John 6:44 and Eternal Security

[c0achmcguirk]

Elizabeth:

Another point to note: Moses’ pleadings appear to change God’s plan to strike down the rebels and liars of the same group of spies (Numbers 14). Yet another facet of the way God works; responding to our petitions in order to bring about His will.

Hi Elizabeth, thanks for your thoughts on this difficult issue.

Now, I noticed that you point to the Israelites rebellion and God’s plan for the Promised Land as proof of our free will. However, it is the Calvinist who would say that God ordains the means and the ends.

For example, in Genesis 50 Joseph tells his brothers:

You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives.
–Genesis 50:20

Remember, Joseph’s brothers sold him into slavery–a horrible sinful deed. Yet, the Bible teaches us that God had that planned.

Same thing with the Israelites rebellion…God ordained the means-rebellion, and the end-40 years in the desert, which ultimately led to the greatest lesson the Israelites learned. Yes, God uses bad things and good things to accomplish His goals.

In the same way God leads us to pray for things that ultimately lead to answered prayers. So when Moses pleads to God, God uses the opportunity to teach Moses about his faithfulness.

It was God’s plan to make it difficult for them to leave Egypt. He continually hardened Pharaoh’s heart so that they would not be able to leave (cf. Exodus 4:21) and yet it was God’s plan that Moses should rescue them. Does this not indicate that God’s sovereignty in men’s hearts as well as in accomplishing His plans in His time?

God bless,
c0ach

 

[c0achmcguirk]

DVIN CKS:

What kind of assurance does that logic REALLY provide since one doesn’t know for sure if he/she is one of the TRUE ‘elect’ until they die?

Great question DVIN CKS!

I don’t claim to have infallible knowledge of my being part of the elect. I only claim sufficient knowledge of it, based on what the Bible says about those who are saved.

And if you are one who thinks you are predestined to heaven and therefore don’t have to worry about your salvation…why read the Bible?

But I am concerned about my salvation…I, like you, try to “continue to work out [my] salvation with fear and trembling” (Phil 2:12), and love to read the Bible.

I’m only speaking of the truth that a true Christian can fall away–not that anyone can have infallible knowledge of whether or not they are a true Christian.

God bless,
c0ach

 

[c0achmcguirk]

Tom:

In determinism, the predestination would mean we have absolutely no chance of gaining or losing our salvation, after all it’s Gods plan, and, our free will can’t go against Gods will.

All men are born depraved and willingly reject God, and deserve Hell. And if, after they die and go to Hell, they would still reject God and march proudly back downstairs to Hell.

Natural man (those who are not elect, or born again, or regenerate–whatever term you prefer) is simply unable to come to God and obey Him. (cf. 1 Cor 2:14, JN 8:34-48, Romans 3:10-11, and Romans 8:7-8)

because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
–Romans 8:7-8

The Greek in the passage says in the strongest language possible that he who is in the flesh **IS NOT ABLE ** to please God. (ou dunatai)

So don’t focus on the fact that some go to Hell, but the amazing fact that some are allowed to go to Heaven!

Tom:

So if one is predestined to heaven and another predestined to hell, what would be the reason for Jesus to die on the cross?

If one reads the Old Testament requirements of the law, and reads about the sacrifices and offerings God demanded for sin, the cross’s necessity becomes obvious. God demands payment to atone for sin. Only one sacrifice is perfect and worthy of paying for the sin of His elect.

Tom:

The greatest gift God gives us is our free will. He wants us to follow His plan, but He won’t force us. In His perfect love He will allow us to fail, He doesn’t intend us to be puppets.

But we don’t reject God against our will–we willingly choose to reject Him. We’re born that way. But those who are born again (truly) willingly accept God’s love and bear spiritual fruit for Him. None of us are forced against our will to do anything.

Tom, would men and their free will be able to thwart Jesus’ death on the cross?

Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.
–Acts 4:27-28

 

[c0achmcguirk]

FrancisDeSales:

But does this passage mention anything about those who resist the drawing by the Father? It’s perfectly reasonable to believe that all people will be drawn by the Father, certain people will resist this motion of God, and they will not end up coming to Jesus.

You were doing so well! And I thank you for trying to deal with the text exegetically.

The Bible knows nothing of a group of people who have been drawn but were not lifted up. To imply this contradicts what you agreed with earlier–that those who are drawn will be lifted up. Now you are introducing a new class of believers that are drawn and are NOT lifted up–hence Christ fails in His mission.

Jesus also mentions in John 12:32 that he will draw all to himself when he is lifted from the earth. This shows that all people will be drawn by God, certain people will resist this motion, thus these people will not come to Jesus and be saved.

The truth is the objects of the word “draw” in John 12:32 are different than those in John 6, or else the Bible teaches Univeralism (all men are saved) and we know that isn’t true.

I believe the phrase “all men” in John 12:32 is referring to Jews and Gentiles by looking at the context (note that it is talking about Greeks in John 12:20-22). (Go ahead, read John 12:20-32 if you have the chance).

You still aren’t reading the passage…I meant it, read the passage (John 12:20-32)!

Now that you’ve finished reading the passsage, ask yourself–does the Cross draw every single individual man (and woman)? Of course not! The cross is foolishness to Gentiles and a stumbling block to the Jews (1 Cor 1:22-24).

1 Corinthians 1:22-24 tell us that those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks and that gives us a fuller understanding of John 12. That the cross draws all men, the Jews ***AND ** * the Gentiles to Himself.

To disagree, you’d need to show that the word “draw” must have the same exact meaning *and objects * in both contexts. And as I’ve shown, to do so would introduce Universalism–a heresy.

I leave you with a passage where Jesus describes the elect and the non-elect…notice that Jesus leaves no room for a class of people who is drawn but resists:

Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.
–John 8:43-48

NOTE: Those who are not of God (elect) are unable to hear Jesus.

God bless you!
c0ach

 

[Pax]

c0achmcguirk:

However, if God wrote in Scripture, perhaps at the end of Revelations, that “On November 24, 1963 a man named Oswald will assasinate President Kennedy”, and Oswald stumbled across the verse–would he be able to avoid the assasination? Would he have the free will to thwart God’s prediction?

God bless,
c0ach

With all due respect and I mean no offense, but you are engaging in exegetical sophistry. You are misusing my example of Oswald and not letting the simplicity of the explanation sink in. Obviously, no one thwarts God’s plan and that point has been dealt with in several earlier posts.

If Oswald stumbled across your hypothetical verse it would make no difference. He simply would choose by his own free will to commit the crime anyway. Everyone including Oswald knows that murder is wrong in the eyes of God. He like every other murderer makes a choice to do the evil deed knowing full well that God condemns the act, and that it is punishable by eternity in hell. Inspite of reading the bible and knowing this, murderers do it anyway.

The act itself can never thwart God’s will. God uses our free choices, random acts of nature, good deeds and bad, and who knows what else to make our crooked lines straight. Part of God’s will by his act of creation is to give us free will. And once again, if you don’t think that people act according to their own wills and that they can resist God’s grace then you need to read Acts 7:51 where Stephen says, “You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you are forever opposing the Holy Spirit, just as your ancestors used to do.” And keep in mind that scripture tells us that Stephen was filled with the Holy Spirit when he said these things.

Obviously, we can resist the Holy Spirit. Does that mean the Holy Spirit fails in His mission? Obviously, it does not!

So please give it up already!!

 

[Tom]

Coach, I hope you know i’m not trying to be argumentative, but, I do not agree with your reasoning.
“In determinism, the predestination would mean we have absolutely no chance of gaining or losing our salvation, after all it’s Gods plan, and, our free will can’t go against Gods will.”

c0achmcguirk:

All men are born depraved and willingly reject God, and deserve Hell. And if, after they die and go to Hell, they would still reject God and march proudly back downstairs to Hell.

That not only didn’t answer the question it seems to refute predestination. You’re saying it’s Gods will for all men to be “depraved and willingly reject God”?
If that is Gods will, and we can’t overpower Gods will, we’re all going to hell. BTW I agree man is born “depraved and willingly reject God”, but, this is the result of original sin, not God’s will. Original sin is the rejection of Gods will. “because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.” Romans 8:7-8
What was the point of

“And if, after they die and go to Hell, they would still reject God and march proudly back downstairs to Hell”.

I don’t understand. After you go to hell, there’s no going back, reject God or not it’s too late.

c0achmcguirk:

If one reads the Old Testament requirements of the law, and reads about the sacrifices and offerings God demanded for sin, the cross’s necessity becomes obvious. God demands payment to atone for sin. Only one sacrifice is perfect and worthy of paying for the sin of His elect.

I think you missed my points. How can anyone sin if it’s all predestined by God? We would have no power to sin since it was all Gods will.

c0achmcguirk:

But we don’t reject God against our will–we willingly choose to reject Him. We’re born that way. But those who are born again (truly) willingly accept God’s love and bear spiritual fruit for Him. None of us are forced against our will to do anything…

Exactly, we choose, that’s our free will. It is not predestined by God. He allows you and I to choose.

 

[c0achmcguirk]

Pax:

With all due respect and I mean no offense, but you are engaging in exegetical sophistry.

The question I asked is very relevant to the issue and cannot be dismissed so easily.

How does God know the future?

It is not an answer to say, “Well, because God is omniscient.” Because that is reiteration of the premise in the question. You are saying God knows the future because God knows the future. It’s circular.

You’re left, as far as I can tell, with three alternatives.

You could say that God is able to predict the future based on calculating the odds of each possible situation and therefore is able accurately predict the future. This assumes that all things can be predicted without outside interference–even electrons.

You could say that God doesn’t know the future, so as to keep man’s free will intact. He just uses hunches and guesses and predictions This is the view held by Open Theists.

Or you could say that God determines the future by His sovereignty and actions. This is the viewpoint I believe the Bible teaches.

A fourth position, that doesn’t seek to answer how God knows the future, is what you are putting forth, and is also the view held by Norm Geisler in Chosen But Free. This is the “God knows the future because He is able to see the future.” This assumes the philosophical meaning of foreknowledge rather than the Biblical one.

Back to the Oswald example–you said that it would be impossible for Oswald to act otherwise. He would *still * assassinate Kennedy. The definition of free will is “the ability to act or to act otherwise.” If Oswald could not act otherwise, as you claim, then does it not follow that Oswald does not have free will?

God bless,
c0ach

 

[c0achmcguirk]

Hi Tom,

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

First I want to clarify…I said that “All men are born depraved and willingly reject God, and deserve Hell.” What I meant is that the natural state of man is to reject God. Without God’s intervention each of us would reject Him and deservedly receive Hell.

However, God draws some (not all) to the Son and the Son, if He is able to uphold the Father’s will, will lift up all that are drawn on the last day (John 6:44).

Tom:

I think you missed my points. How can anyone sin if it’s all predestined by God? We would have no power to sin since it was all Gods will.

I would suggest you read Romans 9 tonight. You almost quoted Romans 9:19 word for word as Paul addresses your very question he says:

Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
–Romans 9:18-21

Who are you, O Tom, to talk back to God? Doesn’t God have the right to elect some and not elect others? Don’t take offense at how I said it, I’m only trying to emphasize the relevance of Romans 9 to this issue.

God bless,
c0ach

 

[c0achmcguirk]

Hi Tom,

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

First I want to clarify…I said that “All men are born depraved and willingly reject God, and deserve Hell.” What I meant is that the natural state of man is to reject God. Without God’s intervention each of us would reject Him and deservedly receive Hell.

However, God draws some (not all) to the Son and the Son, if He is able to uphold the Father’s will, will lift up all that are drawn on the last day (John 6:44).

Tom:

I think you missed my points. How can anyone sin if it’s all predestined by God? We would have no power to sin since it was all Gods will.

I would suggest you read Romans 9 tonight. You almost quoted Romans 9:19 word for word as Paul addresses your very question he says:

Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?–Romans 9:18-21

Who are you, O Tom, to talk back to God? Doesn’t God have the right to elect some and not elect others? Don’t take offense at how I said it, I’m only trying to emphasize the relevance of Romans 9 to this issue.

God bless,
c0ach

 

[Capt_K]

c0achmcguirk:

The question I asked is very relevant to the issue and cannot be dismissed so easily.

How does God know the future?

It is not an answer to say, “Well, because God is omniscient.” Because that is reiteration of the premise in the question. You are saying God knows the future because God knows the future. It’s circular.

You’re left, as far as I can tell, with three alternatives.

You could say that God is able to predict the future based on calculating the odds of each possible situation and therefore is able accurately predict the future. This assumes that all things can be predicted without outside interference–even electrons.

You could say that God doesn’t know the future, so as to keep man’s free will intact. He just uses hunches and guesses and predictions This is the view held by Open Theists.

Or you could say that God determines the future by His sovereignty and actions. This is the viewpoint I believe the Bible teaches.

A fourth position, that doesn’t seek to answer how God knows the future, is what you are putting forth, and is also the view held by Norm Geisler in Chosen But Free. This is the “God knows the future because He is able to see the future.” This assumes the philosophical meaning of foreknowledge rather than the Biblical one.

Back to the Oswald example–you said that it would be impossible for Oswald to act otherwise. He would *still * assassinate Kennedy. The definition of free will is “the ability to act or to act otherwise.” If Oswald could not act otherwise, as you claim, then does it not follow that Oswald does not have free will?

God bless,
c0ach

I’m afraid you missed the answer to your question entirely. Your question is “How does God know the future?” and then you provide a series of ‘answers’. But the fact is that God doesn’t know the future. He knows the Present. All time is one for Him, He doesn’t change so He can’t ‘learn’ from ‘future’ events. He knows what He has created - all of eternity is created.

Time only applies to humanity. We are the spirit and body beings who experience time and change. The angels don’t, we do.

God knows what will be because it already IS. It’s not that you ‘will’ do something, it is that you already HAVE done it. YOU are the one who needs to learn, not God.

 

[c0achmcguirk]

Capt K:

God knows what will be because it already IS. It’s not that you ‘will’ do something, it is that you already HAVE done it. YOU are the one who needs to learn, not God.

Capt K, welcome to this forum!

If God had somehow revealed in Scripture that in November 1963 a man named Oswald would assasinate a man named Kennedy…and Oswald was able to read and understand the Scripture as he was grabbing his gun and heading out the door, would Oswald be able prevent his actions?

Could anyone have thwarted the crucifixion of Jesus?

Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.
–Acts 4:27-28

What is your definition of free will? The best definition I’ve seen is “the ability to act or to act otherwise.” Would you agree with this definition?

God bless,
c0ach

 

[New_Life]

Hi everyone!

I once held to the position many are advocating now, that God leaves salvation up to man and not Himself; that man has the power to believe *on his own *by his “free will.” But as I began to read and study Scripture, I saw verse after verse after verse which presented a problem to my thinking on the ability of man and the nature of faith and the freedom of God.

For example, many times in Deuteronomy I found verses which stressed the responsibility of man’s choice in obeying God: “And if you faithfully obey the voice of the LORD your God…the LORD God will set you high above all the nations of the earth” (Deut. 28:1, ESV). There are many verses like this all throughout the Bible - man makes real choices and is thus responsible for his decisions! But then I come across verses like these below which just shatter my picture of God’s relationship to man:

2And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them: “You have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land, 3the great trials that your eyes saw, the signs, and those great wonders. 4But to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear” (Deut. 29:2-4, ESV).

Why was this people rebellious, stubborn and disobedient? I knew it was true that they disobeyed because they wanted to and chose to; but in addition to that verse 4 explains in no uncertain terms: “**the LORD [had] not given **[them] a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear” (Dt. 29:4). Now, what I’m I supposed to do with that verse? Ignore it? Pretend it’s not in my Bible? The implications of this verse are powerful and hard to accept. But no matter how much I try to simply sweep that verse under the rug, I know it’s still there.

This is not just a rogue verse found in Scripture - there are tons of these kinds of verses all throughout the Bible which show how God controls and directs the hearts and desires of men, and even controls the actions of men so as to accomplish his ultimate goal. God hardens hearts! God has mercy on some and on others he doesn’t! God is the only being who is truly free in every sense of the word.

I affirm that people can and do make real choices. Calvinism does not deny that. But Deut. 29:4 is a verse *which explains others. *If we understand that it is from the heart that our desires come, and it is from the heart that our desicions are made, then clearly God’s sovereign choice not to give them “a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear” explains their behavior and ***explains ***their real choice decisions. Israel’s heart was harden by God.

God hardens hearts and brings judgement or he opens hearts.
But Sihon the king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him, for the LORD your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, that he might give him into your hand, as he is this day. (Deut. 2:30, ESV).

The verse is also clear. God didn’t ask the king of Heshbon to hand himself over to Israel, God sovereignly hardened the king’s heart, “that he might” (here we read of the purpose of God) give him over to Israel. How can God do that in a libertarian free will world? I’d like to know.

Here we find the opposite, God works in the heart of his people and sovereignly brings about what he wants:

And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live. (Deut. 30:6, ESV).

Here we read that God will do something to the heart first, “so that” (purpose) “you will love the LORD your God with all your heart”. This is exactly what Calvinists believe - that God must work in the heart first to free people (His elect) to love God and believe! Let’s be clear about one thing: God’s working in the heart “so that” people will love God as a result, is not something God does to people who already love him with all their hearts. That would make no sense at all and turn the text on it’s head.

In Christ,
NL

 

[c0achmcguirk]

And a reiteration…

I believe in free will, just that my free will cannot supercede God’s free will.

As Sproul puts it: “God is free. I am free. If my freedom runs up against God’s freedom, I lose. His freedom restricts mine; my freedom does not restrict his.”

Hope that isn’t too confusing.

God bless,
c0ach

 

[New_Life]

Pax:

The act itself can never thwart God’s will. God uses our free choices, random acts of nature, good deeds and bad, and who knows what else to make our crooked lines straight. Part of God’s will by his act of creation is to give us free will. And once again, if you don’t think that people act according to their own wills and that they can resist God’s grace then you need to read Acts 7:51 where Stephen says, “You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you are forever opposing the Holy Spirit, just as your ancestors used to do.” And keep in mind that scripture tells us that Stephen was filled with the Holy Spirit when he said these things.

Obviously, we can resist the Holy Spirit. Does that mean the Holy Spirit fails in His mission? Obviously, it does not!

Hi Pax. When you speak of “free will” what are you saying? That God cannot or will not violate that “gift” he somehow gave mankind? That God has to work around humans to accomplish his ultimate purposes? Scripture answers these issues plainly, I believe, when we read of God hardening hearts, opening hearts, or God circumcising hearts so that people will believe, etc. Our real choices come from the heart. Calvinists believe that we are free to choose what we want all the time - to act according to our strongest desire at a given moment. That’s the freedom that the Bible tells us man has.

Consider Proverbs 21:1: “The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will” (ESV). Mark. R. Talbot, in an article titled “True Freedom: The Liberty That Scripture Portrays as Worth Having” found in the book Beyond the Bounds: Open Theism and the Undermining of Biblical Christianity (edited by Piper, Taylor, and Helseth) explains in a footnote (pp. 81) the implications of this verse:

Proverbs 21:1 implies this as soon as we remember that Scripture identifies our hearts as the core of our personalities, from which all our good and bad acts come (see Luke 6:45). If, then, God turns the king’s heart as easily as we can guide the direction of a small stream of water that is flowing over our hands, then he shapes everything the king does just as he wants. But if God does this with kings, who are of all human beings the most sovereignly powerful, then we ought to expect that he can and does do the same with all of us. In fact Scripture does not wait for us to universalize this point from this text. In Psalm 33:13-15 we find: “The LORD looks down from heaven; he sees all the children of man; from where he sits enthroned he looks out on all the inhabitants of earth, he who fashions the hearts of them all and observes all their deeds.”

It appears that instead of working around people, God works in and through people to accomplish His ultimate goal. He does this by moving the hearts of men - turning them where He wills.

As far as people resisting the Holy Spirit - you are absolutely right! People can and do resist the Holy Spirit everyday. And God can choose to allow people to resist Him all the way to hell. But what the calvinist believes is that God can - at any time and by His sovereign grace - overcome a given person’s resistance! That’s what irresistable grace means. That’s what God did for Lydia (Acts 16:14) and that’s what he did to me - to all who are truly born again.

In Christ,
NL

 

[Capt_K]

c0achmcguirk:

Capt K, welcome to this forum!

If God had somehow revealed in Scripture that in November 1963 a man named Oswald would assasinate a man named Kennedy…and Oswald was able to read and understand the Scripture as he was grabbing his gun and heading out the door, would Oswald be able prevent his actions?

Could anyone have thwarted the crucifixion of Jesus?

Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.
–Acts 4:27-28

What is your definition of free will? The best definition I’ve seen is “the ability to act or to act otherwise.” Would you agree with this definition?

God bless,
c0ach

Curious question. You certainly didn’t understand what I said. The question about Oswald is an indication that you are applying your own experience to the Godhead. Could Oswald ‘change’ what he had already done in eternity? No, because he has already made his free will choice. If God chose to reveal it, it would change nothing. And has no impact on the FACT that Oswald freely choose to do what he did.

You’re hung up on your own expedience of Time. Since you haven’t personally experienced what you have done, you think that God’s knowledge of it somehow means that you aren’t free. All your choices are free - that all your choices have already been made doesn’t change that.

Again and again, you return to this idea that reality can be changed - The Crucifixion is and was and will always be. Same with all of reality. If it were any other way, then God would have to learn something new - and that is a change. God does not CHANGE.

 

[c0achmcguirk]

Capt K:

Curious question. You certainly didn’t understand what I said

I entirely understand what you are saying, so let’s keep it civil.

Again, how could one in your position account for Acts 4:27-28?

It says “They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.”

In your view, God didn’t decide anything, he just looked into the future and saw that men would indeed crucify Jesus. But the passage actually tells us that God decided beforehand what should happen, and the men did it. How does your view fit into this passage?

God bless,
c0ach

 

[c0achmcguirk]

Capt K,

What is your definition of free will? The best definition I’ve seen is “the ability to act or to act otherwise.” Would you agree with this definition?

 

[speaker]

God knows the future because he is outside of time. He IS Eternity?

God lets things flow as a course of events and intervenes only at the times He wills to have his desires and will accomplished. which is to provide the salvation for all men through Jesus Christ? (Not that all men would believe)

He doesn’t control every event. (you could wonder if there really is a creation at all then.) And if there isn’t, is God a liar?

He lets things flow, and intervenes at the ‘right’ times, knowing well, that if He doesn’t we will all die.

Our End is death. (He loves us, and He came to save us)

Hard hearts, the prideful have a hard time accepting the work of the Holy Spirit, because Jesus knocks at our hearts,
if we are not humble, and open the door to a stranger, (i.e. lack of trust, or fear of being taken off our thrones, we are most likely to reject God?
Jesus did thank the father for hiding ‘these things’ from the prudent.

It is the prudent which believe they know how to ‘live’ or survive.

But it is the humble, who believe they cannot survive on their own. We need HelP, or a savior.

(So, God did ‘predestine’ the wisdom of the world to Hell) This relates to His nature and what God is like, which is humility and Love.

– We have as much free-will as God has given us. Doesn’t it say in scripture, in deuteronomy 30:19
This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live …

So this is our choice. Life or death.
He asks us to choose Him because He is life. He loves us.
In the way we live, we will die. But in Him we will live.

He wants us to live. But he will not force us to live. (Humility and love)

Or else, then we paint the picture of a heartless God. God says many things that are meaningless. He also asks many things that are pointless. We paint a prideful God that does what He wants just to show His power.
But remember our God is a God of love.

God could give us 3 choices, life, death, and something else, but He clearly states, that We only have 2 choices. Either die or live. We die in our sins, but we live in Him.

I myself try to raise myself onto thrones. (But remember God promised to make the greatest the least, and the least the greatest.

In the 2 hearts, =], Jesus and Mary.

(keep searching, and asking and knocking; God has all the answers) hopefully, im not using only philosophy to find Him.

 

[speaker]

I would wonder with reference of God hardenign hearts: if there are any verses that say God totally made someone love someone after hating them? It seems that God seems to still give free-will. (Only because the one to make the action come to pass will be us.) BUT, God does seem to also make conditions favorable so that someone may choose a certain path, (but again it seems only because they were on the path already), so that a certain event will come to pass. (In the Old Testament) Ultimately for His plan of salvation through Jesus Christ? God uses the arrogant then, to get His will done. If I could find that verse, i think it was in Hebrews of how many things in the Old Covenant happened so that we could learn from their mistakes.

It would also seem that certain people are more inclined to accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ; It would seem, these kind of people are predestined to Heaven, but really, the only predestinations are those that are already in Heaven. It is hard to preach a sure sure perserverence while still on earth. But I suppose if you look at things from the End to the Start, that kind of perserverence is applicable. (Only the saints make it to heaven) If we look at things from our point of view and not God’s; then we preach a salvation through Jesus Christ crucified and rising from the dead not a, “God has determined everything because He as the power.” God already knows who will be with Him in the end of our lives.

John 6:64: Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.

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This can be a little scare. If our understading comes from God, and not our ‘figuring out’. (so seek Him), then much of what some people are not understanding is like a predestination.

We then ultimately cannot reveal the things of God by ourselves unto others, but require the Spirit of God to reveal these things to those that do not understand?

hmm. I remember Jesus saying how we are slaves to sin without Him. So then we are not free. ((But we are free?)) But God came and freed “us”. Is it only NOW that “we” really have free-will? To choose either to honor God now, with this understanding that He gave us; or just throw it off, and now utilize this freedom to do greater sins? (( this one seems kinda out there though ))

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If then understanding comes from God, these forums are only good for arguments; but with charity, (only because God commanded it, not because our actions ulimately change things); But then if one spirit reveals these ‘truths’ about God. How can we have more than 1 statement to follow? We can’t argue charitably our way into having someone believe can we? We understand because God allows us to understand? We are patient only because God grants us His patience?
So the ultimate question is, Who works in the spirit of God? (aka, the Holy Spirit); where did these teachings we discuss come from? Who should I learn from? Because I was dead in my sins, but in Jesus Christ, we have life. If there is disention, then where is the full deposit of faith held? Is God like to use trickery and splinter His Body in pieces?

YEa, we search for the truth, which is God found through Jesus Christ.

I suppose one principle is very important: God acts only in Love. (He is Love) Weather it be calamity or mercy. How can we compromise that God is Love with the idea of predestination?

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In the end, in what points do we really disagree? It almost seems like there isn’t much disagreement.

I recall Paul speaking in 1 Corinthians 1:12.
What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, "I follow Cephas 1:12 That is, Peter] "; still another, “I follow Christ.”

We follow different teachers, but are not they all from God?
Are we really in a difference of understanding?
Or are we just using different words and definitions?

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Lastly, are God’s sovereignty and our free-will really such opposites? Quite possibly is there a perfect equilibrium, which some have not yet understood?

 

[Capt_K]

c0achmcguirk:

I entirely understand what you are saying, so let’s keep it civil.

Again, how could one in your position account for Acts 4:27-28?

It says “They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.”

In your view, God didn’t decide anything, he just looked into the future and saw that men would indeed crucify Jesus. But the passage actually tells us that God decided beforehand what should happen, and the men did it. How does your view fit into this passage?

God bless,
c0ach

I am merely observing your consistent behavior - that is civil though you may not like being called on it. And you continue in your obstinacy - you again refused to deal with my statement … Your words show you out “… he just looked into the future…” THERE IS NO FUTURE! You’re not listening so I’m yelling to try to get through.

God’s plan for our salvation is His Will for us. His purpose is to bring us into union with Him. For that He created us. For that we have been given free will - the freedom to choose good or evil, to accept or reject the gifts. We ALL have exercised that free will.

God decreed from eternity and Jesus exercised His free will to cooperate with that ‘decree’ which again is viewed by God from all eternity as is all that He created.