Jews' Eternal Fate?

[ryanoneil]

However Jesus is given that power by God, he doesn’t just have it as God.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

2 Samuel 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

In God himself there is an eternal dialogue between Father and Son, who are both truly one and the same God in the Holy Spirit.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. (John 1:1-2)

And Messiah does rule and speak as God like Moses did:

Exodus 4:16 And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou (MOSES) shalt be to him instead of God.

Jesus the Messiah does NOT rule and speak as God like Moses did. Jesus has eternally conversed with the Lord “face to face” While Moses was only allowed to see the Lord’s back.

Jesus lives before the face of God as a Son while Moses spoke to God as one man to another. What was true of Moses only in a partial way was fully realized in Jesus!

And again, Son of God is the Messiah expected by Jews:

But Messiah was never expected to be God, just the human Son of David.

What else did Israel expect?

There first request for a king “to lead us in warfare and fight our battles” 1 Sam 8:19-20 was sinful and blasphemous. They were looking for a man to be their king and rejecting God as their king"
1 Sam 8:7

Think of the implications of Jesus being just the human Son of David.

Now think of the implication of God being Israel’s King once again, forever.

*I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. No one can take them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can take them out of the Father’s hand. The Father and I are one." *(John 10:28:30)

God gave us Himself. That is how much He loves us.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[FaithofAbraham]

I did not want to hijack the thread or hit you upside the head with the big creed, but I had no choice.

Seriously, does it fit better now to you?

No, it goes south for me once you have the union of the spirit of I AM and the spirit of a man, then he becomes something other than the I AM which spoke to Moses, in this case Christ.

“Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood.”

This is not the same entity that we see in Exodus since that I AM has no union with manhood, therefore Christian interpretation of John 8:58 makes Jesus a fibber.

And it obscures my wonderful interpretation showing Jesus to be the Melchizedek who atones for our sins which is the most important thing he does for us.

 

[ralphinal]

No, it goes south for me once you have the union of the spirit of I AM and the spirit of a man, then he becomes something other than the I AM which spoke to Moses, in this case Christ.

No, the Father was the one who spoke to Moses, The Son was there as he is God as well.

“Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood.”

This is not the same entity that we see in Exodus since that I AM has no union with manhood, therefore Christian interpretation of John 8:58 makes Jesus a fibber.

PLease see above point. It does not make Jesus a fibber, as he is saying that he is one in substance with the Father

And it obscures my wonderful interpretation showing Jesus to be the Melchizedek who atones for our sins which is the most important thing he does for us.

I agree that our salvation was of primary importance…but the Melchizedek connection is yours alone. If the Catholic understanding obscures it, then so be it.

 

[ralphinal]

May we return to the other conversation?

It seems like there are four schools of thought on this.

1. Jews do not accept Jesus, and are therefore damned.
2. Jews are still God’s chosen people and are judged within that context
3. Jews are judged by how they act upon the grace God grants them
4. No one knows

 

[FaithofAbraham]

May we return to the other conversation?

It seems like there are four schools of thought on this.

1. Jews do not accept Jesus, and are therefore damned.
2. Jews are still God’s chosen people and are judged within that context
3. Jews are judged by how they act upon the grace God grants them
4. No one knows

I think if Jews try to love God and observe Torah but just have honest doubt about Jesus, then they will be better off than Jews who really fight against Jesus and are atheists.

So not all Jews are the same, but unfortunately I come in contact most with the latter. Jews on this site seem to be more the former though, at least from what I can tell.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

No, the Father was the one who spoke to Moses, The Son was there as he is God as well.

PLease see above point. It does not make Jesus a fibber, as he is saying that he is one in substance with the Father

I agree that our salvation was of primary importance…but the Melchizedek connection is yours alone. If the Catholic understanding obscures it, then so be it.

If the unified spirits of God and man are speaking in John 8:58 how can they be the same as the God-alone spirits of Exodus?

The problem with the creed is that it says they can’t be separated to make the man speak at some times as a man, God speak at some times as a God. So when Jesus speaks according to the creed he speaks as God and man, but that unified entity wasn’t there in Exodus.

 

[ralphinal]

If the unified spirits of God and man are speaking in John 8:58 how can they be the same as the God-alone spirits of Exodus?

The problem with the creed is that it says they can’t be separated to make the man speak at some times as a man, God speak at some times as a God. So when Jesus speaks according to the creed he speaks as God and man, but that unified entity wasn’t there in Exodus.

That creed does not say that the Father cannot speak without the son. Further, it shows that the Son existed before he was made flesh. Jesus was not there in Exodus, but the Son was.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

That creed does not say that the Father cannot speak without the son. Further, it shows that the Son existed before he was made flesh. Jesus was not there in Exodus, but the Son was.

“Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but One Christ.”

For Jesus to say he is I AM as in God means he is saying that he, the unified Word and man in Christ, was there in Exodus. Which doesn’t work, that unified man wasn’t there. So when Jesus says that in John 8:58 he is talking about being Melchizedek, which does work perfectly almost word for word in places.

John 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

Was Jesus honored by God to be another God? No…

Hebrews 5:4-6 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron. So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

 

[ralphinal]

“Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but One Christ.”

For Jesus to say he is I AM as in God means he is saying that he, the unified Word and man in Christ, was there in Exodus. Which doesn’t work, that unified man wasn’t there. So when Jesus says that in John 8:58 he is talking about being Melchizedek, which does work perfectly almost word for word in places.

John 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

Was Jesus honored by God to be another God? No…

Hebrews 5:4-6 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron. So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Now you are getting into a paradox. The Son is eternal, whereas Jesus had a beginning. He was not True God and True Man before the incarnation.

Again, Jesus is not a separate God. To Christians, he is God. I am not sure how else to explain it. I know that this understanding messes up your understanding of Scriptures, but that cannot be helped. It is the faith that we as Catholics possess. It is different than the faith that you possess.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Now you are getting into a paradox. The Son is eternal, whereas Jesus had a beginning. He was not True God and True Man before the incarnation.

Again, Jesus is not a separate God. To Christians, he is God. I am not sure how else to explain it. I know that this understanding messes up your understanding of Scriptures, but that cannot be helped. It is the faith that we as Catholics possess. It is different than the faith that you possess.

What was Jesus honored with in John 8:54? If he is already God what higher honor could he get?

The creed says Jesus is God and man, never one or the other but always both. Based on that, Jesus can never speak as God at one point then as a man on the other, he has to speak as what he is, God and man.

And there is no God and man there in Exodus, only the Father of Israel which Jesus said is his father too.

Given all that it is impossible that Jesus was talking about being the God of Exodus in John 8:58. And all possible that he was talking about being like Melchizedek in Abraham’s day as I’ve shown.

 

[ralphinal]

What was Jesus honored with in John 8:54? If he is already God what higher honor could he get?

The creed says Jesus is God and man, never one or the other but always both. Based on that, Jesus can never speak as God at one point then as a man on the other, he has to speak as what he is, God and man.

And there is no God and man there in Exodus, only the Father of Israel which Jesus said is his father too.

Given all that it is impossible that Jesus was talking about being the God of Exodus in John 8:58. And all possible that he was talking about being like Melchizedek in Abraham’s day as I’ve shown.

We should do this in another thread, as this is not the point of this one. Once you have the incarnation, the Son is True God and True man and cannot be divided. That the Father exhaults the Son is not a problem, as they are two divine persons in one being. If you do not accept the oneness, the rest will never make sense.

 

[ckonrad]

You are saying that whenever the Father is talking Jesus is talking too, like here:

Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

So if Jesus is talking as the Father in Exodus, we should also assume Jesus also said that to himself. That’s what you are saying.

God is outside of time and can exist in 3 different ways at the same time. A good analogy that is often used to explain the trinity to children is: An icecube can exist in 3 different ways in time for example, it can be a solid as ice, it can melt into a liquid, and it can be boiled into steam. God however can exist in 3 different ways outside of time. the trinity according to the limits of human reason is just God existing in 3 different ways. It isnt very surprising to me that God can speak to himself made flesh within time, also it wasn’t just jesus hearing those words was it, it was also the others around him so Gods speaking served a practical purpose.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

God is outside of time and can exist in 3 different ways at the same time. A good analogy that is often used to explain the trinity to children is: An icecube can exist in 3 different ways in time for example, it can be a solid as ice, it can melt into a liquid, and it can be boiled into steam. God however can exist in 3 different ways outside of time. the trinity according to the limits of human reason is just God existing in 3 different ways. It isnt very surprising to me that God can speak to himself made flesh within time, also it wasn’t just jesus hearing those words was it, it was also the others around him so Gods speaking served a practical purpose.

Put some ice in boiling water and see what happens.

 

[ckonrad]

I don’t think there is any culpability in the examples we are using. To be clear, I believe that your epiphany was just as valid as mine. I believe Judaism and Christianity and Islam are structures that one uses to access God. I don’t necessarily believe one structure is universally more true than the other. But for me, Judaism is the best way to access the Divine.

You regard Christianity as a valid “structure” for accessing God. Is Christianity a God made “structure” or a man made “structure”?

If its man made, then you believe that man can make valid “structures” to access God. If you believe that it is God made then you are a Christian.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

We should do this in another thread, as this is not the point of this one. Once you have the incarnation, the Son is True God and True man and cannot be divided. That the Father exhaults the Son is not a problem, as they are two divine persons in one being. If you do not accept the oneness, the rest will never make sense.

If the Son is already God how much higher can he go?

If they can’t be divided then how can Jesus say he was the I AM that was in Exodus, since that being didn’t exist until the incarnation? Besides not being the Father of Israel that is also the Father of Jesus that spoke to Moses.

 

[ckonrad]

Put some ice in boiling water and see what happens.

Yes i know i would warn not to do that. However thats a bit rude you sound like you almost want me to experience the ice exploding all over the place from the temperature change. Aside from that you are taking the analogy a bit too seriously. I always find it interesting how inconsiderate so many muslims are, the last muslim i spoke to told me that some day he would taste my blood so go figure.

 

[catharina]

May we return to the other conversation?

It seems like there are four schools of thought on this.

1. Jews do not accept Jesus, and are therefore damned.
2. Jews are still God’s chosen people and are judged within that context
3. Jews are judged by how they act upon the grace God grants them
4. No one knows

Yes, Raphinal, I’ll get back to it and repeat myself!

"Karen (OP), I haven’t time to read all of this thread right now, but all Chritians should be aware of Paul’s teaching to the early Church in Rome.

St. Paul to the Romans, 11:25-29

25
4 I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not become wise (in) your own estimation: a hardening has come upon Israel in part, until the full number of the Gentiles comes in,
26
and thus all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The deliverer will come out of Zion, he will turn away godlessness from Jacob;
27
and this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
28
In respect to the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but in respect to election, they are beloved because of the patriarchs.
29
For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.

As verse 26 says: “all of Israel will be saved … .”
and in verse 29: “For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.”

(Reference to other statement by OP:  
On another note however, I can't recall anyone 
ever describing Jehovah's Witnesses as Christians.")

 

[ckonrad]

If the Son is already God how much higher can he go?

If they can’t be divided then how can Jesus say he was the I AM that was in Exodus, since that being didn’t exist until the incarnation? Besides not being the Father of Israel that is also the Father of Jesus that spoke to Moses.

As a muslim you claim to believe in the Gospel yet here you are trying to argue with the words of Christ himself.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Yes i know i would warn not to do that. However thats a bit rude you sound like you almost want me to experience the ice exploding all over the place from the temperature change. Aside from that you are taking the analogy a bit too seriously. I always find it interesting how inconsiderate so many muslims are, the last muslim i spoke to told me that some day he would taste my blood so go figure.

I thought it was pretty funny.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

As a muslim you claim to believe in the Gospel yet here you are trying to argue with the words of Christ himself.

I reject what Christians say Jesus was saying. What I say is better.