John 6:44 and Eternal Security

[c0achmcguirk]

Hi all,

I’m about to leave for a 3 day camping trip with my family. I appreciate the attempts to answer my questions, but one thing was striking.

No one answered the very relevant questions I raised.

Instead of referring me to the Catechism, other Bible verses (unless they are in the context of the verses I brought up), or just plain ol’ personal theology, I’d like direct answers to the questions I asked.

I notice all too often in this debate that the first thing people do when they can’t answer a question is refer to other verses that don’t speak to the issue. The passages I raised all have to do with God’s sovereignty. They are in the Bible. You can’t sweep them under the rug by just posting other verses. You have to be able to give an answer for them.

I do have Akin’s book, The Salvation Controversy. He’s very close to Calvinism, yet doesn’t believe in Perseverance.

Anyway, would anyone care to take a stab at those questions with direct answers?

God bless,
c0ach

 

[c0achmcguirk]

nucatholic:

Coach, if Calivin was right then there is no need for the great comission.

How so? Calvinists believe that we are still called to preach. God creates the ends and the means. I don’t know who the elect are, so I will preach equally to all.

nucatholic:

However, don’t you know that you have to read the ENTIRE Bible to understand doctrine and faith?

Certainly. That’s why I have been forced to conlude that Calvinism is synonymous with the Gospel.

nucatholic:

Jesus died for ALL sins and he calls ALL to be disciples!

Then, shouldn’t all men be going to heaven? If all sins have been atoned for then there should be no penalty for anyone.

God bless,
c0ach

 

[c0achmcguirk]

DVIN CKS:

If you really want to get down to the nitty gritty of predestination and how the Catholics understand it…you must first understand that the Bible speaks of two different types of predestination.

Hi DVIN CKS, thanks for getting back to me. How would someone with this view answer the questions I asked earlier? The ones about Pharaoh, Pilate, and Isaiah 10? It seems to me that the God was sovereign over all those situations and men could not thwart God’s plans.

God bless,
c0ach

 

[c0achmcguirk]

Before I leave I just want to sum up Calvinism because many here have heard a few things that aren’t true.

First, we believe in free will, just a different free will than what non-Calvinists believe.

As Sproul puts it: “God is free. I am free. If my freedom runs up against God’s freedom, I lose. His freedom restricts mine; my freedom does not restrict his.”

And I am God.
Even from eternity I am He,
And there is none who can delever out of My hand;
I act and who can reverse it?
–Isaiah 43:12-13

The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing well-being and creating calamity;
I am the Lord who does all these.
–Isaiah 45:7

Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass,
Unless the Lord has commanded it?
Is it not from the mouth of the Most High
That both good and ill go forth?
–Lamentations 3:37-38

We have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will.
–Ephesians 1:11

I could go on and on with verses that teach the sovereignty of God–that God is in control of all things. It’s just that we as man are so emotional, so in love with ourselves that we allow that God creates floods and earthquakes, but reject the idea that He would control man.

And yet, that is what the Bible teaches.

God bless,
c0ach

PS: I apppreciate the civil attitude those of you who have responded use. You are to be commended for your zeal and humility.

 

[c0achmcguirk]

petra:

I’m a new Catholic (after being a staunch Calvinist for 22 years) and I still have some theological issues to work out. This is actually a topic I’ll be studying in depth this summer.

Petra, I’m sorry to hear about your abusive marriage. I’ll let the Catholics answer you on 2 Cor 5:17, but I also emphasize to anyone studying Calvinism–read both sides. It’s easy to appear as if you won a debate if you are the only one talking.

So I’d recommend in your study that you pick up either The Potter’s Freedom or Debating Calvinism. They are both by the ever-popular James White

The first to present his case seems right, till another comes forward and questions him.–Proverbs 18:17

I take my own medicine. I read works by Catholic authors and Protestants. There can only be one winner when you study both sides of the issue–you.

God bless,
c0ach

 

[Tom]

Coach, Happy Birthday!!! I tried to say it yesterday but you were gone, sorry.

 

[c0achmcguirk]

Pax:

Predestination of the elect still doesn’t take away their free will either. Your posts would indicate that you believe in “double predestination.” God doesn’t predestine anyone to hell even if He knows that hell is their ultimate destination. God provides all men with sufficient grace to be saved and that is why we are told in 1Timothy 2:4 that God desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

What’s worse: that God predestines someone to hell, or that he created the person knowing full well beforehand that they were going to Hell?

They both seem the same to me. If you object to the former, wouldn’t you object to the latter?

God bless,
c0ach

 

[c0achmcguirk]

Tom:

Coach, Happy Birthday!!! I tried to say it yesterday but you were gone, sorry.

Wow! Thanks. (To be honest I’ve gotten more Happy Birthday wishes from the Catholic Answers Forums than from my family or work combined). You guys are awesome!

 

[speaker]

oh my goodness, i was just finished typing something and i clicked “submit reply” then I wasn’t logged on so i have to type everything over again! ahhh, oh well, i forgive you. (but ultimately i suppose it was my fault.
anyhow, now I will abbreviate everything I originally had typed to post.
one i had a question on the book of Job, and the angels presenting themselves to God and if Christ’s coming had any effect on that event.
then i remembered that someone had once told me (he was quoteing some scripture) that things are not clear now, but later when we be dead, things are clear.
then I remembered someone refering to how scripture wasn’t always numbered with verses. So without a solid position, I went and read john chapter 6 as if there were no numbered verses. (I suppose that is why scripture readings just end with “The Word of the Lord” and not a quotation of numbers like i have experienced at different ‘churches’.

But anyhow, as I was reading chapter 6, It seems to relate to eating Jesus flesh and drinking His blood. i noticed verse hhaaahaa, im using verses even though I said i didn’t want to use verses, (well, i suppose it helps for reference): 39: and this is the will of him who sent me, that i should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. (((( what is ‘’‘it’’’ ? ))))
and then **54: **he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

55: For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56: He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.

60: Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” 61: But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at it, said to them, "Do you take offense at this?

66: After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him. 67: Jesus said to the twelve, “Will you also go away?”

Well, if we take this chapter in its entirity, it would seem to suggest those that the Father brings to Jesus are those that will eat His flesh and drink His blood. ((Because Jesus is that bread, Who-yA! )) So I wonder if “those diciples that left” were predestined to hell because they wouldn’t believe Jesus’ own words. (aka, the Father didn’t 37: All that the Father gives me will come to me; and him who comes to me I will not cast out.

and 39: and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day.

Its interesting to note that catholics are not to take eurcharist if in mortal sin; so thus, if in mortal sin, we are not in christ. (no salvation?) but in repentance, which is the work of the holy spirit? we are drawn by the father to Jesus; to wash away our sins, (i suppose baptism and then later confession) so we can EAT His Flesh and DRINK his blood. —Taste and see that the Lord is good. — (i Don’T know!)

 

[dday6750]

What coincidence in John 6:66 it states that “many of his disciples turned back and no longer went about with him”. (Get it 666). Free Will!!!

I don’t know alot about Scriptures (I’m learning), but I can tell that through out Scripture, God the Father **choose ** people—He Choose Adam and Eve,Moses,Solomon,Mary,Joseph,John the Baptist, and the list goes on. All freely accepted the will of the Father.

The reason “once saved, always saved” is wrong is because it implies that we as humans choose God (at our own time, or when pushed by parents, pastors,friends, etc), but Scriptures clearly states “No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me.” John 6:44.

So— you can go up in front of your congregation and profess the Lord as your “Personal Lord and Savior”, but if it isn’t God drawing you and calling you to do this then it is useless!!! I have seen many children pushed by there parents to do this because they (parents) so firmly believe in the doctrine of “once saved, always saved”. It is sad to promise children that no matter what you do as you grow up, become an adult, and make life decisions that your salvation is granted because you were SAVED!!!

 

[Pax]

c0achmcguirk:

What’s worse: that God predestines someone to hell, or that he created the person knowing full well beforehand that they were going to Hell?

They both seem the same to me. If you object to the former, wouldn’t you object to the latter?

God bless,
c0ach

Happy Birthday cOach, and enjoy your camping trip.

You’ve made a faulty comparison in “What’s worse…” Nothing God does is worse than any other action He takes. And yes there is a world of difference between someone being “predestined” by God to hell, and God’s creating a person even though He knows that hell is their ultimate destination.

God exists outside of time and so his knowledge of events is obviously different from ours. All past, present, and future events in time are all in the “immediate” view of God. Using our own understanding of events in time we can get an understanding of why God’s knowledge is not the same as predestination.

I know that Lee Harvey Oswald assassinated John F. Kennedy. My knowledge of this, however, does not mean that I made Oswald commit the act. Moreover, even if I had known in advance that he was going to kill Kennedy, that still wouldn’t mean that I made him do it. God’s knowledge is simply infinite while ours is not. But His infinite knowledge doesn’t destroy His gift of free will. God loves us enough to make us what we are. Human beings are created by His design with free will and He allows us to exercise it even if it is to our detriment.

If you have James Akin’s book, I would suggest you read it again and again. I’ve read it three times and will read again soon.

 

[Pax]

c0achmcguirk:

…How would someone with this view answer the questions I asked earlier? The ones about Pharaoh, Pilate, and Isaiah 10? It seems to me that the God was sovereign over all those situations and men could not thwart God’s plans.

God bless,
c0ach

It is not necessary for someone to take each of your quotes and refute them in the way that you expect them to. It may even be unreasonable to make such a demand. If the respondents have otherwise provided adequate counter arguments, then perhaps no other analysis is required. I would say that most of the responses have been on target, even though they don’t address the issue precisely the way you expected.

For the sake of your request, however, I will take a shot at explaining one of the verses in your post. I will only address one verse because a post would be too lengthy to include them all. Furthermore, I’m probably not qualified to do an adequate job of it. The verse I will address is the one about Pharoah in Exodus 4:21.

While the sacred author tells us that Yahweh will harden Pharoah’s heart, that does not necessarily have to be taken in an absolute literal sense and here’s why. God is the “first cause” of all things in the divine plan. The ancient writers commonly bypassed secondary causes in their writings and would attribute everything to Yahweh “The First Cause.” They did this at a time when all kinds of idolatry was rampant and it was their intention to safeguard and emphasize Yahweh’s Divine Providence.

Now consider the fact that Pharoah gave Moses and the Israelites a real tough time before he finally let them depart. Even after he agreed to let them go, he then pursued them. God basically left Pharoah to his own devices and ego which hardened his heart. In the end, of course, Pharoah could not thwart God’s plan. Instead, Pharoah’s stubborn refusal to cooperate only made God’s methods to free his people all the more glorious. Was it God forcing Pharoah’s hand, or was Pharoah God’s instrument by the secondary cause of Pharoah’s own heart which, without God’s special intervention, would simply be hardened?

This kind of understanding may or may not apply to the other verses you quoted, but it’s simply put out there for your consideration.

 

[heenan]

In reference to cOach…

This discussion all comes from John 6 - the discourse of the bread of life. I believe that when reading these verses we should be focusing on the Euchrist. St. Augustine, on commenting on vs. 37 and 38, praises the humility of Jesus, the perfect model for the humility of all Christians - for Jesus chose not to do his own will but that of the Father who sent him.

The begining of this discourse, John 6:26, …“truly, truly, I say to you, you seek me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves. 27 Do not labour for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of man will give you; for on him has God the Father set his seal.”

Is it not God’s will that everyone should be save through Jesus Christ?

cOach, I believe that Jesus was revealing himself as the Christ to those who were merely following Christ in a worldy way. If you continue on to John 6:60, many of his disciples, when they heard of it, said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” Many drew back after this and no longer followed him. They did not see Jesus for who he was and is.

It is the spirit that gives us life, not flesh. Jesus is the bread of life. Christ is the Euchrist, the spiritural food. That is what these verses mean to me.

cOach - could John 6:40 - For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him on the last day.

Be referring the Christ here on earth? The Euchrist? For how do we now “see” Jesus, except in the Euchrist?

If we follow Jesus example of humility in doing God’s will and not ours - I believe we all agree that we will have salvation. In doing God’s will we give up our free will.

One last thing and I appologize for referencing another verse, but what are your thoughts on Revelation 3:5 - “The victor will thus be dressed in white, and I will never erase his name from the book of life but will acknowledge his name in the presence of my Father and of his angels.” If one is always saved, how could their name be erased from the book of life?

I humbly submit these to cOach and I would be interested in your thoughts. Thank you and God Bless you.

 

[Elizabeth]

God rescued the Israelites out of Egypt and set before them a promised land according to His will and His divine plan.You could say, He *pre-destined * it, given He probably didn’t come up with the idea 5 minutes before He called Moses over for a word about the escape from Egypt. He chose this as their destination ahead of time - for them, now to be fulfilled at this point in History.

So the Israelites made it to the Promised land in (relatively-speaking!) no time at all (what was it, just under 2 years ??). Great. Ah but no, sorry. You guys chose to rebel repeatedly and with many a stark warning and deterrent; vengeance and punishment. No you may not go in: Even now, you choose to lie and disobey and so you will meander around in the desert for 40 years and most of you will never get to see the promised land which God pre-destined for you.

N.B. God was giving them a wonderful new home which he had planned for them. He did not casually accept their rebellion which was tantamount to rejection of His plans and His gift for them saying ah well, I knew this all along. What now? I guess I just have to resort to plan B. No. He is GOD: His plans are important to Him. He was about to kill them for their disobedience!..Yet because He IS GOD He did know that they would rebel and so also created the lives of Joshua and Caleb so that something of that reconnoitre trip could be redeemed and some of them would be able to go in to the land prepared for them: Another, smaller ‘chosen’ group? A kind of remnant? The uninvited at the banquet?

The point of all this is that somehow pre-destination and our free-will to sin and apparently mess up God’s plans, somehow miraculously go together. Even before the creation of Adam and Eve, Jesus was: They chose to sin. God knew. Jesus was with God, ready.

Another point to note: Moses’ pleadings appear to change God’s plan to strike down the rebels and liars of the same group of spies (Numbers 14). Yet another facet of the way God works; responding to our petitions in order to bring about His will. We shouldn’t become fatalistic. He accomplishes much (if not most) of what He does through us and with us so that we will eventually become like Him, oh and for so many other reasons probably, too: He’s God!

It is so beautiful - God’s amazing plan and purpose that with all the analysis in the world (this present one of course) we will not fully comprehend the intricacies of His works and how He makes all things work together…We do know that He very much wants us to be involved and not to sit back in complacency for the rest of our lives.

When we truly begin to know and love Jesus why wouldn’t we want to serve him ‘all our days’ anyway??

                                              :D

Ok one final thing: Supposing the word ‘draw’ in the question right at the beginning of the thread *did * mean a discrete action, a one-time only move on God’s part. In God’s out-of-time nature, couldn’t that refer to a very long period of time anyway, for us, as if it were more in the sense of drawing someone over time? You know, classic ref. to one day being like a thousand for God etc.? After all, it was Him saying it wasn’t it? Just a thought!

 

[DVIN_CKS]

To say that some have been predestined to heaven (the ‘elect’) by God and that these ‘elect’ can never lose their salvation…well then my question is…What kind of assurance does that logic REALLY provide since one doesn’t know for sure if he/she is one of the TRUE ‘elect’ until they die? So, at best, you live your whole life hoping you are one of the ‘elect’ or you’re left wondering “am I” or “aren’t I”? Doesn’t sound like much assurance to me!

And if you are one who thinks you are predestined to heaven and therefore don’t have to worry about your salvation…why read the Bible? The New Testament teaches us how to live Christian lives according to the teachings of Jesus in the hopes that we too can join Him in heaven some day. If my salvation is already guarenteed…I wouldn’t need this teaching now, would I?

 

[Tom]

In determinism, the predestination would mean we have absolutely no chance of gaining or losing our salvation, after all it’s Gods plan, and, our free will can’t go against Gods will.
So if one is predestined to heaven and another predestined to hell, what would be the reason for Jesus to die on the cross?
He couldn’t really save you since we’re already predestined for heaven or hell. If we’re predestined there is no salvation in our Lord Jesus the Christ, it’s all predetermined by Gods plan.
That is totally opposite from the message of Scripture. Yes God has a plan, but, He doesn’t force you to follow. Even God Himself has a free will, why would Jesus be tempted if there were no point?
The message of the entire Bible tells us that God tells us His plan, for a while we follow, then we fall away, He punishes us for falling away, we wake up and ask for His forgiveness, He forgives, reminds us of His plan and the cycle starts over again.
The greatest gift God gives us is our free will. He wants us to follow His plan, but He won’t force us. In His perfect love He will allow us to fail, He doesn’t intend us to be puppets.

 

[FrancisDeSales]

Here is my interpretation of John 6. I invite all Catholics and non-Catholics to critique it, since I’m still trying to understand what these passages are trying to say. I don’t think that this verse teaches eternal security at all, and can be given a good Catholic sense.

John 6:37: “Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and I will not reject anyone who comes to me.”

Agreed. The elect are the ones who are given by the Father to the Son. These elect will not be rejected by the Son after they come to Jesus. No problem here. Catholics emphatically believe that the elect will indeed not be cast out by Christ. The Greek verbs used for “gives” and “come” are the present tense, which roughly translates to “keeps giving” and “keeps coming.” I have no problem with that; those who the Father keeps giving (the elect) will keep coming to Christ and will be saved.

John 6:39- “And this is the will of the one who sent me, that I should not lose anything of what he gave me, but that I should raise it on the last day.”

Also, no problem here. The ones who were given will indeed not be lost. That’s because the ones who were given are the elect. Catholics believe that Jesus will not lose the elect.

John 6:40- “For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him will have eternal life, and I shall raise him on the last day.”

The Greek verbs used for “sees” and “believes” are present tense again, so those who “keep seeing” and “keep believing” will indeed be raised up. Catholics have no problem saying that the elect will be raised up.

John 6:44- “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him, and I will raise him on the last day.”

Finally, not a problem here either. Nobody can come to the Son unless they are drawn. Those who come to the Son will indeed be saved. But does this passage mention anything about those who resist the drawing by the Father? It’s perfectly reasonable to believe that all people will be drawn by the Father, certain people will resist this motion of God, and they will not end up coming to Jesus.

For example, not sure exactly where, but the book of Acts mentions those people who “resist the holy Spirit.” Jesus also mentions in John 12:32 that he will draw all to himself when he is lifted from the earth. This shows that all people will be drawn by God, certain people will resist this motion, thus these people will not come to Jesus and be saved.

This is the only interpretation I could think of. If there are any other Catholics or Arminians here who would like to provide some exegesis of these 4 passages, please do so!

 

[c0achmcguirk]

Pax:

I know that Lee Harvey Oswald assassinated John F. Kennedy. My knowledge of this, however, does not mean that I made Oswald commit the act.

However, if God wrote in Scripture, perhaps at the end of Revelations, that “On November 24, 1963 a man named Oswald will assasinate President Kennedy”, and Oswald stumbled across the verse–would he be able to avoid the assasination? Would he have the free will to thwart God’s prediction?

God bless,
c0ach

 

[c0achmcguirk]

Pax:

Was it God forcing Pharoah’s hand, or was Pharoah God’s instrument by the secondary cause of Pharoah’s own heart which, without God’s special intervention, would simply be hardened?

Thanks Pax for attempting to answer the question.

So how does this “first cause” explanation work with Romans 9? Romans 9 specifically mentions the Pharaoh situation in vv. 14-18:

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
–Romans 9:14-18

Is God speaking of “first causes and second causes” here?

God bless,
c0ach

 

[c0achmcguirk]

heenan:

This discussion all comes from John 6 - the discourse of the bread of life. I believe that when reading these verses we should be focusing on the Euchrist.

Indeed there are several topics going on in John 6, what I want to know is how the Eucharist applies to John 6:36-40,44? How does it fit into the drawing, the coming, and being lifted up at the last day? How does it fit into being lost by the Son? I don’t see how it fits, so if you could clarify I’d appreciate it.

heenan:

One last thing and I appologize for referencing another verse, but what are your thoughts on Revelation 3:5 -…If one is always saved, how could their name be erased from the book of life?

Note that it doesn’t say that it is possible to be erased or “blotted out” it just says that those who are saved will never be blotted out of the Lamb’s Book of Life (cf. Rev 21:27). I agree 100%. This is Perseverance of the Saints.

Thanks for your good questions and humble attitude, heenan,
God bless,
c0ach