Jews--Christians--Muslims...same God?

[Little_Star_1]

I follow your logic here, but disagree with your conclusions. Religion is the result or product from which God revealed Himself to humanity.

Every culture and age in some way recorded a religion or belief system in a supreme being =God or multiple gods.

The CCC addresses the many different revelations recorded by man that developed into different religions believing in a diety or dieties.

CCC 843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among the shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as " a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."

CCC 844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them’
Very often, deceived by the Evil one, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair. (Romans 1:21,25)

CCC 845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church…The Church is “the world reconciled”. She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.”

The image of Noah’s Ark prefigured the Church which alone saves from the flood, in which eight persons were saved by water, which prefigured baptism that saves you now.
( 1 Pet 3:20-21God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. This prefigured baptism, which saves you now.)

So religion is the result in which man believes God has revealed himself to man, or man has taken creation and dea-fied it, because creation has revealed itself to man, who makes it a false god in vain.

Jesus Christ taken on flesh of being born, sacrificial crucifixion, resurrection and ascencion into heaven revealed in the fullness of time solves the equation of all religions for which look to God. The Ark, the Church welcomes every people, nation, tongue and tribe into the Ark of the New Covenant through the baptism waters.

Yes, I agree, religion is how man believes God has revealed Himself…

 

[daler]

And the more we can study the Sun, the more we can agree that it is not a god and that it is the same for everybody. The ancient Egyptians worshipped the Sun as a god at about the same time as Abraham worshipped Yahweh. The Egyptians had more than one god and so did the ancient Jews. Was Abraham a Jew?

Friend, I did not mean to imply that the sun is god. I was simply using the analogy that while we can point to that one object which shines upon all of us, and say: "This is what I mean when I use this word: “sun” (or “sol”) (or “shams”), etc, we cannot point to our God, Who gave us all life, sustains life, and to which all life returns, when we call upon Him by these words: “God” (or “Gott”, or “Allah”, or “Great Spirit”) etc. But that it is not too difficult that we are talking about our common Creator. It is apparent to at least some of us that this is so.
There is a shared belief in all monotheistic religions that there is only One God, no matter which language we speak, and I agree with you that no one has “seen” God, for He is above all physical attributes, and cannot be seen with physical eyes.

Are you intimating that the same religion was practiced by all 100 plus tribes of Native Americans when there was no scripture for them and no common language? They were animists, not monotheists.

No, that was a generalization. On the Sioux reservation where I came from the Lakota people believed in One God, Wakan Tanka, and generally speaking most of the peoples of what we now call North America also believed ultimately in One God, by whatever name they gave praise to Him in whatever language they spoke.
While it is true that there are varying practices, animism included, this is not universal.

The spiritual “impulse” in man is inherited, from what I observe, and is apparent even when misdirected towards idolizing rock stars, movie stars, fancy cars, or whatever. Our spirit “yearns” for God, but it seems that we must be spiritually “educated” to properly direct our souls to worship the One God, by whatever name we call Him (non-gender).
This is the purpose for which God sends the Prophets, Who are Divine Educators, in this sense, to give to us the knowledge of God, that we might overcome our superstitions and recognize that they Who are the bearers of the Name of the One true God may teach of of His ways.
There is a quote from the Baha’i Writings which says:
“All of the Prophets proclaim the same Faith.” That is assuming that by the term Prophets, we are speaking of Those Who are truly the Prophets of the One true God, and not false prophets who are not the true Prophets of whom we are speaking, and that there is in the ultimate sense, only One God, One religion, and One mankind, although in our various languages and cultures we may have different names of God, the religion we call our own, whose purpose is to connect our hearts to God, and that all of humanity is the creation of that same God. Hence,
“The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens.” from the Writings of Baha’u’llah

 

[Little_Star_1]

And the more we can study the Sun, the more we can agree that it is not a god and that it is the same for everybody. The ancient Egyptians worshipped the Sun as a god at about the same time as Abraham worshipped Yahweh. The Egyptians had more than one god and so did the ancient Jews. Was Abraham a Jew?

Friend, I did not mean to imply that the sun is god. I was simply using the analogy that while we can point to that one object which shines upon all of us, and say: "This is what I mean when I use this word: “sun” (or “sol”) (or “shams”), etc, we cannot point to our God, Who gave us all life, sustains life, and to which all life returns, when we call upon Him by these words: “God” (or “Gott”, or “Allah”, or “Great Spirit”) etc. But that it is not too difficult that we are talking about our common Creator. It is apparent to at least some of us that this is so.
There is a shared belief in all monotheistic religions that there is only One God, no matter which language we speak, and I agree with you that no one has “seen” God, for He is above all physical attributes, and cannot be seen with physical eyes.

I get your meaning completely. On my mother’s side, I descend, at least in part, from the Nez Perce tribe. Her grandmother was Nez Perce; though, we apparently had some relatives that were born on the Rosebud Reservation. This could be because the Sioux allowed the Nez Perce to join them when they ran from the Calvary into Canada.

I know that this is way off topic. I see God in nature. For me at times, nature can emit a spiritual call of some sort. Though I never lived with my Native relatives, I think this is in me from my ancestors. In one of what is called the Gnostic gospels (don’t remember which one), Jesus instructs the disciples, that when they feel weak, they are to go out into nature and study a tree and how its roots pull what it needs out of the Earth. The beauty of this Earth is God’s reminder to us of His love. I have felt very blessed to have been given this understanding which I think naturally flowed from my Native roots.

My point in this is that God will touch all of His people in some way, even those that are not born in an environment where the teachings of Christianity are given. I don’t know the details of their beliefs, but I believe that, as far as the nature of God, they understood this quite well.

 

[daler]

I get your meaning completely. On my mother’s side, I descend, at least in part, from the Nez Perce tribe. Her grandmother was Nez Perce; though, we apparently had some relatives that were born on the Rosebud Reservation. This could be because the Sioux allowed the Nez Perce to join them when they ran from the Calvary into Canada.

I know that this is way off topic. I see God in nature. For me at times, nature can emit a spiritual call of some sort. Though I never lived with my Native relatives, I think this is in me from my ancestors. In one of what is called the Gnostic gospels (don’t remember which one), Jesus instructs the disciples, that when they feel weak, they are to go out into nature and study a tree and how its roots pull what it needs out of the Earth. The beauty of this Earth is God’s reminder to us of His love. I have felt very blessed to have been given this understanding which I think naturally flowed from my Native roots.

My point in this is that God will touch all of His people in some way, even those that are not born in an environment where the teachings of Christianity are given. I don’t know the details of their beliefs, but I believe that, as far as the nature of God, they understood this quite well.

Thank you for your wonderful insights. My thoughts are similar, that perhaps there is a spiritual “osmosis” available to us to draw on, that we need to extract ourselves from the fast and furious world of the city, to withdraw for a time from invented distractions, and allow God to speak to us through other than human speech.
If I may borrow from another quote,
“Nature is God’s Will and is its expression in and through the contingent world.”
– Tablets of Baha’u’llah

Native Americans were not without guidance from God, the Great Spirit. There is definitely something authentic which was brought to them through their own “Prophets”. In the history of the Sioux (Lakota/Dakota), the White Buffalo Calf Woman was one of these Prophets, I believe. The spiritual attributes latent within us are brought out through the teachings of these divine educators, just as the natural attributes latent within a plant are brought out when exposed to the heat and light of the sun.
The spiritual “Suns” are the Manifestations of God who stir our souls by the power of the Holy Spirit and raise our awareness of the Creator of the universe, Wakan Tanka (God, in English, Allah, in Arabic, etc)

Mitakoye Oyasin (We are all related)

 

[happyme]

The Quran is very clear and it states: Sura 109.2

I do not worship what you worship,

and you do not worship what I worship.

I will never worship what you worship,

and you will never worship what I worship.

You to your religion, me to my religion.

The way I read this, regardless of what CCC-841 states, that Muslims, Christians & Jews do not worship the same God.

I am sorry but I have to speak out about this inaccuracy above.

1. THE DISBELIEVERS
   Some of the Meccan idolaters suggested to the Prophet as a compromise that he
   should worship their gods for a year and they should worship his for a year. This
   was the reply.

In the name of God, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy
1 Say [Prophet], ‘Disbelievers:
2 I do not worship what you worship,
3 you do not worship what I worship,
4 I will never worship what you worship,
5 you will never worship what I worship:a
6 you have your religion and I have mine.

So we see Muhammad was refusing to worship idols for a year, and keep faith in the One true God and creator.
To completely twist verses from a sacred text, is something not only Muhammad spoke against but Christ as well, when claiming that the Jewish priests also did the same.
So my friend you tread on very dangerous ground here, if you claim to be a follower of Jesus The Son of God.

 

[jakasaki]

I posted the tafsir for you review. Perhaps you didn’t open the link to read it.

It is very lengthy so I only grabbed one section explaining the Sura:

[1-6] Say: "O disbelievers!

1 I do not worship those whom you worship.

2 Nor are you worshipers of Him Whom I worship.

3 Nor am I a worshiper of those whom you have worshiped. Nor are you worshipers of Him Whom I worship.

4 For you is your religion and for me is mine."5

1A few points in this verse are particularly noteworthy:

(1)Although the Holy Prophet (upon whom be peace) has been commanded to tell this to the disbelievers plainly, the theme that follows makes it explicit that every believer should tell the disbelievers plainly what has been said in the following verses; so much so that the person who has just believed and repented of kufr is also bound to express similarly his disgust with and disapproval of the creed and rites of worship and gods of kufr. Thus, though the first addressee of the word qul (say) is the Holy Prophet (upon whom be peace) himself, the command is not restricted to him alone but it reaches every believer through him.

(2)The word "kafir’ is no abuse, which might have been used for the addressees of this verse, but it implies the one who refuses to believe, or is an unbeliever. As against it the word “mu min” is used for the believer. Therefore, the Holy Prophet’s saying, by Allah’s command, “O disbelievers, … ', in fact, means: "O you, who have refused to believe in my apostleship and in the teachings brought by me.” Likewise. when a believer uses this word, it will imply those who do not believe in the Holy Prophet Muhammad (upon whom be Allah’s peace and blessings),

(3) The word used is “O kafirs” and not “O mushriks”; therefore, the addressees are not only the mushriks but all those people who do not acknowledge Muhammad (upon whom be Allah’s peace and blessings) as Allah’s Messenger and the teachings and guidance brought by him as the teaching and guidance given by Allah Himself, whether they be Jews, Christians, Zoroastrians or the disbelievers, polytheists and pagans of the entire world. There is no reason why this address be restricted to the pagans of Quraish or of Arabia only.

This chunk is taken from the link I provided above.

My source is not mine -

It’s an Islamic site - it has the entire Quran with several translations as well as Arabic.

Open the link of searchtruth.com and you’ll see it’s 100% Islamic.

I posted from a 100% Islamic site.

searchtruth.com is it’s name -

If you have a problem with the tafsir context of the Sura, take it up with them.

I am sorry but I have to speak out about this inaccuracy above.

1. THE DISBELIEVERS
   Some of the Meccan idolaters suggested to the Prophet as a compromise that he
   should worship their gods for a year and they should worship his for a year. This
   was the reply.

In the name of God, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy
1 Say [Prophet], ‘Disbelievers:
2 I do not worship what you worship,
3 you do not worship what I worship,
4 I will never worship what you worship,
5 you will never worship what I worship:a
6 you have your religion and I have mine.

So we see Muhammad was refusing to worship idols for a year, and keep faith in the One true God and creator.
To completely twist verses from a sacred text, is something not only Muhammad spoke against but Christ as well, when claiming that the Jewish priests also did the same.
So my friend you tread on very dangerous ground here, if you claim to be a follower of Jesus The Son of God.

 

[doormouse73]

@ jakasaki

im sure some people dont know what the left or right hand is doing…

 

[jakasaki]

@ jakasaki

im sure some people dont know what the left or right hand is doing…

I don’t get it.

Members saying that it is MY understanding of what the Sura states:

It is not - the tasfir is taken from an Islamic website and it clearly states:

The word used is “O kafirs” and not “O mushriks”; therefore, the addressees are not only the mushriks but all those people who do not acknowledge Muhammad (upon whom be Allah’s peace and blessings) as Allah’s Messenger and the teachings and guidance brought by him as the teaching and guidance given by Allah Himself, whether they be Jews, Christians, Zoroastrians or the disbelievers, polytheists and pagans of the entire world. There is no reason why this address be restricted to the pagans of Quraish or of Arabia only.

 

[happyme]

jakasaki:
Dear friend

I have read your arguments, but they are so very weak.
You say you have gone to a Muslim site and the people there have given a response that you quote, so your argument is, this is proof.
Ok using your foundation of proof I will go to the internet and find a Christian site that says the trinity is false, so that is proof all Christians believe the trinity is false because look a Christian site says so.
Do you not see how weak is your argument?

Also what you quote, that these muslim’s may believe is not the sacred script of the Quran, and I think you would argue that only the sacred script of the Bible is truth, would you not?

Now let us just forget all that for a while and look at your statement that because of the sura’s in 109. THE DISBELIEVERS, you can say definitely the God of Muhammad is not your God. or the same as Christians believe in.

Now many Catholics in this thread have declared and even stated the Pope says the same that Muslims do indeed follow the same God as Christians. I applaud these Christians for their honesty and loving hearts.
Now look at these sura’s Muhammad is declaring that His only God, is the God of Abraham and of Moses, the one God our creator as attested by the Quran, but you wish to say that His God is not your God, then you are saying that you believe in the other side, that you align yourself with idol worshipers. I imagine what you are saying that you prefer to worship the idol you have created in your mind? And prefer to spread hatred and division instead of the teachings of Christ. Truly sad.

 

[jakasaki]

happyme;10862397
Dear friend

I have read your arguments, but they are so very weak.
You say you have gone to a Muslim site and the people there have given a response that you quote, so your argument is, this is proof.

~ snip

Have you even taken a second to open this site:…??

searchtruth.com/

**It is NOT a forum. **

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[MollyMac]

Am I understanding these correctly?

Christian- Father, Son, Holy Ghost (Trinity)

Muslim- Allah (Not a form of the Christian Trinity, Jesus is not God the Son)

Jewish- Yahweh (Not a form of the Christian Trinity, Jesus is not God the Son)

 

[jakasaki]

Am I understanding these correctly?

Christian- Father, Son, Holy Ghost (Trinity)

Muslim- Allah (Not a form of the Christian Trinity, Jesus is not God the Son)

Jewish- Yahweh (Not a form of the Christian Trinity, Jesus is not God the Son)

Yes

 

[rinnie]

Dear friend

I have read your arguments, but they are so very weak.
You say you have gone to a Muslim site and the people there have given a response that you quote, so your argument is, this is proof.
Ok using your foundation of proof I will go to the internet and find a Christian site that says the trinity is false, so that is proof all Christians believe the trinity is false because look a Christian site says so.
Do you not see how weak is your argument?

Also what you quote, that these muslim’s may believe is not the sacred script of the Quran, and I think you would argue that only the sacred script of the Bible is truth, would you not?

Now let us just forget all that for a while and look at your statement that because of the sura’s in 109. THE DISBELIEVERS, you can say definitely the God of Muhammad is not your God. or the same as Christians believe in.

Now many Catholics in this thread have declared and even stated the Pope says the same that Muslims do indeed follow the same God as Christians. I applaud these Christians for their honesty and loving hearts.
Now look at these sura’s Muhammad is declaring that His only God, is the God of Abraham and of Moses, the one God our creator as attested by the Quran, but you wish to say that His God is not your God, then you are saying that you believe in the other side, that you align yourself with idol worshipers. I imagine what you are saying that you prefer to worship the idol you have created in your mind? And prefer to spread hatred and division instead of the teachings of Christ. Truly sad.

We are taught that Genesis makes Abraham the Father of many nations.

Muslims and Arabs trace their lineage through Ishamel. Is this an accurate statement?

Is it true the Quran states Abraham eschewed all religious labels but insisted on One important thing, His faith in the one trueGod.

We are taught Islam Judaism and Christianity are know as Arahamic Religions because they all trace their covenant made with Abraham.

THe Lord said to Abram Go forth from the land of your kinsfolk and from your fathers house to a land that I will show you.

I will make of you a great nation and I will bless you.
I will make your name great so that you will be a blessing.
I will BLESS those who BLESS you and curse those who curse you.

All the communities of the earth shall find BLESSING in you.

I truly believe that we both praise and honor the One True God. Although I cannot agree many of your teachings that came from Muhammad or that he is a prophet from God, I do believe that God has linked everyone together in someway that praises and honors his name.

And I believe it is in his living Church today that we shall all someday pray together to our one Kind. The one God Father Almighty.

I may be foolish but I believe Jews, Muslims and Christians will all come together someday and honor the One God all together. I pray for that day.

 

[rinnie]

Yes

But you would have to accuse the Jews the same as the Muslims when they pray to the God as Abraham as being a false god.

You cannot have it both ways.

Just because you cannot go to the Father w/o the Son, does make the people who do not understand the Father and Son H.S. being the same One true God a false God.

The O.T. revealed the God of Abraham as The One true God creator of heaven and earth.

It was Jesus who revealed God as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

I was always taught God does not hold you to things that have not been revealed to you.

To deny Christ in the Trinity is indeed a sin, IF you had the Grace given to you from God to see this. Not all have been given this grace.

To say God would deny those grace to see the truth, and then punish them for it, would not be accurate, Our God is merciful, and a forgiving God.

And holds all responsbile to live with the grace that was given to them.

 

[jakasaki]

Wait a moment -

I answered yes to these statements Rinnie.

Am I understanding these correctly?

Christian- Father, Son, Holy Ghost (Trinity)

Muslim- Allah (Not a form of the Christian Trinity, Jesus is not God the Son)

Jewish- Yahweh (Not a form of the Christian Trinity, Jesus is not God the Son)

Isn’t my answer correct…?

I did not elaborate on anything… simply stated “Yes”

 

[rinnie]

Wait a moment -

I answered yes to these statements Rinnie.

Isn’t my answer correct…?

I did not elaborate on anything… simply stated “Yes”

Yes dear you are quite correct. But I am trying to show you how people can see the one true God different ways is all.

From what I can see, you do not agree that Muslims believe in the same God as Us, Correct?

 

[jakasaki]

Yes dear you are quite correct. But I am trying to show you how people can see the one true God different ways is all.

From what I can see, you do not agree that Muslims believe in the same God as Us, Correct?

Rinnie -

I know there is ONE God

I know muslims pray to God.

I know the Catholic teaching is…" and together with us they adore the one, merciful God…"

The Quranic sura 109, when reading the islamic explainination (tafsir) states that this sura applies to :

**Jews, Christians, Zoroastrians or the disbelievers, polytheists and pagans of the entire world.

There is no reason why this address be restricted to the pagans of Quraish or of Arabia only. **

And that the sura was NOT restricted to the pagans.

1 Say [Prophet], ‘Disbelievers: ~ here Mohammad is commanded to say…

2 I do not worship what you worship, - if the muslim is worshiping God, what are we worshiping…?

3 you do not worship what I worship, - If a Christian is worshiping God, what are the Muslims worshiping…?

4 I will never worship what you worship, - a muslim will never worship what a Christian is worshiping

5 you will never worship what I worship:- I as a Christian will never worhsip God, cause that is what a muslim worships…?

6 you have your religion and I have mine. - True that

And as stated from the Islamic Tafsir - this goes for Jews & Christians (et al) - NOT just pagans.

Millions upon millions of muslims use “searchtruth.com” to learn the Quran in Arabic and to also read it in other languages as well as all of the hadiths.

It’s got live feed to Mecca and Medina… you can’t get more Islamic than that.

It’s a Sunny Islam site.

 

[nmgauss]

Why is it that proselyting is a powerful activity among Christians and Muslims but not among Jews? Why is it that proselyting is not a major activity among Eastern Religions?

Does it really matter that you may believe differently than I do?

 

[rinnie]

Why is it that proselyting is a powerful activity among Christians and Muslims but not among Jews? Why is it that proselyting is not a major activity among Eastern Religions?

Does it really matter that you may believe differently than I do?

IMO yes it does.

Because we all want truth. And Jesus taught us truth. He told us he is the Light the Truth and the Way.

We are all called to be his disciples. How can we all be his disciples and spread his truth is we all want to have our own truth?

We are called to spread the good news his truth.

But ALSO and this is a BIG ALSO, We are taught if people reject it to shake the dust from our shoes and move on.

Another wards don’t shove it down someones throat either. They have free will to accept or reject.

But anyway it mattered to Jesus, He didn’t say hey believe what you want, its all cool.

He said I am the way all who follow me will have eternal life.

My truth is this, I want everyone to have eternal life and rest in Christ. Its nothing to gain for myself.

 

[rinnie]

Dear friend

I have read your arguments, but they are so very weak.
You say you have gone to a Muslim site and the people there have given a response that you quote, so your argument is, this is proof.
Ok using your foundation of proof I will go to the internet and find a Christian site that says the trinity is false, so that is proof all Christians believe the trinity is false because look a Christian site says so.
Do you not see how weak is your argument?

Also what you quote, that these muslim’s may believe is not the sacred script of the Quran, and I think you would argue that only the sacred script of the Bible is truth, would you not?

Now let us just forget all that for a while and look at your statement that because of the sura’s in 109. THE DISBELIEVERS, you can say definitely the God of Muhammad is not your God. or the same as Christians believe in.

Now many Catholics in this thread have declared and even stated the Pope says the same that Muslims do indeed follow the same God as Christians. I applaud these Christians for their honesty and loving hearts.
Now look at these sura’s Muhammad is declaring that His only God, is the God of Abraham and of Moses, the one God our creator as attested by the Quran, but you wish to say that His God is not your God, then you are saying that you believe in the other side, that you align yourself with idol worshipers. I imagine what you are saying that you prefer to worship the idol you have created in your mind? And prefer to spread hatred and division instead of the teachings of Christ. Truly sad.

Jakasaki,
I have no idea. But what if this person is telling us the truth. We can all agree there are many sites out there giving out half truths about our faith.

Not that I agree with the teachings of Muhammad, never did, never will. But I agree with one imporant thing. I prefer to spread love and prayer in Christ and rather this person is saying the truth or not, I think we need to get on what this thread is about.

Its not about discussing the teachings of Muhammad, ITs do we pray to God. Lets stick with that.

Now to pick apart the teachings, I choose to not do that today, Lets just spread truth. Thats all.

And lets agree with this thread on one thing, lets try togetherness and the teachings and bring people to Christ not division.