Joesph Smith and the Civil War prophecy

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Robert,

I’m hoping this is not the case… I suppose he hasn’t yet fully engaged any of my questions… and he does seem to be a little preoccupied with Socrates. :confused:

Zerinus, if you’re anything but genuine, please move on… pride is not something to openly display. And we can’t trust all our faith to the spirit realm. Prayer and the interpretations of its answers must be tempered with sound reason… God afterall gave us the faculty, one of his greatest gifts, and we are meant to exercise it.

RAR

p.s. Soapbox, I leave you. 😃
I am not trying to understand Zerinus. I am trying to point where the LDS have gone wrong and why it is a false chruch. I do not plan to convert but hope to show others in the errors of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.
 
Why no temples in Missouri? The reason is simple. The missourians had hardened their hearts against the mormons. And why might you all ask? The answer is simple:

Early Plans Abandoned

At the same time the Kirtland Temple was being built, a group of several temples was being planned for Independence (Jackson County), Missouri. These plans were thwarted when Mormons and Missourians proved unable to get along with each other. The political, social, economic, and religious gulf between the two groups was too wide to breach, especially when Mormons published an editorial in their newspaper in 1833 inviting free men of color to join the church. Slave-state Missourians responded by forcibly pushing Mormons out of Jackson County. Several church members died in the process. As a result, the planned temples in Independence were not built. Later, temples were conceived for Far West (Caldwell County) and Adam-ondi-Ahman (Daviess County), Missouri, but these too were abandoned. In the fall of 1838, problems between Missourians and Mormons escalated into in a series of armed skirmishes that historians call the Missouri Mormon War of 1838. The result was that Mormons were expelled from the state and fled to Nauvoo, Illinois, and elsewhere.

Interesting isn’t it? The lds church invited free men of color to join their church. The local racist crowds drove the mormons out and killed a few mormons also. Such was life in the USA. Human imperfection cut the prophecy short as would be the case.

signaturebookslibrary.org/essays/mormontemple.htm
 
Why no temples in Missouri? The reason is simple. The missourians had hardened their hearts against the mormons. And why might you all ask? The answer is simple:

Early Plans Abandoned

At the same time the Kirtland Temple was being built, a group of several temples was being planned for Independence (Jackson County), Missouri. These plans were thwarted when Mormons and Missourians proved unable to get along with each other. The political, social, economic, and religious gulf between the two groups was too wide to breach, especially when Mormons published an editorial in their newspaper in 1833 inviting free men of color to join the church. Slave-state Missourians responded by forcibly pushing Mormons out of Jackson County. Several church members died in the process. As a result, the planned temples in Independence were not built. Later, temples were conceived for Far West (Caldwell County) and Adam-ondi-Ahman (Daviess County), Missouri, but these too were abandoned. In the fall of 1838, problems between Missourians and Mormons escalated into in a series of armed skirmishes that historians call the Missouri Mormon War of 1838. The result was that Mormons were expelled from the state and fled to Nauvoo, Illinois, and elsewhere.

Interesting isn’t it? The lds church invited free men of color to join their church. The local racist crowds drove the mormons out and killed a few mormons also. Such was life in the USA. Human imperfection cut the prophecy short as would be the case.

signaturebookslibrary.org/essays/mormontemple.htm
So, you’re saying that God did not foresee this, and what He planned for the mormons was thwarted by men?

That’s what happens when you have a false god who is but a man, you get false prophecies.
 
Zer:

Was this the only prophecy Joseph Smith gave us about modern times, or were there others?
There are not many. It was not the primary purpose of Joseph Smiths’s mission to foretell future events. Moses didn’t spend much time foretelling future events; yet he was the greatest prophet that Israel had ever had. Joseph Smith’s calling was something similar to that of Moses. His mission was to restore the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ on earth, organize God’s only true Church on earth by revelation from the Lord, with all the keys, priesthood, powers, and gifts of the Holy Ghost that the primitive church had, and open up a new dispensation of the gospel in the world—the dispensation of the fullness of times.

It is also a mistake to assume that the primary purpose of a prophet is to foretell future events. The primary function of a prophet is to be God’s mouthpiece on earth. He conveys to mankind the word of the Lord—what God wants them to hear. He is God’s spokesman. That may or may not include foretelling future events, as the Lord may will it. But his primary role is to call people to repentance, and to obedience to the commandments of God.

Joseph Smith’s calling, however, was far greater than that of an ordinary prophet. He stands at the head of this dispensation—the dispensation of the fullness of times—in which God has said He will “gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth” (Ephesians 1:10). It is the greatest and last dispensation of all time.

zerinus
 
Robert,

I’m hoping this is not the case… I suppose he hasn’t yet fully engaged any of my questions… and he does seem to be a little preoccupied with Socrates. :confused:

Zerinus, if you’re anything but genuine, please move on… pride is not something to openly display. And we can’t trust all our faith to the spirit realm. Prayer and the interpretations of its answers must be tempered with sound reason… God afterall gave us the faculty, one of his greatest gifts, and we are meant to exercise it.

RAR

p.s. Soapbox, I leave you. 😃
I conclude that you are not genuinely interested in knowing the truth, therefore you will not be receiving many more replies from me, unless I perceive a change in your attitude.

zerinus
 
Joseph Smith’s calling, however, was far greater than that of an ordinary prophet. He stands at the head of this dispensation—the dispensation of the fullness of times—in which God has said He will “gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth” (Ephesians 1:10). It is the greatest and last dispensation of all time.

zerinus
Paul was speaking of Christ Himself.

This is where mormons are led astray in the worst way. Smith is not the center of God’s Church, Christ is.
 
Okay, lets see just how well you will do. Make a prophecy about the future as detailed as JS’s was and lets see how it turns out…go ahead…make a prediction.
Behold! New changes, yet unheard of, will befall man in the days to come. America will have a new face. Cosmopolitan not only in feel but in appearance. The rift between old comers and new comers will dissolve. The immigrant Mexicans will join hand in hand and America will grow, ever more benefited. Europe, dissolved in the faith, will succumb to Muslim invasion, but not become fully Muslim. The Christian faith will remain, but only as a dim light. Look to Africa! From her will come real disciples of Christ. To England, France, Spain and Belgium will they be sent. The dim light will in Europe will then steadily grow. China–the sleeping Dragon–will spread her wings. America will continue to decline in power, and will lose influence in the Middle East, but will maintain her borders. A new hydro-based fuel will make petroleum-based fuel all but obsolete for automobiles. Paper money will vanish in America. ID payment cards will be the norm.

The Pope will be a liberal by the standards of today, but he will be widely applauded by Roman Catholics. Women will be servers at the altar. Not priests though as we know them today. A new function will be formed for them. Priests but not priests, they will administer the Eucharist. The priest shortage will continue, though priests will still remain, many lent from the new heart of Christianity, Africa. A great schism will occur, between the longers for the old way and those who want to move forward. The one will condemn homosexuality; the other will openly ordain homosexuals as priests. The Pope will stand at a distance, not wanting to alienate either side, both sides claiming allegiance to him.
 
I conclude that you are not genuinely interested in knowing the truth, therefore you will not be receiving many more replies from me, unless I perceive a change in your attitude.

zerinus
Zerinus,

You have only given my questions a passing glance. I can understand a bit as it seems you’ve been on this site for a very long time and have perhaps answered these questions many times… but, my display of “attitude” is only in regards to your being seemingly disingenuine.

I’m in fact giving you the benefit of the doubt and hoping that you are really not “trolling” to score some Catholic converts and bolster your ego.

In fact, you do me a disservice by thinking I wouldn’t notice your shallow answers.

RAR

Well informed Catholics remain Catholic.
 
… It is also a mistake to assume that the primary purpose of a prophet is to foretell future events. The primary function of a prophet is to be God’s mouthpiece on earth. He conveys to mankind the word of the Lord—what God wants them to hear. He is God’s spokesman. That may or may not include foretelling future events, as the Lord may will it. But his primary role is to call people to repentance, and to obedience to the commandments of God. …
Agreed. That was certainly the purpose of all the prophets of the Old Testament. Jeremiah, for example, spoke these words which had a profound effect on me when i read them:

Therefore this is what the LORD says: “If you repent, I will restore you that you may serve me; if you utter worthy, not worthless, words, you will be my spokesman.” …
(Jeremiah 15:19)

I find it interesting that you speak of having a strong sense that something is true without having any other reason than the Holy Spirit giving you a conviction. When i read these words long ago, i had an incredibly strong feeling that these were God’s personal words to me. I have yet to see these words fulfilled personally for me in any meaningful way, and i’ve often wondered of what sins i must repent and what words are most worthy for me to speak, or whether i’ve simply imagined that the Spirit of God revealed that these words were for me at all.
 
There are not many. It was not the primary purpose of Joseph Smiths’s mission to foretell future events. Moses didn’t spend much time foretelling future events; yet he was the greatest prophet that Israel had ever had. Joseph Smith’s calling was something similar to that of Moses. His mission was to restore the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ on earth, organize God’s only true Church on earth by revelation from the Lord, with all the keys, priesthood, powers, and gifts of the Holy Ghost that the primitive church had, and open up a new dispensation of the gospel in the world—the dispensation of the fullness of times.
…Joseph Smith’s calling, however, was far greater than that of an ordinary prophet. He stands at the head of this dispensation—the dispensation of the fullness of times—in which God has said He will “gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth” (Ephesians 1:10). It is the greatest and last dispensation of all time.

zerinus
Zer:

Funny you should mention Moses. I’m reminded of something he said and wonder if you have read it yourself. Are you aware of what Moses said about the true prophets of God, and how you or i might know the difference between the genuine and the fraud?

🤷
 
Agreed. That was certainly the purpose of all the prophets of the Old Testament. Jeremiah, for example, spoke these words which had a profound effect on me when i read them:

Therefore this is what the LORD says: “If you repent, I will restore you that you may serve me; if you utter worthy, not worthless, words, you will be my spokesman.” …
(Jeremiah 15:19)

I find it interesting that you speak of having a strong sense that something is true without having any other reason than the Holy Spirit giving you a conviction. When i read these words long ago, i had an incredibly strong feeling that these were God’s personal words to me. I have yet to see these words fulfilled personally for me in any meaningful way, and i’ve often wondered of what sins i must repent and what words are most worthy for me to speak, or whether i’ve simply imagined that the Spirit of God revealed that these words were for me at all.
You may have misunderstood that verse. You need to read it in its context. I am more familiar with the KJV, so I will quote from that one:

Jeremiah 15:

15 O Lord, thou knowest: remember me, and visit me, and revenge me of my persecutors; take me not away in thy longsuffering: know that for thy sake I have suffered rebuke.

16 Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O Lord God of hosts.

17 I sat not in the assembly of the mockers, nor rejoiced; I sat alone because of thy hand: for thou hast filled me with indignation.

18 Why is my pain perpetual, and my wound incurable, which refuseth to be healed? wilt thou be altogether unto me as a liar, and as waters that fail?

19 Therefore thus saith the Lord, If thou return, then will I bring thee again, and thou shalt stand before me: and if thou take forth the precious from the vile, thou shalt be as my mouth: let them return unto thee; but return not thou unto them.

20 And I will make thee unto this people a fenced brasen wall: and they shall fight against thee, but they shall not prevail against thee: for I am with thee to save thee and to deliver thee, saith the Lord.

21 And I will deliver thee out of the hand of the wicked, and I will redeem thee out of the hand of the terrible.

Jeremiah had been overwhelmed by the opposition he had received from the Jews, and the great burden of having to convey the word of the Lord to them. He felt that his burden was too much for him, that he couldn’t take it any more. He may have backtracked a little bit, and not communicated the word of God to those people as he should. The Lord gave him that revelation to strengthen and reassure him, that He would be with him and support him, and he need not fear.
Zer:

Funny you should mention Moses. I’m reminded of something he said and wonder if you have read it yourself. Are you aware of what Moses said about the true prophets of God, and how you or i might know the difference between the genuine and the fraud?

🤷
Yes, I do. I am also aware of how Moses (or rather God) distinguished between his own calling and that of an ordinary prophet. You might have forgotten that, so I will quote it here:

Numbers 12:

6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.

7 My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.

8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently , and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the Lord ** shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

Joseph Smith was such a man as Moses was. He was no ordinary prophet.

zerinus
 
Behold! New changes, yet unheard of, will befall man in the days to come. America will have a new face. Cosmopolitan not only in feel but in appearance. The rift between old comers and new comers will dissolve. The immigrant Mexicans will join hand in hand and America will grow, ever more benefited. Europe, dissolved in the faith, will succumb to Muslim invasion, but not become fully Muslim. The Christian faith will remain, but only as a dim light. Look to Africa! From her will come real disciples of Christ. To England, France, Spain and Belgium will they be sent. The dim light will in Europe will then steadily grow. China–the sleeping Dragon–will spread her wings. America will continue to decline in power, and will lose influence in the Middle East, but will maintain her borders. A new hydro-based fuel will make petroleum-based fuel all but obsolete for automobiles. Paper money will vanish in America. ID payment cards will be the norm.

The Pope will be a liberal by the standards of today, but he will be widely applauded by Roman Catholics. Women will be servers at the altar. Not priests though as we know them today. A new function will be formed for them. Priests but not priests, they will administer the Eucharist. The priest shortage will continue, though priests will still remain, many lent from the new heart of Christianity, Africa. A great schism will occur, between the longers for the old way and those who want to move forward. The one will condemn homosexuality; the other will openly ordain homosexuals as priests. The Pope will stand at a distance, not wanting to alienate either side, both sides claiming allegiance to him.
Nice try. You should have made that prediction 30 years ago. The CW forecast was close and it happened.

But I find your pope prediction interesting. Lets hope that your catholic vision does not happen.
 
Here are a couple of my favorites:

Doctrine and Covenants 114

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Far West, Missouri, April 17, 1838. HC 3: 23.

scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/114

David Patten was shot and killed on October 25, 1838, during the Mormon conflict in Missouri, so he was not even alive the next spring, so he certainly wasn’t going to go on a mission. (D.H.C., Vol III, pp. 170-171)
When a prophecy is made much depends on circumstance. Do you think that god interferes in the evilness of men? If the missouri people would have let the members alone, he would have been sent on a mission. But since many of the mobs were murderous, many such revelations were prevented. Satan often has other plans for god’s word and attempts to subvert it and at times is quite successful. Thus, we have David Patten.

However for mormon, he is now serving his ‘mission’ after death.
 
So, you’re saying that God did not foresee this, and what He planned for the mormons was thwarted by men?

That’s what happens when you have a false god who is but a man, you get false prophecies.
We have free will and agency on this earth. If human’s do evil I don’t think that god interfere’s too much. If human beings harden their hearts and do satan’s work, no, it seems that god does not interfere. Does god pre-ordain evil?? Holocaust?

Also a prophecy can also depend on the righteousness of the people receiving the prophecy. In the D & C the saints are often being chastized for their behaviour and punished accordingyly.
 
When a prophecy is made much depends on circumstance. Do you think that god interferes in the evilness of men? If the missouri people would have let the members alone, he would have been sent on a mission. But since many of the mobs were murderous, many such revelations were prevented. Satan often has other plans for god’s word and attempts to subvert it and at times is quite successful. Thus, we have David Patten.
So you are saying that essentially God is fallable?
However for mormon, he is now serving his ‘mission’ after death.
And how is that going for him?
 
Zerinus,

I’m in fact giving you the benefit of the doubt and hoping that you are really not “trolling” to score some Catholic converts and bolster your ego.

I hope you understand that I’m referring to things others have accused you of… “trolling.” As said, it is my hope that you’re sincere and I’ve been trying to give you the benefit of the doubt.

RAR
 
So you are saying that essentially God is fallable?
No, but I would say that free will and agency plays a part in god’s plan. In this case, the man was killed by men who claimed their ‘free agency’ to murder. Why don’t god stop murders? Do you think that life is so preordained for you? We are all affected by our decisions and the decisions of others.
 
RAR;3279997:
Zerinus,

I’m in fact giving you the benefit of the doubt and hoping that you are really not “trolling” to score some Catholic converts and bolster your ego.

I hope you understand that I’m referring to things others have accused you of… “trolling.” As said, it is my hope that you’re sincere and I’ve been trying to give you the benefit of the doubt.

RAR
I think that if people on this section of the forum would stop attacking the lds church, Zerinus would disappear quickly. He has no interest in converting catholics. But he does believe in defending the lds church. Of course this is only my opinion.
 
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