Jewish theology concerning the messiah

[chrisb]

Peace be with you SSV,

May God continue to bless and keep safe the Children of Abraham and Moses. Amen.

I read quite I bit of the links you offered and although, as a Catholic and a Christian, I can’t agree with this interpretation of Jesus Christ I see how one of Jewish descent could offer argument against the Christain Claims that Jesus of Nazareth was the Christ. As the Catholic Church instructs us “not” to engage in evangelical dialog with the Children of Abraham and Moses I will only say that without the teachings of Jesus in my life, I don’t think I would be the man I am today. Christianity bridged a great divide between the Semitic World and that of the Pagan World of the Romans and offered to the ‘Gentiles’ the ethical and moral foundations of the Semitic World. Although at times this caused great strive within our culture as the two very different value-systems clashed, it brought a great many of the world the knowledge of the Judaic God, the one and only God. I can be very proud and happy for that.

Peace, Love and Blessings,

 

[cabaret]

Higher or equal to what and about what, Greg? To the Jewish mind, valuable insights into the agunah question (divorced/abandoned wives and remarriage, in particular circumstances) or ways of ‘koshering’ a lettuce – in other words, legal argument about The Law.

Messiah’s interpretations would be arguable, just as everything always has been and is.

 

[chrisb]

Peace be with you Cabaret,

May God continue to bless the Children of Abraham and Moses. Amen.

What do you know about “The Path of the Righteous Gentile: An Introduction of the Children of Noah”?

PS: Are either you or SSV Rabbis?

Peace, Continued Love and Blessings,

 

[cabaret]

chrisb:

What do you know about “The Path of the Righteous Gentile: An Introduction of the Children of Noah”?

Nothing, I’m afraid - I’m really here to understand how Catholic Christians see/believe things (I’ve come into contact mainly with Protestants and wanted to know the difference).

PS: Are either you or SSV Rabbis?

Ooops, no, I’m just another argumentative Jewess!

Peace, Continued Love and Blessings,

And to you, of course.

 

[Ghosty]

As the Catholic Church instructs us “not” to engage in evangelical dialog with the Children of Abraham and Moses I will only say that without the teachings of Jesus in my life, I don’t think I would be the man I am today

I don’t believe this is true. The Church doesn’t teach that we shouldn’t evangelize Jews, only that we should be prudent about it. It’s actually heretical to suggest that Jews shouldn’t be evangelized; Jesus himself evangelized specifically to Jews.

 

[chrisb]

Ghosty:

I don’t believe this is true. The Church doesn’t teach that we shouldn’t evangelize Jews, only that we should be prudent about it. It’s actually heretical to suggest that Jews shouldn’t be evangelized; Jesus himself evangelized specifically to Jews.

Peace be with you Ghosty,

May God offer us insight and understanding. Amen.

As I am just finishing up two weeks in RCIA I don’t desire to be heretical just yet.

If I am mistaken I would humbly recant any errors, friend but I am pretty sure that it has something to do with the Churches position on the Coventant Jews have through Abraham and Moses. As I understand it, only Presbyrtians claim that the Church inherented the Covenant. I could be mistaken but I think it has something to do with that.

Anyone else know anything about this? Help is needed.

Peace, Love and Blessings,

 

[Greg_McPherran]

Hi Cabaret,

Note: I noticed to alluded to Protestant vs. Catholic understanding. I can briefly tell you that a key difference is that Catholics believe that our practices and beliefs are a direct continuation of the Church of the Apostles that included Peter and Paul. Our belief that our communion is the true and real presence of Jesus is also an important belief that Protestants do not share as they see the communion bread as symbolic. To explore this further, you could always start a thread on Catholicism and Protestantism. I would be happy to discuss there also.

cabaret:

Messiah’s interpretations would be arguable, just as everything always has been and is.

Psalm 110:1 The LORD says to you, my lord: “Take your throne at my righthand, while I make your enemies your footstool.”

How do you understand the phrase “The LORD says to you, my lord”. Do you think that this refers to the Messiah?

Greg

 

[Ghosty]

The Church teaches that the Covenant is still binding on non-Christian Jews, but that the Covenant is not a Saving Covenant. In other words, any Jew that is saved is saved through Christ and not by God’s Covenant with Abraham. Jews hold a special relationship with God, and the hope for the Messiah that is upheld by faithful Jews is viewed by many in the Church as being a true devotion to Christ, albeit an unintentional one, but the fact remains that it is Christ that saves all people, and Jews are no different.

What this all boils down to is that it’s definately our duty to evangelize Jews just like everyone else, but we must do so carefully and with deep respect to the fact that they are in a special Covenant with God, and are still part of the People of God. Any evangelization should also be done with careful respect to the fact that Jews have been historically abused by forceful “evagelization” attempts, and are rightfully weary of such “tender approaches” by Christians.

The American Bishops did issue a statement saying that Jews should not be evangelized because they were already saved by the Abrahamic Covenant, but that was quickly withdrawn under heavy protest by orthodox Catholics, espescially those of Jewish blood themselves. For Jews who are Catholic, such a statement is like saying “Yeah, the Messiah that the People of Israel have been awaiting for millenia has come, but we don’t need to tell them about it,” and it’s obvious why that would be an unpopular stance among Jewish Catholics.

Incidently, I came to Catholicism by way of studying and approaching Orthodox Judaism, and I came to believe in Christ as the Messiah due to my readings of Orthodox expectations of the Messiah, so I have both a deep respect for Judaism, and a strong belief that Jews should be invited into the Church with open arms, and encouraged (politely) to learn about Christ and why we believe he was the Messiah, and how He did indeed fulfill the Prophesies. It’s important to remember that the expectations on the Messiah that persist in Modern Judaism were not universal to Ancent Judaism, and a large segment of Jews became Christians precisely because they viewed him as fulfilling the Prophecies, including Paul who was a learned Pharisee. Those Jews who were left obviously held a different view on what the Messiah would be, and they are the ones who have carried the torch of Judaism into the modern day.

 

[cabaret]

Greg

To explore this further, you could always start a thread on Catholicism and Protestantism. I would be happy to discuss there also.

I wouldn’t dare, Greg, I think I know too little to start the kind of thread that would imply some understanding on my part and too much to start one that would be purely innocent (by which I mean ‘without knowledge of’ rather than ‘of mischievous intent’!). I’m happy just to read along.

Psalm 110:1 The LORD says to you, my lord: “Take your throne at my righthand, while I make your enemies your footstool.”

How do you understand the phrase “The LORD says to you, my lord”. Do you think that this refers to the Messiah?

Well, Greg, here are (hopefully) helpful links:

From Messiah Truth

and from Outreach Judaism.

I do hope that we’re not going to enter the world of cascading text interpretations!

 

[hlgomez]

Cabaret,

Greg is qouting from Scriptures and he asks if what Scriptures says in that particular passage is referring to the Messiah. Yes or no? Explain.

Pio

 

[cabaret]

hlgomez:

Cabaret,

Greg is qouting from Scriptures and he asks if what Scriptures says in that particular passage is referring to the Messiah. Yes or no? Explain.

Pio

Er, that’s what the links were for.

 

[hlgomez]

Er, that’s what the links were for.

Sorry, just wanna hear from the very words of the person, not on links. Anyways, why then, did David called him “lord” if the Messiah is his son? Is the Messiah, then, greater than David?

PS. And BTW, for info., we Catholics don’t use King James Version.

Pio

 

[cabaret]

hlgomez:

Sorry, just wanna hear from the very words of the person, not on links. Anyways, why then, did David called him “lord” if the Messiah is his son? Is the Messiah, then, greater than David?

PS. And BTW, for info., we Catholics don’t use King James Version.

Pio

In that case, I’m sorry, I’d no intention of getting into a Catholic version of one of those endless “Face The Challenge Of Jesus” events that one gets so used to when around Protestant Evangelicals – you know, page-by-page through Josh McDowell’s “Evidence That Demands A Verdict” (or whatever).

If you’re not happy with the links then, again, I apologize.

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Greg, you posted:

Is the Messiah considered to be equal or higher than these sages? In others words, does the teaching of the Messiah have more authority and carry more weight than these and other sages?

That will depend on his scholarship.

Chrisb, you posted:

Although at times this caused great strive within our culture as the two very different value-systems clashed, it brought a great many of the world the knowledge of the Judaic God, the one and only God. I can be very proud and happy for that.

Hmm…interesting point.

What do you know about “The Path of the Righteous Gentile: An Introduction of the Children of Noah”?

PS: Are either you or SSV Rabbis?

1. See jewfaq.org/gentiles.htm.
2. Me…a rabbi? In terms of my faith, I’m an unlettered yokel. Thanks for the compliment though!

Be well!

ssv

 

[hlgomez]

In that case, I’m sorry, I’d no intention of getting into a Catholic version of one of those endless “Face The Challenge Of Jesus” events that one gets so used to when around Protestant Evangelicals – you know, page-by-page through Josh McDowell’s “Evidence That Demands A Verdict” (or whatever).

If you’re not happy with the links then, again, I apologize.

I’m happy with the link that you’ve shown. But it doesn’t give me a fuller explanation why you view Scriptures like this or that. We use the same Scripture, but our human nature tends to interpret Scripture the way we like. The Lord Jesus Christ established His Church to guide us in the interpretation of Scriptures. We can’t find eternal life in Scriptures, but we put our trust in Him who rose from the dead and was written of in the Scriptures.

Pio

 

[chrisb]

Ghosty:

The American Bishops did issue a statement saying that Jews should not be evangelized because they were already saved by the Abrahamic Covenant, but that was quickly withdrawn under heavy protest by orthodox Catholics, espescially those of Jewish blood themselves. For Jews who are Catholic, such a statement is like saying “Yeah, the Messiah that the People of Israel have been awaiting for millenia has come, but we don’t need to tell them about it,” and it’s obvious why that would be an unpopular stance among Jewish Catholics.

Peace be with you Ghosty,

May God continue to guide us to greater wisdom. Amen.

Much thanks to you, Ghosty, for that very thorough response. I did a little research on this as well, with some help from Greg_McPherran (thanks a bunch, Greg!) and we discovered that it wasn’t the American Bishops who posted this “reflection” by the “Bishops Committee for Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs” on August 12, 2002. They later realized the error and removed it from the site. Greg_McPherran has a link to a complete explantion.

Peace, Love and Blessings,

 

[chrisb]

Peace be with you SSV,

I kindly thank you for the link you offered and I read about the Seven Laws of Noah. Do you recognize that Christian practice these Seven Laws or do you feel that we as a religious people fail to observe them completely and if you could be so kind, please explain your answers. Thank you very much.

May G-d continue to bless the Children of Abraham and Moses. Amen. (I removed the complete spelling so as not to offend.)

Peace, Love and Blessings,

 

[cabaret]

hlgomez:

I’m happy with the link that you’ve shown. But it doesn’t give me a fuller explanation why you view Scriptures like this or that. We use the same Scripture, but our human nature tends to interpret Scripture the way we like. The Lord Jesus Christ established His Church to guide us in the interpretation of Scriptures. We can’t find eternal life in Scriptures, but we put our trust in Him who rose from the dead and was written of in the Scriptures.

Pio

Ah, I’ve written about this topic here before but I’m sure SSV would do a much better job.

Judaism is centered on Torah - The Law - that’s its focus and everything else could be described as commentary (insights and arguments about The Law). It’s far, far more concerned with “this world” than “the world to come”.

 

[Greg_McPherran]

Hello Cabaret and SSV,

The focus of Christianity is our eternal life with God and this far surpasses any concerns about earthly kingdoms which are clearly temporary. Our human nature is fallen. The Messiah offers us eternal life with Him and He taught us that God is His Father and ours. He taught us that He and the Holy Spirit are one with God. The Holy Spirit is referred to in the prophet Isaiah.

If the Messiah (in your view) were to come and restore Israel and meet other expectations, this from a Christian view would be worthless if it did not lead to eternal life in Heaven with God. So yes, the Messiah, Jesus (as we firmly believe), did teach us that our union with God eclipses all concerns about earthly kingdoms. To us it makes perfect sense for the Messiah to raise our minds to the truth about God and His love and to invite the whole human race to the blessings offered to His original chosen people (a people that I believe Jesus still calls today like a shepherd calls His sheep).

Jesus even said that He came first for the Jewish people. Such is God’s faithfulness to His promises. Jesus loves you and offers you eternal life with Him. This is the Messiah. The Messiah has gone far beyond earthly promises to eternal promises. You see, I think there is a fuller depth and meaning to the prophecies.

However, we are also to do God’s work on earth to establish His kingdom here by showing love and kindness to all and helping all to live well materially with justice (without excessive selfishness as we Americans of all faiths are all prone to today).

He died and rose to bring humans to life. He offers this to you, me, and all people. In fact He offered it first to your chosen people. We believe that indeed the Jewish people were chosen by God.

His flesh is flesh born of Spirit and ours is flesh born of flesh. He remained united with God while in the flesh yet we have lost our perfect union with God and this is why we die physically.

St. Paul was a devout Jew who literally approved the killing of Christian(s) and he saw Christianity as a great enemy to Judaism. He was a great scholar of the law. Later, he said he counts it as “rubbish” compared to His new life in the Messiah. (I don’t think he meant “rubbish” to be disrespectful but to show that his life is now Jesus. Such is the (unexpected) power of the Messiah.

The New Testament is written by inspired men almost all (if not all) of them Jewish (as far as I know).

Greg

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Chrisb, you posted:

I kindly thank you for the link you offered and I read about the Seven Laws of Noah. Do you recognize that Christian practice these Seven Laws or do you feel that we as a religious people fail to observe them completely and if you could be so kind, please explain your answers. Thank you very much.

Aside from the jury being out on whether or not icons, crucifixes (crosses the the crucified Jesus on them), statues & paintings and the like constitute idolatry or not, Christians pretty much meet the 7 Precepts of Noah.

You’re welcome!

I’ll say the following:

Torah is a cognate of the Hebrew root *h-r-h *(heh-resh-heh). The Hebrew words for “instruction/direction” (hora’ah), “teacher” (moreh) and "parent (horeh) are all cognates of the same root.

One of our Sages (please don’t ask me which!) once said that if the Torah was merely a statute book, we would have very little, if any, use for the Book of Genesis, in which we orthodox Jews count only 3 of the Torah’s 613 precepts (anyone care to hazard a guess what they are?).

Aside from being just plain wrong, translating Torah as Law (I’m a Hebrew-to-English translator with 11.5 years’ experience) merely helps to perpetuate the canard that Judaism is a casuistic religion of laws, to be carried out in automaton-like fashion.

Be well!

ssv