Jewish theology concerning the messiah

[Greg_McPherran]

Hello Chris,

chrisb:

Idolatry is the elevation of the “Reference” to the status of the “Object” of which they point.

I think you meant vice versa i.e.: ‘Idolatry is the elevation of the “object” to the status of the “reference” to which they point.’ Yes, I understand that. Perhaps you misunderstood my previous post. The point of my previous post to SSV was to show that it seems that Judaism has symbols that serve an analogous purpose as Christian symbols. What is the difference between Judaism and Christianity regarding the concept of images/symbols?

Greg

 

[Shoshana]

I forgot #5…please forgive me!

1. Both Moses and Jesus displayed unusual wisdom and understanding.
   ‘And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and deeds’ (Acts 7:22).
   ‘Now so it was that after three days they found Him (Jesus) in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them and asking them questions. And all who heard Him were astonished at His understanding and answers.’ (Luke 2:46-47)

Blessings,
Shoshana

 

[Shoshana]

1. God spoke audibly from heaven to both Moses and Jesus
   ‘Moses spoke, and God answered him by voice. Then the LORD came down upon Mount Sinai, on the top of the mountain. And the lORD called Moses to the top of the mountain, and moses went up’ (Ex 19:19-20)
   'But Jesus answered them, saying, ‘The hour has come that the Son of Man should be glorified…Father, glorify thy Name.’ Then a voice came down from heaven, saying, ‘I have both glorified it and will glorify it again’ (John 12:23, 28)
2. Both Moses’ and Jesus’ places of burial were attended by angels.
   'Yet Michael the archangeal, in conetending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, 'The Lord rebuke you! (Jude 9)
   'And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat on it…But the angel answered and said to the women, ‘Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. He is not here; for He is risen, as He said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay’ (Matt 28:2, 5-5)
3. Both Moses and Jesus appeared alive after their deaths.
   ‘And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them (Jesus, Peter, James, and John), talking with him’ (Matt 17:3)
   ‘Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus (after hisdeath, burial, and resurrection) came and stood in the midst, and said to them, ‘Peace be with you.’ When He had said this, He showed them his hands and His side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord’ (John 20:19,20)

Nighty night…

 

[Greg_McPherran]

Hello Chris,

Greg_McPherran:

I think you meant vice versa i.e.: ‘Idolatry is the elevation of the “object” to the status of the “reference” to which they point.’

Note: Actually I see you did have it right - I confused “object” with the symbol but now I see you meant “object” as Whom the symbol points to.

So your statement: “Idolatry is the elevation of the reference to the status of the object to which they point.” is correct and yes, I do understand that.

Please see my previous two posts.

Greg

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Lessee, Greg, you posted:

Aren’t the scrolls of the Torah brought out during services an image that reminds people that God gave His Word to your people?

No, I’d say that they’re His actual words.

Images of the burning bush on the walls of a synagogue (only “Reform Jews” have “temples”; traditional, normative Judaism, which is orthodox, recognizes only 3 Temples, the first 2 that were destroyed & the 3rd which will soon be rebuilt) are purely & merely decorative & have no role whatsoever in actual worship.

The “difference”, as you put it, is that we believe that images/representations of God, in any form, are forbidden, as are images/representation of false gods.

Shoshana, thank you for that exhaustive list!

Be well!

ssv

 

[Shoshana]

Oh, but stillsmallvoice, I am not finished. There was another thread started by someone who wanted to know if there was a list of comparisions between Moses and Jesus. I referred him to this thread. So please be patient as I finish this for him specifically… Hey, what about your Shabbat…?

1. Both Moses and Jesus were teachers.
   (Moses is speaking) ‘Now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and judgments which I teach you to observe, that you may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers is giving you’ (Deu 4:1)
   'There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, ‘Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; fo rno one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him’ (John 3:1-2)
2. Both Moses and Jesus were shepherds to God’s people.
   ‘You led Your people like a flock by the hand of Moses and Aaron’ (Ps77:20)
   '(Jesus said,) ‘I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives his life for the sheep…My sheep heart My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me’ (John 10:11,27)

22.Both Moses and Jesus revealed God’s name to his people.
‘Then Moses said to God, "indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?’ And God said to Moses, ‘I AM WHO I AM.’ And He said, 'Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you’ (Ex 3:13-14)
(Jesus prayed): ‘I have manisfested Your name to the men whom You have given me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to me, and they have kept Your word…Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. While I was with them in the world, I kept htem in your name’ (John 17:6, 11-12)

I have 7 more…

 

[Greg_McPherran]

Hello SSV,

I agree that people should never have images/representations of God as objects of worship nor should we consider that these are in way some manifestation of God (that of couse is idolatry).

My point is to show that Christianity is no different than Judaism in that our images are reminders of God and can cause us to think about God.

I think you would agree that The Torah, the Burning Bush, foods used at Passover all can remind people of God and cause them to think of Him.

I am sure many Jewish people upon seeing the image of the Burning Bush are reminded that God spoke to Moses in the Burning Bush.

I am sure many Jewish people upon seeing the Torah are reminded that God gave His word to the Jewish people.

Similarly, a statue or painting of Jesus, reminds us of Him. We would never use such an image as an object of worship.

In concept, I see no difference between Jewish and Christian use of images/statues. Are we in agreement about this?

Greg

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Greg, you posted:

I agree that people should never have images/representations of God as objects of worship nor should we consider that these are in way some manifestation of God (that of couse is idolatry).

Correct.

My point is to show that Christianity is no different than Judaism in that our images are reminders of God and can cause us to think about God.

See below.

I think you would agree that The Torah, the Burning Bush, foods used at Passover all can remind people of God and cause them to think of Him.

I agree.

I am sure many Jewish people upon seeing the image of the Burning Bush are reminded that God spoke to Moses in the Burning Bush.

I agree.

I am sure many Jewish people upon seeing the Torah are reminded that God gave His word to the Jewish people.

I agree.

Similarly, a statue or painting of Jesus, reminds us of Him. We would never use such an image as an object of worship.

In concept, I see no difference between Jewish and Christian use of images/statues. Are we in agreement about this?

I accept that you do not use statues or paintings of Jesus as objects of worship. However, we believe that the Torah forbids us from using images of persons, animals, spiritual/celestial beings, stars, the sun, the moon, etc.even as reminders. We believe that we are forbidden to image, represent or depict God, the angelic host, etc. in any form whatsoever for any purpose whatsoever. Apart from that, we are in agreement.

Be well!

ssv

 

[cabaret]

Shoshana:

Oh, but stillsmallvoice, I am not finished. There was another thread started by someone who wanted to know if there was a list of comparisions between Moses and Jesus. I . . . .

Well, Shoshana, apart from confirming the absolutely amazing ability of your Savior to fulfill any and every achievement of Messiah achievable through text-manipulation (rather than anything anybody might notice otherwise), please explain the Mosaic interludes.

I’ve always enjoyed the ‘deus ex machina’ of getting him to being born Bethlehem, by the way, and the ‘murder of the innocents’ is a truly wonderful touch.

Channah

 

[cabaret]

Greg

I wouldn’t want to argue at all with SSV who is much more able than I am but I’d want to argue that it’s not the iconography that’s the real problem but the making God ‘concrete’ in a *man *(reification) that’s the boundary of a discursive chasm.

 

[Greg_McPherran]

Hi Cabaret,

cabaret:

…I’d want to argue that it’s not the iconography that’s the real problem but the making God ‘concrete’ in a *man *(reification) that’s the boundary of a discursive chasm.

Not sure what you are referring to. Are you referring to our belief in the incarnation, that is, that God became a human being?

Greg

 

[Greg_McPherran]

Hello SSV,

(By the way, I really appreciate the way you clearly and directly address each point/question. It is a pleasure to post to you and Cabaret.)

stillsmallvoice:

However, we believe that the Torah forbids us from using images of persons, animals, spiritual/celestial beings, stars, the sun, the moon, etc.even as reminders.

I’m a bit confused because I thought we agreed that the Torah scrolls and images of the Burning Bush are reminders.

stillsmallvoice:

We believe that we are forbidden to image, represent or depict God, the angelic host, etc. in any form whatsoever for any purpose whatsoever. Apart from that, we are in agreement.

Is this distinguishing between acceptable reminders of God in Judaism and Christianity and images of Jesus Himself which for Christians do depict God become man?

We also sometimes depict the Holy Spirit as a Dove. I am not sure why this is. In fact that is an interesting question.

What about a movie or play in which an actor has the role of Jesus?

I think I am seeing the distinction now. Some of our reminders are more direct whereas yours are indirect. However, I don’t think our images (even of Jesus) claim to reveal the Beatific Vision that we believe we experience if we go to Heaven. So in a way I don’t think our images really attempt to represent God in that sense. Therefore, I think we may not be that different conceptually regarding this.

However, I will say that we believe that God by becoming man has called us not to be afraid of Him and to be bold enough to associate ourselves with Him. This is God’s gift and we are to have humility and respect God. He invites us to consider Him a close Father. God wishes to raise us to union with Himself.

Also, this is further insight into the Christian understanding. St. Paul refers to Jesus as the image of the invisible God. Philip (one of the disciples) aksed Jesus to show them the Father and Jesus in His response included the statement: “Whoever has seen me has seen the Father”. Does this mean that Jesus represents God? Yes, but I think we also believe that in Heaven we will have the full vision of God in our souls.

Exodus 3:2 There an angel of the LORD appeared to him in fire flaming out of a bush.

Exodus 3:4 God called out to him from the bush,…

Since God (or His angel) appeared in the flames of the bush, isn’t an image of the Burning Bush an image of a form that God appeared in?

Thank You,
Greg

 

[Shoshana]

cabaret:

Well, Shoshana, apart from confirming the absolutely amazing ability of your Savior to fulfill any and every achievement of Messiah achievable through text-manipulation (rather than anything anybody might notice otherwise), please explain the Mosaic interludes.

I’ve always enjoyed the ‘deus ex machina’ of getting him to being born Bethlehem, by the way, and the ‘murder of the innocents’ is a truly wonderful touch.

Channah

To see this in a Christian’s perspective, the Old Testament points to Jesus Christ. Of course Jesus is amazing, as He is our Lord. I must go to work now, I will get back to you later on…

Blessings,
Shoshana

 

[cabaret]

Greg_McPherran:

Hi Cabaret,

Not sure what you are referring to. Are you referring to our belief in the incarnation, that is, that God became a human being?

Greg

Yes, exactly.

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Greg, you posted:

(By the way, I really appreciate the way you clearly and directly address each point/question. It is a pleasure to post to you and Cabaret.)

Egad…

Thank you! (Our Sages teach that, “Good manners preceeded the Torah,” i.e. we shouldn’t need God to tell us to be courteous.)

It is likewise a pleasure to post with/to you!

You posted:

I think I am seeing the distinction now. Some of our reminders are more direct whereas yours are indirect.

Bingo! We’ll give you a (kosher, of course) chocolate cee-gar! Our bugbear is with images of living beings, be they celestial/spiritual or earthly.

Since God (or His angel) appeared in the flames of the bush, isn’t an image of the Burning Bush an image of a form that God appeared in?

As long as the drawing is merely bush-and-flames with no attempt to depict God Himself, I don’t know that there should be a problem.

Be well!

ssv

 

[Greg_McPherran]

Hello SSV and Cabaret,

Genesis 1:26 Then God said: "Let us make man in our image,…

**Genesis 1:26 **God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him;

Greg

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Greg, about the plural (“in our image…”):

First, there is the Majesticatus Pluralis (i.e. the “Royal We”).

Our Sages also teach that by saying “Let us…” God was speaking to/consulting the angelic host (see I Kings 22:20-23, Isaiah 6:8, note the use of “us”, Job 1:6-12). God certainly does not need the angels’ help or advice but He speaks to them out of courtesy and modesty. (Our Sages deduce from this that a great person should always act humbly and consult those lower than him/her.) One of our Sages says that God thus “consulted” the angels at this stage because they were jealous of man, that man and not they would be the pinnacle of creation.

These same Sages offer another explanation. They note that in 1:11, God said, “Let the earth put forth grass…” and in 1:24, He said “Let the earth bring forth the living creature…” Thus, in 1:26, our Sages suggest that God was speaking to the earth when He said, “Let us make man…” In effect, He said to the earth: Let us be partners in making man. I will provide the soul and you will provide the body. When the man dies, we will each reclaim our respective parts. (See Ecclesiastes 12:7, “And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns unto God who gave it.”) (Note: Our Sages are offering homilies, parables here, the value of which is in the idea that they teach.)

The use of the singular “in his image” points to the overall Unity of God.

Howzat?

Be well!

ssv

 

[Ghosty]

We believe that we are forbidden to image, represent or depict God, the angelic host, etc. in any form whatsoever for any purpose whatsoever.

Then why the angels on the Ark of the Covenant, or the Cherubim who stood vigil over the Ark in the Temple?

 

[whowantsumadebo]

I’m suprised no one has brought up Daniel’s vision of the Ancient of Days. That is pretty descriptive. That’s all I have to say.

 

[Greg_McPherran]

Hello SSV and Cabaret,

stillsmallvoice:

Greg, about the plural (“in our image…”):

First, there is the Majesticatus Pluralis (i.e. the “Royal We”).

God was speaking to/consulting the angelic host…He speaks to them out of courtesy and modesty.

One of our Sages says that God thus “consulted” the angels at this stage because they were jealous of man, that man and not they would be the pinnacle of creation.

In effect, He said to the earth: Let us be partners in making man.

Actually, I was not raising the question related to our image, but I will comment. That is an interpretation. The Messiah (Christians believe) taught that God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and Christians believe that this is what our ***image ***refers to. This makes more sense especially since in the second statement God refers to His image. The unity of expression of the association of our image and His image would not make sense for angels since angels are not God Himself whereas the Trinity is.

St. Paul also said that the Hebrew Scriptures are an outline of things to come. We believe that Jesus has revealed more fully the meaning of the Jewish Scriptures.

My original point was to show that Judaism forbids images of God yet we are told:

Genesis 1:26 Then God said: "Let us make man in our image,…

**Genesis 1:27 **God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him;

Greg