Jewish theology concerning the messiah

[chrisb]

stillsmallvoice:

Aside from the jury being out on whether or not icons, crucifixes (crosses the the crucified Jesus on them), statues & paintings and the like constitute idolatry or not, Christians pretty much meet the 7 Precepts of Noah.

Peace be with you SSV,

Actually, this is a pretty good point and one that I labored long over as a Protestant. What finally put to rest my concerns was reading the Old Testament (i.e. Torah) description of the Ark of the Covenant complete with carvings of “Angels”. I also recalled Solomon’s Temple decorated with “statues”. G-d was pleased with Solomon’s work and I pray that He is pleased with the work of Holy Mother Church.

Torah is a cognate of the Hebrew root *h-r-h *(heh-resh-heh). The Hebrew words for “instruction/direction” (hora’ah), “teacher” (moreh) and "parent (horeh) are all cognates of the same root.

One of our Sages (please don’t ask me which!) once said that if the Torah was merely a statute book, we would have very little, if any, use for the Book of Genesis, in which we orthodox Jews count only 3 of the Torah’s 613 precepts (anyone care to hazard a guess what they are?).

Aside from being just plain wrong, translating Torah as Law (I’m a Hebrew-to-English translator with 11.5 years’ experience) merely helps to perpetuate the canard that Judaism is a casuistic religion of laws, to be carried out in automaton-like fashion.

Be well!

ssv

Wow, this is wonderful news, I hope to learn a bit from you, friend. Wow, a translator that is really something.

May G-d continue to Bless you. Amen.

Peace, Love and Blessings,

 

[Greg_McPherran]

Hi Cabaret,

Regarding Psalm 110:1 :

To Catholics, Jesus is the light referred to in Isaiah. He helps us understand Scripture. You have indicated respectful interest of Catholicism so hopefully I am helping. No need to discuss further about that passage unless you wish to.

Greg

 

[cabaret]

You have indicated respectful interest of Catholicism so hopefully I am helping. No need to discuss further about that passage unless you wish to.

Yes, sorry Greg, sometimes our instincts about the possibility of somebody trying to evangelize us may make us a bit knee-jerk.

I recognize that it’s almost entirely my fault for not making clear just why I’m interested in Catholicism at all which could lead people to false assumptions. The real reason is what I suppose could be regarded as the rather materialistic one that we’re moving to a ‘Culturally Catholic’ country (one where, if people are religious, they’re most likely to be Catholic) and it’s part of a series of things I’m doing to get some insight before we go.

In other words, I’m planning to get on with the neighbors

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Chrisb, you posted:

What finally put to rest my concerns was reading the Old Testament (i.e. Torah) description of the Ark of the Covenant complete with carvings of “Angels”. I also recalled Solomon’s Temple decorated with “statues”. G-d was pleased with Solomon’s work…

We cite the “10 Commandments” (we count 15 separate precepts in the “10 Commandments”) and conclude that God has forbidden us from believing in idols, from bowing to them and from worshipping them in any manner whatsoever. We constructed a brass snake because God told us to in that specific instance. We put cherubim on top of the Ark of the Covenant because He told us to in that specific instance. Some images are OK, because God says they are. Some images are bad because God says they are. We did not worship/adore the cherubim. That would be a big no-no; we do not worship graven images because He tells us not to. God is our Commander & we obey His commands in any case.

The brass serpent fashioned by Moses appears one more time in the Tanakh, in II Kings 18:4, where we are told that the righteous King Hezekiah

broke in pieces the brazen serpent that Moses had made; for unto those days the children of Israel did offer to it…

Our Sages praise King Hezekiah for smashing Moses’ brass serpent. Our great medieval Sage, Rabbi David Kimche ( us-israel.org/jsource/biography/Kimchi.html ) writes:

Because they [the people] saw that it was written “when he looks upon it, he shall live”, they thought that it would be good to worship it as an intermediary. Since the days of Moses, it had served as a memorial of the miracle, like the jar of manna (see Exodus 16:33)…Hezekiah thought to destroy it when he destroyed the instruments of idol worship because in his father’s time, they [the people] worshipped it. Even though it was good to use it to remember the miracle, he said ‘It would be better to destroy it and forget the miracle than leave it and have the children of Israel go astray after it today or tomorrow.’

(Rabbi Kimche explains that righteous Kings Asa and Jehosaphat didn’t destroy it when they purged the Land of idolatry because we weren’t worshipping it then.)

Be well!

ssv

 

[chrisb]

stillsmallvoice:

Hi all!

Chrisb, you posted:

We cite the “10 Commandments” (we count 15 separate precepts in the “10 Commandments”) and conclude that God has forbidden us from believing in idols, from bowing to them and from worshipping them in any manner whatsoever. We constructed a brass snake because God told us to in that specific instance. We put cherubim on top of the Ark of the Covenant because He told us to in that specific instance. Some images are OK, because God says they are. Some images are bad because God says they are. We did not worship/adore the cherubim. That would be a big no-no; we do not worship graven images because He tells us not to. God is our Commander & we obey His commands in any case.

The brass serpent fashioned by Moses appears one more time in the Tanakh, in II Kings 18:4, where we are told that the righteous King Hezekiah Our Sages praise King Hezekiah for smashing Moses’ brass serpent. Our great medieval Sage, Rabbi David Kimche ( us-israel.org/jsource/biography/Kimchi.html ) writes: (Rabbi Kimche explains that righteous Kings Asa and Jehosaphat didn’t destroy it when they purged the Land of idolatry because we weren’t worshipping it then.)

Be well!

ssv

Peace be with you SSV,

May G-d bless you for you presence here. Amen.

Let me humbly say that it is not within my understanding that we (Catholics) worship idols or even pray to statues. We venerate in art the sacred scriptures to bring it into the present via a different medium than text and song (although I dare say we do a good job with both of them as well). The statues of saints and of Jesus Christ have no inherent value outside of what they point to through our senses in the same fashion that the text of the Scriptures have no inherent value than what they point to of G-d’s revelation and our understanding of it. I noted that you didn’t comment on the decor of Solomon’s Temple? What do you know of the details of his Temple?

Pace, Love and Blessings,

 

[Greg_McPherran]

Hi Cabaret,

cabaret:

Yes, sorry Greg, sometimes our instincts about the possibility of somebody trying to evangelize us may make us a bit knee-jerk.

Oh, no problem at all. Actually, I didn’t have that perspective, I just wanted you to know that I didn’t want to persist in discussing that Scripture unless you wished to.

cabaret:

The real reason is what I suppose could be regarded as the rather materialistic one that we’re moving to a ‘Culturally Catholic’

We Catholics are concerned that those who call themselves Catholic do not follow some Church teachings (which come from Jesus). Sometimes we refer to such Catholics as “Cultural Catholic”. So there is an additional meaning of the term “Cultural Catholic”.

Greg

 

[cabaret]

Hey Greg

Greg_McPherran:

We Catholics are concerned that those who call themselves Catholic do not follow some Church teachings (which come from Jesus). Sometimes we refer to such Catholics as “Cultural Catholic”. So there is an additional meaning of the term “Cultural Catholic”.

I meant it in just that sense (I’m learning, you see), it’s culturally about as Catholic as you can get but no longer in terms of observance. To me it’s like learning the language itself - you have to learn the cultural ‘signs’. It’s rather like if you moved to Israel - learning Hebrew would only be one of the things to come to terms with.

I am looking forward to it a lot.

 

[Raphael]

Jesus himself said, " I did not come to destroy the old law, but to fulfill it." We as Christians believe that Jesus did fulfill the entire covenant from God to Abraham. He did so in the way that best suited Him.

Perhaps as many as fifty percent of the Jewish people existing at that time did concede to Jesus being the true Messiah and decided to follow Him. Those who did not constitute the ancestors of the Jewish people of today.

We are reminded that Peter the Apostle called the Jew’s that did not follow the Messiah Jesus Christ, “A Faithless People.” This was not meant as a judgement on the strength of their faith but pointed out that a covenant that is fulfilled is ended. There is a new covenant. It does not replace the old covenant, because the old covenant was fulfilled and completed. This is an entirely new covenant freely given by God to us to direct us to him.

 

[Shoshana]

Stillsmallvoice,

OK, I am here for my beer. Time for a chat?

This just fuels my fire of love for the Divine. Jesus was Jewish and since I love him Him dearly as many do who post, I love to learn more about His heritage.

I do have a question though. How do you explain the so many similarities of Moses with Jesus?

Also, we Catholics have been accused of idolatry by a zillion denominations. All are very symbolic (especially when it comes to the Sacrifice of the Mass) and the priests involved. Everything is based on Hebrew symbolism. And without causing offense (as you would understand my heart as we have met before), many of your rituals are based on paganistic rituals. I realize that God has asked the Israelites to do so. I am just interested in your interpretation of this.

Blessings,
Shoshana

 

[Shoshana]

Please be aware that I am not supposing that the Sacrifice of the Mass is symbolic, as we Catholics believe it is the Real Presence, but I meant that it is symbolic of the Hebraic rituals or built on Hebraic rituals.

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Chrisb, you posted:

I noted that you didn’t comment on the decor of Solomon’s Temple? What do you know of the details of his Temple?

Well, there were the cherubim on top of the Holy Ark, as well as on the wall of the First Temple. See jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=434&letter=C&search=cherubim.

Our Sages comment on Numbers 4:19 & note how it specifically bars anyone from:

“…going in to see the holy things as they are being covered, lest they die.”

Among the aforementioned “holy things” were, of course, the cherubim atop the holy ark.

Yet the Talmud tells us that:

When the Israelites came up [to the First Temple in Jerusalem] on the Pilgrim Festivals, the curtainwould be removed for them and the cherubim shown to them, their bodies intertlocked with one another, and they [the priests] would say to them: ‘Look, you are beloved before God as the love between man and woman.’

Our Sages note the seeming contradiction and ask that if the cherubim atop the ark in the Tabernacle in the wilderness were off-limits to public view as they were being covered & uncovered, how could the priests in the Temple in Jerusalem purposely expose them to public view?

A rabbi back in our old neighborhood in Jerusalem explained it by means of an analogy to a married couple. When a husband & wife are newly-married, they will find dressing/undressing in each other’s company and being in each other’s intimate company awkward at first (especially if they come from conservative backgrounds, such as that of orthodox Judaism, in which any contact, let alone intimate contact, between the sexes is very, very limited & when such contact is very new to the newlyweds). It may take them a while before they are used to it (it certainly did for DW & myself). But once the couple have been together for a while, they become comfortable in each other’s (especially intimate) presence & will find it very natural to dress/undress in each other’s presence. So, my rabbi said, when we were in the wilderness, our intimacy with God was very new and, hence, awkward; thus great care had to be taken when covering & uncovering the cherubim. But by the time we built the Temple in Jerusalem, we had become comfortable in God’s intimate presence; thus, the cherubim were open to view; such close intimacy with God had, by then, become natural.

Our Sages teach that when God was angry at us, the cherubim faced away from each other, but that when He was pleased with us, they would not only face other, but be intertwined in an embrace of love.

Shoshana, you posted:

OK, I am here for my beer. Time for a chat?

Sure!

How do you explain the so many similarities of Moses with Jesus?

Such as?

And without causing offense…

No prob’! No sincerely asked, honest question can be offensive.

…many of your rituals are based on paganistic rituals. I realize that God has asked the israelites to do so.

Yoo’ve answered your question: We do as God has commanded us. That pagan cultures may do similar things is [co-]incidental.

I understand the point that you & Chrisb have made regarding the Catholic use/veneration of sacred images. However, we believe that God has forbidden us from engaging in such practices (in addition to out-and-out idolatry, i.e. worshipping Baal, Zeus, etc.). We believe that He has commanded us to direct our thoughts, prayers & hearts directly to Him, unaided & unassisted by any images of any kind.

Be well!

ssv

 

[cabaret]

Raphael:
Perhaps as many as fifty percent of the Jewish people existing at that time did concede to Jesus being the true Messiah and decided to follow Him.
Perhaps a few dozen, perhaps 0.00637%, perhaps 23%, . . . .

Perhaps 97.564% thought it complete nonsense, perhaps only 37.567% thought it not complete nonsense but were given to being charitable, perhaps 1% percent thought it should be left up to a Catholic Answers Poll in a couple of millennia.

 

[Greg_McPherran]

Hi SSV,

stillsmallvoice:

We believe that He has commanded us to direct our thoughts, prayers & hearts directly to Him, unaided & unassisted by any images of any kind.

Aren’t the scrolls of the Torah brought out during services an image that reminds people that God gave His Word to your people? Even the text of Scripture on a page whether it be Hebrew, English, or any language are “images” that remind us and cause us to think about God.

I also seem to recall seeing images of a Bush in Jewish temples. I think this represents the Burning Bush, true? Does not this remind us that God spoke to Moses?

So therefore whether it is the visible Torah scrolls, a statue of the Burning Bush, the textual symbols YWVH and Adonai, or a statue of Jesus (for Christians), what is the difference?

Greg

 

[Evan]

chrisb:

As the Catholic Church instructs us “not” to engage in evangelical dialog with the Children of Abraham and Moses

Actually, what the church teaches concerning the Jews is that

“on historical and theological grounds that there should be in the Church no organizations of any kind dedicated to the conversion of Jews.”

This does not inidicate, no attempt at conversation, conversion, or acceptance of Jews who, as individuals, which to find out more about the Church or wish to convert. Similarly we have no organizations that target protestants, muslims, hindus, native americans, blacks, or martians. We give the teachings of the Church to all people as individuals, not as classes specifically targeted for conversion. The gospel is for all, not just the Jews.

 

[Shoshana]

OK, stillsmallvoice, time to schmooze! We must do this before your Shabbat my friend! I am serving beer with pretzels (all kosher of course).

The Similarites of Moses and Jesus Christ

1. Both Moses and Jesus were born in a period when Israel was under foreign rule.
   ‘Now there arose a new king over Egypt, who did not know Joseph…Therefore they set taskmasters over them to afflict them with their burdens. And they built for Pharaoh supply cities, Pithon and Raamses’ (Ex 1-8, 11).

‘And it came to pass in those days that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world whould be registered. This census first too place while Quirinius was governing Syria. So all went to be registered, everyone in his own city. Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, because he was of the house and lineage of David, to be registered with Mary, his bethrothed wife, who was with child’ (Luke 2: 1-5).

1. Cruel kings decided that both Moses and Jesus should be killed as infants.
   ‘The the king of Egypt spoke to the Hebrew midwives, of whom the name of one was Shiphrah and the name of the other was Puah; and he said, ‘When you do the duties of a midwife for the Hebrew women, and see them on the birthstools, if it is a son, then you shall kill him; but if it is a daughter, then she shall live.’ But the midwives feared God, and did not do as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the male children alive.’ (Ex 1:15-17)

‘The Herod…was exceedingly angry; and he sent forth and put to death all the male children who were in Bethleem and in all districts, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had determined from the wise men.’ (Matt 2:16)

The faith of both Moses’ and Jesus’ parents saved their lives.
‘So the woman (the mother of Moses) conceived and bore a son. And when she saw that he was a beautiful child, she hid him three months. But when she could no longer hide him, she took an ark of bulrushes for him, daubed it with asphalt and pitch, put the child in it, and laid it in the reeds by the river’s bank. And his sister stood afar off, to know what would be done to him.’ (Ex 2: 2-4)
‘By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king’s command.’ (Heb 11: 23)

‘Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying ‘Arise, take the young Child (Jesus) and His mother, flee to Egypt, and stay there until I bring you word; for Herod will seek the young Child to destroy Him.’ Ehe he arose, he took the young Child and His mother by night and departed for Egypt.’ (Matt 2: 13-14)

will be back…:bounce:

 

[Shoshana]

1. Both Moses and Jesus found protection for a time with the people of Egypt.

‘And the child grew, and she brought him ot pharaoh’s daughter, and he became her son. So she called his name Moses, saying, "Because i drew him out of the water’ (Ex 2:10).
'When he arose, he took the young Child (Jesus) and His mother by night and departed for Egypt, and was there until the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, ‘Out of Egypt I called My Son’ (Matt 2:15-15)

1. Both Moses and Jesus’ cgaracters were marked by meekness and humility.

‘And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was migthy in words and deeds’ (Acts 7:22)
‘Now so it was that after three days they found Him (Jesus) in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them and asking them questions. And all who heard Him were astonished at His understanding and answers.’ (Luke 2:46-47).

1. Both Moses and Jesus were completely faithful to God.

‘My servant Moses…is faithful in all My house.’ (Num 12:7).
‘Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house. For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant , for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end’ (Heb 3:1-6)

to be continued

 

[chrisb]

Greg_McPherran:

Hi SSV,

Aren’t the scrolls of the Torah brought out during services an image that reminds people that God gave His Word to your people? Even the text of Scripture on a page whether it be Hebrew, English, or any language are “images” that remind us and cause us to think about God.

I also seem to recall seeing images of a Bush in Jewish temples. I think this represents the Burning Bush, true? Does not this remind us that God spoke to Moses?

So therefore whether it is the visible Torah scrolls, a statue of the Burning Bush, the textual symbols YWVH and Adonai, or a statue of Jesus (for Christians), what is the difference?

Greg

Peace be with you Greg,

May God bring to greater insight and understanding. Amen.

As you know idolatry is not about statues, pictures or symbols. All are merely references that “point to something” be it a being, an idea or a place. References manifest awareness of the Object of which they point. Idolatry is the elevation of the “Reference” to the status of the “Object” of which they point. Clearly “we” as Catholics with a rich tradition of references should be aware of the dangers of idolatry within of practice but just because we have a rich tradition of references does not condemn us of idolatry except on the crudest level of it’s understanding. As a convert, I’ve come to understand this and I’ve come to appreciate the richness of our traditions but I respect and recognize the caution that must be maintained within such rich references in our faith.

I have spent several years in ecumenical dialog with Muslims who practice the same limit on non-textural references to the divine and although I completely understand and respect their practice I come to understand it to be cultural limit derived by reverence and I can respect and honor that.

Peace, Love and Blessings,

 

[Shoshana]

1. Both Moses and Jesus were rejected by Israel for a time.
   'And when (Moses) went out the second day, behold, two Hebrew men were fighting, and he said to the one who did the wrong, ‘Why are you striking your companion?’ The he said (to Moses), ‘Who made you a prince and a judge over us?’ (Ex 2:13-14)
   'Now when the people saw that Moses delayed coming down from the mountain, the people gathered together to Aaron, and said to him, ‘Come, make us gods that shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man who brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him’ (Ex 32:1)

'The governor answered and said to them, ‘Which of the two do you want me to release to you?’ They said, ‘Barrabas!’ Pilate said to them, ‘What then shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?’ They all said to him, ‘Let Him be crucidied!’ (Matt 27:21-22)

1. Both Moses and Jesus were criticized by their brothers and sisters.
   ‘Then Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Ethipian woman whom he had married; for he had married an Ethiopian woman’ (Num 12:1).
   ‘For even His (Jesus’) brothers did not believe in Him’ (John 7:5).
2. Both Moses and Jesus were received by Gentiles after being rejected by Israel.
   ‘Moses fled (Egypt) and dwelt in the land of Midian…Then Moses was content to live with the man (Reuel, and he gave Zipporah his daughter to Moses’ (Ex2:15, 21).

'On the next Sabbath almost the whole city (Jerusalem) came together to hear the word of God. But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspeheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul. Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, ‘It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. For so the Lord has commanded us; ‘I have set you as a light to the Gentiles, that you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.’ Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord (Jesus). And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.’ (Acts 13:44-48).

will be seeing ya in a minute…

 

[Shoshana]

1. Both Moses and Jesus prayed asking forgiveness for God’s people.
   'The Moses returned to the LORD and said, ‘Oh, these people have committed a great sin, and have made for themselves a gold of gold! Yet now, if You will forgive their sin–but if not–I pray, blot me out of Your book which You have written’ (Ex 32:31-32).
2. Both Moses and Jesus were willing to bear the punishment for God’s people.
   'Then Moses returned to the Lord and said, ‘Oh, these people have committed a great sin, and have made for themselves a god of gold! Yet, now, if You will forgive their sin–but if not, I pray, blot me out of Your book which You have written’ (Ex 32:31-32)

"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit’ (1Pet3:18).

1. Both Moses and Jesus endured a forty-day fast.
   ‘So he (Moses) was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments’ (Ex34:28)
   ‘And when He (Jesus) had fasted forty days and forty nights, afterward He was hungry’ (Matt 4:2)

 

[Shoshana]

1. Both Moses and Jesus spoke with God face-to-face.
   ‘Not so with my servant Moses; He is faithful in all My house. I speak with him face-to-face, evne plainly, and not in dark sayings; and he sees the form of the LORD’ (Num12:7-8)
   ‘But since then there has not risen in Israel a prophet like Moses, whom the lORD knew face-to-face’ (Deut 34:10)

‘No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son (Jesus), who is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared Him’ (John1:18).

1. Both Moses and Jesus went up to a high mountain to have communion with God, taking some of their closest followers with them.
   ‘Then Moses went up (to Mount Sinai), also Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity’ (Ex 24:9-10).

'Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves…While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, ‘This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!’ (Matt17:1,5).

1. After their mountaintop experiences both Moses’ and Jesus’ faces shone with supernatural glory.
   ‘But whenever Moses went in before the LORD to speak with him, he would take the veil off until he came out; and he would come out and speak to the children of Israel whatever he had been commanded. And whenever the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses’ face shone, then Moses would put the veil on his face again, until he went in to speak with Him’ (Ex34:34,35)

‘And he (Jesus) was transfigured before them. His Face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light’ (Matt17:2)