Jews, the Talmud, and Jesus

[Sepharad]

Isa, You Christians love to point out that our Temple was destroyed, and you like to make it sound as if this was because of Jesus…but you forget something…

That was the second Temple, and Jesus was not the only one to foretell its destruction…Jewish literature had foretold it before him, he probably just got it from that. As the saying goes, “Whatever Jesus said that was true, was not new…and what he said that was new, was not true”.

We also had a First Temple which was destroyed, yet I don’t recall any Jesus being anywhere around when that happened either.

We will again have a Third Temple, before long…and the fact that the Muslims are on the Temple Mount means nothing…we believe in the coming of a King Messiah who, with God’s help, will be more than adequately able to “move” them!

 

[Robbinson]

Don’t you find it informative that of all the Jewish or pseudo-Jewish sects, which normally differ with each other greatly…they are all united on ONE issue: rejection of Jesus as messiah?

That should tell you something.

I do indeed find it interesting and informative. It makes me think of Isaiah 6:9-13:

***6:9
He said, "Go and tell this people: “‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’
6:10
Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.”
6:11
Then I said, “For how long, O Lord?” And he answered: “Until the cities lie ruined and without inhabitant, until the houses are left deserted and the fields ruined and ravaged,
6:12
until the Lord has sent everyone far away and the land is utterly forsaken.
6:13
And though a tenth remains in the land, it will again be laid waste. But as the terebinth and oak leave stumps when they are cut down, so the holy seed will be the stump in the land.” ***

and Isaiah 49:6

***he says: “It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth.” ***

and of course Isaiah 53 which talks of the Jewish peoples’ rejection of the Messiah.

Don’t you find it remarkable that Jesus, who came at the appointed time (per the book of Daniel) was in fact rejected by his people (remains so, as you point out for the most part this day) but indeed became a light to the gentile nations (as fortold in scripture - bringing billions of Gentiles to know and worship the God of the Hebrews). If the Messiah is to be rejected by his own people and become a light to the gentile nations, and then become known to the Jewish people (oh yes, and come at the appointed time which preceded the destruction of the second temple) and be of the seed of David (no longer determinable today as records are lost), etc. - what other candidate do you have in mind?

Look - I’m really not trying to convert you - your mind is made up and nothing I could do or say would change it - only the Holy Spirit can convince anyone of truth and only the Word of God. There are, however, for those willing to look hard at scripture and step back and drop preconceptions and traditional interpretations and read the “whol story” of scripture, some remarkable scriptural proof texts to support Jesus as the Messiah.

We will all find out some day - till then, we can be friends and co-children of God in seek of the truth.

Blessings, and in love (sincerely),

Brian

 

[Angelos]

Isa, You Christians love to point out that our Temple was destroyed, and you like to make it sound as if this was because of Jesus…but you forget something…

That was the second Temple, and Jesus was not the only one to foretell its destruction…Jewish literature had foretold it before him, he probably just got it from that. As the saying goes, “Whatever Jesus said that was true, was not new…and what he said that was new, was not true”.

I would like to know if the Jewish literature made any association between the destruction of the Temple and the disbelief of the Jews in a certain Messiah. More, what Jesus was primarily concerned with was the destruction of His own body, which represented the Temple.

We also had a First Temple which was destroyed, yet I don’t recall any Jesus being anywhere around when that happened either.

I do not recall any Biblical prophecy that commands the Messiah to be around during or before each time the Temple is destroyed.

We will again have a Third Temple, before long…and the fact that the Muslims are on the Temple Mount means nothing…we believe in the coming of a King Messiah who, with God’s help, will be more than adequately able to “move” them!

That will not be the true Messiah according to your interpretation of the prophecy in Isaiah then. It is impossible for “your” Messiah to appear in the period of universal peace and move Muslims away from a site they consider sacred. On the contrary, it will be a term of constant wars and conflicts.

 

[mark_a]

In the few months since I’ve been here, I’ve noticed that many Catholics seem to believe that the Jewish religion as it has existed since the time of Jesus is not the same as the one that existed prior.

I have also noticed that some Catholics believe that it is the teachings of the Talmud (the Jewish formerly-oral law, now set into writing) which prevent Jews from believing in Jesus.

(I’ve gathered this from not only this forum, but a number of other Catholic websites, blogs, etc which I’ve been reading over.)

I’d like to offer some explanations, and some food for thought.

1. Judaism has always been an evolving religion. Judaism is the same religion as it has always been, but it does change and evolve over time.

The Judaism that existed in the time of Jesus, for example, was quite different in some ways from the Judaism that existed in the time of Moses. Circumstances and situations often brought about changes and evolutions, as did different schools of thought within Judaism.

1. The Talmud alone is not the reason why Jews do not accept Jesus. The Medieval chuch did not understand this; they ordered public burnings of the Talmud (notably, in France in the 1200s), because they felt the Talmud contained insults against Jesus (it did not), and that it was what was preventing Jews from entering the church.

There are a number of groups of Jews which have existed for many centuries, and that never had any exposure to the Talmud. The Karaite Jews are one such group; the Ethiopian Jews and Chinese Jews of Kaifeng are another.

While some might claim that the Karaite Jews of Lithuania and Egypt did, somewhere along the line, have exposure to the Talmud (yet they rejected it), the Jews in Ethiopia were cut off from the rest of world Jewry for many centuries…in fact when they were first discovered by explorers who were Jewish, they refused to let them enter their Ethiopian synagogues because they felt sure they were not Jews because they were white!

They had absolutely no exposure to the Talmud at all, and their Judaism consisted solely of following the Torah and the rest of the “Old Testament”…yet they too strongly always rejected a belief in Jesus. They were persecuted terribly by Christians over the centuries, for refusing to convert, in fact.

The Jews of Kaifeng, China, were first discovered by Catholic missionaries in the Middle Ages…they too had never heard of the Talmud, yet strongly resisted any attempts to convert them to Christianity.

So there is something which prevents Jews, no matter where they are, from accepting a belief in Jesus…and evidently, it does not come from the teachings of the Talmud.

Thanks for this wonderful info.

 

[inJESUS]

It is true that the true Messiah will first slay the wicked…but after that there will be universal peace…

But he shall judge the poor with justice, and shall reprove with equity the meek of the earth: and he shall strike the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked.

Is that understood in terms of military war??

 

[Sepharad]

and of course Isaiah 53 which talks of the Jewish peoples’ rejection of the Messiah.

Don’t you find it remarkable that Jesus, who came at the appointed time (per the book of Daniel) was in fact rejected by his people (remains so, as you point out for the most part this day) but indeed became a light to the gentile nations (as fortold in scripture - bringing billions of Gentiles to know and worship the God of the Hebrews). If the Messiah is to be rejected by his own people and become a light to the gentile nations, and then become known to the Jewish people (oh yes, and come at the appointed time which preceded the destruction of the second temple) and be of the seed of David (no longer determinable today as records are lost), etc. - what other candidate do you have in mind?

Look - I’m really not trying to convert you - your mind is made up and nothing I could do or say would change it - only the Holy Spirit can convince anyone of truth and only the Word of God. There are, however, for those willing to look hard at scripture and step back and drop preconceptions and traditional interpretations and read the “whol story” of scripture, some remarkable scriptural proof texts to support Jesus as the Messiah.

We will all find out some day - till then, we can be friends and co-children of God in seek of the truth.

Blessings, and in love (sincerely),

Brian

Everything you said is based on the Christian interpretation, you see it one way, we see it another way.

 

[inJESUS]

That will not be the true Messiah according to your interpretation of the prophecy in Isaiah then. It is impossible for “your” Messiah to appear in the period of universal peace and move Muslims away from a site they consider sacred. On the contrary, it will be a term of constant wars and conflicts.

couldn’t agree more. There will never be peace with such a scenario.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

The Tanakh was given to the Jewish people…and to this day, the overwhelming majority of the Jewish people…whether they are Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, or even the “heretical” Jewish sects like the Karaites and Samaritans, ALL reject the possibilility of Jesus being the messiah.

As the theme of the Faithful remnant, as St. Paul refers to with Elijah (Romans 11:1-6, 1 Kings 19:10, 18) is replete throughout the OT or even the Tanakh (I think we agree, they are not exactly one and the same in this issue), I don’t know what a majority would mean.

Rodney Stark, “The Rise of Christianity: A Sociologist Reconsiders History” argues that the facts seem to indicate that the majority of Hebrews converted.

And while we’re at it, since you are pressing the issue, WHO IS A JEW? since they all get to vote, don’t they?

Btw, that the majority of Jews haven’t done aliyah doesn’t seem to sway Zionism one bit.

Don’t you find it informative that of all the Jewish or pseudo-Jewish sects, which normally differ with each other greatly…they are all united on ONE issue: rejection of Jesus as messiah?

So you all can’t agree on one thing except that Jesus is not the Messiah. Now that’s proof

That should tell you something.

yes, they contradict each other. Consult Acts 23:6-9.

Oh, and look what I found for Isa: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksei_%28former_Russian_archpriest%29

I found his story very interesting!

You didn’t know of the Judaizers before? Had I known that, I would have brought them up before (I do think I brought up the B’nei Noach, Gentiles for Judaism). I don’t know how much you know of the Orthodoxy (except for identifying it with Cossak pogroms) but it has a lot kept from the Hebrew Christians (New Year and Fast in the Fall, litrugical calendar beginning with Passover/Pascha/Easter: in Orthodox languages it’s the same word, day begins at Sunset, no eating blood (some I’m told do break this now), vestments (of the priesthood, not the rabbinate: many remarked at that the Senhedrin in “the Passion of the Christ” like like bishops, that’s why), a tradition of priestly families (like the Levites), etc. so the attraction is there. There is a question about the Judaizers, if they were Jewish converts or just Christian heretics. By that we mean in the former would you take them, or if they were just heretics trying to coruppt the Church with their practices (somewhat like the Protestant taking up the Masoretic text, adopting customs like celebrating Passover, Sukkoth, etc. I’ve known Gentiles who do that. Do they get to vote in your Jewish poll?). Anyway, would they get to vote in your poll, because as I understand it, the majority weren’t denying Jesus was the Christ, they just thought that since He was Hebrew they should take up the Old Law too.

Which brings up another issue on “majority.” Now, you know of the DNA tests that have validated the descent of the Kohenim from Aaron. Other DNA studies link the Jews of today with Arabs, particulary in Palestine. No suprise there. But the tests also show a connection with the Armenians. Now the Armenians, it turns out, have a tradition of being descendants of Jews. (The neighboring kingdom of Adiabene converted to rabbinic Judiasm). The noble houses all claimed Jewish descent: the Bagratids, for instance claimed to be descendents of David. A branch went on to become kings of Armenia, another Kings of Georgia. They became part of Russian nobility when at the Cathedral of Zion in the Capital Georgia was annexed to Russia (though the King Solomon Bagratid fled) In the 1800s one of these Princesses used to where black during the Dormition Fast “because she was mourning for a relative” (the Theotokos, Christ’s mother). She also said the Hail Mary “Rejoice Cousin!” Another, less ecentric member was Pyotr Bagration, who fought Napolean and appears in “War and Peace.”

At its height, the Armenian extended down to Palestine, and King Tigranes (1st cent. BC) is said to have had 10,000 Palestinian Hebrews come settle in Armenia.

Anyway, since the Armenians claim to be Hebrews, and the genetics back it up, and they are almost all, all 8-10 million of them, Christian (in fact, the first Christian kingdom) 95% of them Orthodox, do they get to vote in your “Jewish” poll?

 

[Robbinson]

Everything you said is based on the Christian interpretation, you see it one way, we see it another way.

Sepharad:

Again, I don’t know if your realize it or intend it, you make a overbroad statement which therefore undercuts somewhat your credibility. Best to say perhaps many/some of what I said is consistent with Christian, as opposed to Jewish traditional, interpretation. As I understand it, in fact, many traditional rabbis have over the centuries also interpreted Daniel as predicting the coming of the messiah before the destruction of the 2nd temple (to be more accurate, before the Jewish nation’s loss of the scepter, the ability to control capital punishment). In fact, there are statements in the Talmud, if I remember correctly (and certainly rabbinic literature) commenting on the puzzlement of rabbis as to why the messiah did not come at the appointed time. This led to a body of rabbinic interpretation that he didn’t come when scripture foretold because we weren’t good enough. That’s a nice idea - but not scriptural.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Isa, You Christians love to point out that our Temple was destroyed, and you like to make it sound as if this was because of Jesus…but you forget something…

That was the second Temple, and Jesus was not the only one to foretell its destruction…Jewish literature had foretold it before him, he probably just got it from that. As the saying goes, “Whatever Jesus said that was true, was not new…and what he said that was new, was not true”.

We also had a First Temple which was destroyed, yet I don’t recall any Jesus being anywhere around when that happened either.

We will again have a Third Temple, before long…and the fact that the Muslims are on the Temple Mount means nothing…we believe in the coming of a King Messiah who, with God’s help, will be more than adequately able to “move” them!

I bring up that the Temple is destroyed (I’ve been there, btw. Almost got thrown out because I was reading a Bible by the Muslim authorities) for several reasons, not only the prophecy of Christ on that.

You keep on making an appeal to Jewish authority. Well where is it? It was, according to the OT or even the Tanakh embodied in the Temple, its cult and its priesthood. And by Temple I don’t mean synagog, which has no scriptural warrant in the Tanakh (though it does in the OT and NT). Btw, in the Orthodox Churches the sanctuaries are referred to as the “Temple” because that is what they are.

So where is your authority to say what is or is not based on the Pentateuch etc.? Where is your authority to say who is a member of the covenant of Abraham and of Sinai?

Where is your copyright to the Scriptures of Ancient Israel?

As for the destruction of the Temple because of Christ. Well, first since He was the True Temple, there wasn’t any need for the shadow (btw, the readings on the Theotokos’ holidays are on the Temple, as she held within her Him who the Heavens, nor the Temple, could contain, but she gave Him the Temple of His Body).

Hegiseppus, a second century Jewish convert, writes that Vespasian started the seige when the Pharisees and Sadduccess martyred St. James, the first patriarch of Jerusalem (St. Epiphanios says that the Episcosopal throne is the promise of David’s throne for ever in Jerusalem). Josephus mentions him (Jewish enough?). I have a study of “James the Just and Christian Origins” that shows the sources that talk of the destruction of the Temple being from him being martyred (he was thrown from it).
books.google.com/books?id=5SHbjAKaBy0C&pg=PP4&lpg=PP4&dq=james+the+just+and+christian+origins&source=web&ots=RatAkp590V&sig=MCfC5fHY0jc67wkQowFv74GOGPE&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result

On the First Temple, the NT explains that too: its destruction should show that God does not live in habitations by the hands of Man, and the shortcomings of the Old Law.

As for the “Third Temple,” again, where is your authority?

Aren’t you sweeping that under the rug of a “first coming?” but it won’t fly for knowledgable Gentiles (and Hebrews). Sorry.

 

[Sepharad]

I would like to know if the Jewish literature made any association between the destruction of the Temple and the disbelief of the Jews in a certain Messiah. More, what Jesus was primarily concerned with was the destruction of His own body, which represented the Temple.

No, it does not. What the Jewish literature says is that the Second Temple would be destroyed due to sinat chinam (baseless hatreds) amongst Jews.

I know this is hard for Christians to accept, but Jesus is not, never has been, nor ever will be the center of our world.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Angelos;4009457:

I would like to know if the Jewish literature made any association between the destruction of the Temple and the disbelief of the Jews in a certain Messiah. More, what Jesus was primarily concerned with was the destruction of His own body, which represented the Temple.

No, it does not. What the Jewish literature says is that the Second Temple would be destroyed due to sinat chinam (baseless hatreds) amongst Jews.

I know this is hard for Christians to accept, but Jesus is not, never has been, nor ever will be the center of our world.

and we know it is hard for Jews to accpet, but Jesus is, has been, and ever will be the center of a great number of Isralites of the seed of Abraham (perhaps, as I pointed out, the majority) who have accepted Him as the Messiah.

But again, given the post-Christ reaction to the Septuagint, the creation of the Masoretic text, the laws and curses set against the minim (the Judeo-Christians), the down playing of the Messiah vis-a-vis Moses (Maimonodes saying that even the Messiah would not be greater than Moses), the ceassing to kneel in worship (openly admitted in reaction to Christian practice) etc., me thinks thou dost protest too much.

 

[Sepharad]

Sepharad;4011480:

and we know it is hard for Jews to accpet, but Jesus is, has been, and ever will be the center of a great number of Isralites of the seed of Abraham (perhaps, as I pointed out, the majority) who have accepted Him as the Messiah.

But again, given the post-Christ reaction to the Septuagint, the creation of the Masoretic text, the laws and curses set against the minim (the Judeo-Christians), the down playing of the Messiah vis-a-vis Moses (Maimonodes saying that even the Messiah would not be greater than Moses), the ceassing to kneel in worship (openly admitted in reaction to Christian practice) etc., me thinks thou dost protest too much.

If not for the last 2000 years of “Christians” shoving their beliefs down our throats, with forced conversionary sermons, forced baptisms, exiles due to refusal to convert, lies about Jews poisoning wells, lies about Jewish ritual murder and all the rest, I’d think an open-minded person would understand why we are afraid of many of those who speak of a “god of love” while historically, often threatening us with death.

We Jews don’t listen to what is said as much as watch what professing Christians do. As my (formerly Baptist) husband used to say, “I’d rather see a sermon than hear one, any day!”

If you want to learn how to be a real Christian, go to the Amish. At least they walk the walk and don’t just talk the talk.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

If not for the last 2000 years of “Christians” shoving their beliefs down our throats, with forced conversionary sermons, forced baptisms, exiles due to refusal to convert, lies about Jews poisoning wells, lies about Jewish ritual murder and all the rest, I’d think an open-minded person would understand why we are afraid of many of those who speak of a “god of love” while historically, often threatening us with death.

Not to be nit picky, but the the history of persecution started at the hands of the Jews, expulsion from the synagog, from the Temple, handing over to the Roman authorities, etc.

And I’ve been to the Holy Land today. The fist thing I saw when I entered Jerusalem was a church with Stars of David spray painted all over it. Last time I was there I saw the relics of martyrs killed by the IDF.

We Jews don’t listen to what is said as much as watch what professing Christians do. As my (formerly Baptist) husband used to say, “I’d rather see a sermon than hear one, any day!”

SOMETHING WE AGREE ON.

Btw, may I ask, is your husband a Jew? Did he become one via the B’nei Noach?

If you want to learn how to be a real Christian, go to the Amish. At least they walk the walk and don’t just talk the talk.

I actually agree with much of this. I’d say something about monastics and missionaries (using Mother of Theresa as an exmample, but there are far more), but I have a feeling I’d know your reaction to that one.

 

[Sepharad]

Not to be nit picky, but the the history of persecution started at the hands of the Jews, expulsion from the synagog, from the Temple, handing over to the Roman authorities, etc.

And I’ve been to the Holy Land today. The fist thing I saw when I entered Jerusalem was a church with Stars of David spray painted all over it. Last time I was there I saw the relics of martyrs killed by the IDF.

SOMETHING WE AGREE ON.

Btw, may I ask, is your husband a Jew? Did he become one via the B’nei Noach?

I actually agree with much of this. I’d say something about monastics and missionaries (using Mother of Theresa as an exmample, but there are far more), but I have a feeling I’d know your reaction to that one.

The first Christians tried entering our synagogues, disrupting services and preaching to Jews who were not interested in their message.

To try to prevent that from continuing, the rabbis instituted a prayer against the minim (Jewish heretics)…figuring the Jewish Christians would not be able to say a prayer against themselves, and would leave. It worked.

And we have been paying for that little bit of self-protection ever since. 2000 years later and Christians still don’t understand that we just want to be left alone.

As for your comments about the zionists and the IDF, you’re barking up the wrong tree. I am a religious Jew, not a zionist.

As for my husband, yes he is an (Orthodox) Jew. He was raised Baptist, became 7th Day Adventist and finally converted to Orthodox Judaism (this was all before I met him, however.)

 

[Isa_Almisry]

The first Christians tried entering our synagogues, disrupting services and preaching to Jews who were not interested in their message.

You mean entering their synagogues. And my understanding is that any could get up and preach (except to proclaim Jesus is the Messiah it seems).

To try to prevent that from continuing, the rabbis instituted a prayer against the minim (Jewish heretics)…figuring the Jewish Christians would not be able to say a prayer against themselves, and would leave. It worked.

yes, we’ve gone over this before.

Yes, leaving quite a legacy of good will when the Church became in the ascendent. As you sow…

And no, it was directed at the Judea-Christians, as the other groups associated with (Samaritans, Sadduccess, etc.) wouldn’t be in the synagogue in the first place. There is also evidence that the original wording had Nazerim (Nazarenes).

Didn’t work as well as they hoped: the service became the Liturgy of the Word, as the Divine Liturgy spread, not constrained by ethnocentrism, throughout the world.

And we have been paying for that little bit of self-protection ever since. 2000 years later and Christians still don’t understand that we just want to be left alone.

Sorry. I’ve been to modern Jerusalem and the Holy Land. There’s more to it.

As for your comments about the zionists and the IDF, you’re barking up the wrong tree. I am a religious Jew, not a zionist.

Good for you!

So Zionists and the IDF (except the Druze) aren’t Jews?

As for my husband, yes he is an (Orthodox) Jew. He was raised Baptist, became 7th Day Adventist and finally converted to Orthodox Judaism (this was all before I met him, however.)

Regarding the last comment, I don’t doubt his sincerity. That is the reason why I asked about the B’nei Noach. I don’t doubt their sincerity. They are just going down where solo scripture and the rejection of the Catholic canon goes. 7th Day Adventist the same (btw, the Russian Judaizers seem to have been similar).

 

[Lapell]

Sepharad, you are speaking as though the first Christians were not in their synagogues as Jews… Saul/Paul of Tarse himself, the first times he preached in the synagogues, did so when invited to speak out. If you call that disrupting…
Also. all the things you have said here might be believed by all the religious Jews “deeply” rooted in Orthodox Judaism… They assume that Jesus can’t possibly be the real Messiah! Only… how are you so sure you will recognize the Messiah when he comes. You said yourself that the rabbis can make mistakes. So I take it that SURE signs of the real Messiah are to be found in the Old Testament only, since anything the Sages of Israel would say would derive from the TaNaKH (or is it just from the Torah?)
You also say that the Christians are using the “rug” of a second coming… if Jesus hasn’t resurrected, you would be right.
And that is the problem: he didn’t show himself to the Jewish authorities, neither to the sages of the time, neither to most of the people of Israel… only to a few Jews… well, to the Apostles, to the 3 women who had gone to Jesus’tomb and who saw it was empty, to 2 disciples heading to Emmaus, and also to 500 people at the same time, and then to Saul of Tarse on the road to Damascus. Not many people compared to the whole people of Israel back then! Funny that the Christian faith was able to maintain itself for nearly 2000 years. (If Jesus died in the year 30, then it’s not quite been 2000 years since then, just some 1972 years now, if we say the Church was born at the day of the Pentecost the same year Jesus had died on a cross…)

 

[Lapell]

But if Jesus DID resurrect, then the second coming IS a possibility!
We believe it will happen, because the resurrected Jesus promised so. So we have been told, and so we believe it.
You Jews don’t believe it, and we admit it’s not an automatic thing to believe in since Jesus resurrected only appeared to a few.
Why it is so, we don’t know. We do trust that God does know, though, and so in Him we trust…
that all Jewish scholars say that this couldn’t not be doesn’t automatically mean that they were right! That to them Jesus is no Messiah doesn’t necessarily mean he is not one! We believe that he is.
While Shabbattai Zvi quit his claims and other false Messiahs also quit their claims before they died, Jesus did not. Not even on the cross, when he was about to die.
(I guess the Rebbe, I forgot his full name, must also have claimed not to be the Messiah at one point before his death even if some of his disciples still believe that he is!)

 

[Lapell]

So it might be a little early to declare that jesus was indeed a liar and a blasphemer and that he was not the Messiah…
And God the Son! How can you prove us that He was NOT?
Sure, a man cannot by himself become God. But if God really is God, can’t He become a man? And who are we to tell Him how to act like God, eh?

 

[Isa_Almisry]

But if Jesus DID resurrect, then the second coming IS a possibility!
We believe it will happen, because the resurrected Jesus promised so. So we have been told, and so we believe it.
You Jews don’t believe it, and we admit it’s not an automatic thing to believe in since Jesus resurrected only appeared to a few.
Why it is so, we don’t know. We do trust that God does know, though, and so in Him we trust…
that all Jewish scholars say that this couldn’t not be doesn’t automatically mean that they were right! That to them Jesus is no Messiah doesn’t necessarily mean he is not one! We believe that he is.
While Shabbattai Zvi quit his claims and other false Messiahs also quit their claims before they died, Jesus did not. Not even on the cross, when he was about to die.
(I guess the Rebbe, I forgot his full name, must also have claimed not to be the Messiah at one point before his death even if some of his disciples still believe that he is!)

Actually I don’t believe he ever claimed to be, and since he spent his last days paralyzed and unable to speak, he wouldn’t be able to quite his claims.