John 6 : 62 & 63 What does this mean?

[rcwitness]

I have company here now for 5he weekend.

By all means, enjoy! We will resume later. peace to you and your company.

 

[Wannano]

I’m trying to strike a cord here. Using their own theology tells me that what they do in Communion, is what they criticize and maybe even accuse us as idolatry.

We venerate images within our worship. This is highly criticized. But that is what is done in the Symbolic Communion of bread and wine.

In our Communion, we are not veneration OR worshipping through the bread and wine. The bread and wine are symbols (and truly) of work and celebration, as gifts, and nurishment and life, as properties that are consumed. However, after the blessing of consecration, they are no longer the substance of bread and wine, but changed, by the Spirit into the flesh and blood that was Incarnate from the Word.

You are striking a cord with me because I answered you in good faith according to my understanding. If you are using my unplanned responses as a platform to blast a whole segment of God’s people that I may not properly represent i feel betrayed.

 

[Techno2000]

I would have preferred you didn’t say that…if you guys don’t like slurs then you shouldn’t give them either.

Sorry, not trying to slur just trying point out the big differences in our understanding of John 6.

 

[Peter_J]

I am not saying it is not real but that to me saying Jesus was literal with those words would mean He was offering cannibalism. Not harping, just thinking out loud.

Well, if we understand “cannibalism” to mean one human being eating all or part of another, then I would say yes the Eucharist fits that definition. But I think it’s kind of a loaded term to apply.

 

[rcwitness]

Well, if we understand “cannibalism” to mean one human being eating all or part of another, then I would say yes the Eucharist fits that definition. But I think it’s kind of a loaded term to apply.

I agree. I don’t try to dodge the fact that it is cannibalism in a way.

 

[rcwitness]

You are striking a cord with me because I answered you in good faith according to my understanding. If you are using my unplanned responses as a platform to blast a whole segment of God’s people that I may not properly represent i feel betrayed.

First, by “striking a cord”, I meant making a connection or relating in your own terms. Hopefully that phrase wasn’t meant as, trying to wound.

Secondly, we can’t ignore the harsh enmity between denominations. We can certainly emphasize common faith, but I see many articles and comments from Evangelicals that Catholics wrongly venerate God through images. So I’m trying to use an example of Communion practice to show that the Symbolic Communion, in my understanding, uses the bread and wine (or juice) as worshiping God through. Obviously I am not implying they always worship God only through the bread and wine, but that in the Lord’s Supper, particularly, the bread and wine symbolizes Christ, who is worshipped.

 

[Wannano]

First, by “striking a cord”, I meant making a connection or relating in your own terms. Hopefully that phrase wasn’t meant as, trying to wound.

Secondly, we can’t ignore the harsh enmity between denominations. We can certainly emphasize common faith, but I see many articles and comments from Evangelicals that Catholics wrongly venerate God through images. So I’m trying to use an example of Communion practice to show that the Symbolic Communion, in my understanding, uses the bread and wine (or juice) as worshiping God through. Obviously I am not implying they always worship God only through the bread and wine, but that in the Lord’s Supper, particularly, the bread and wine symbolizes Christ, who is worshipped.

I felt for a time like I was the victim of a “gotcha” moment. I can see how you as Catholics get tired of people misunderstanding your practice. Really, after being here at caf I have a better idea of veneration versus worship of. I wonder though if sometimes even some Catholic people get the difference a little mixed up but for a non-Catholic to make a judgement against all Catholics is just as wrong as for Catholics to make sarcastic judgements against all things Protestant.

We can’t ignore the harsh enmity as you say but if we (me included!) love to hate the other we are indicating we are liars in that we don’t have Christ at all.

Am I understanding correctly from your post previous to this post that the Bread and Wine are symbols as well until the Words of Consecration are spoken? That being the case would make our Communion the same to that point?

Glad to hear back from you!

 

[rcwitness]

We can’t ignore the harsh enmity as you say but if we (me included!) love to hate the other we are indicating we are liars in that we don’t have Christ at all.

That’s probably true.

Am I understanding correctly from your post previous to this post that the Bread and Wine are symbols as well until the Words of Consecration are spoken? That being the case would make our Communion the same to that point?

Well yes. I believe the Church Fathers have expressed the symbolism of bread and wine. They contain symbolism and part of why they are used as the meal of His body and blood.

Glad to hear back from you!

 

[angeltime]

First, by “striking a cord”, I meant making a connection or relating in your own terms. Hopefully that phrase wasn’t meant as, trying to wound.

Secondly, we can’t ignore the harsh enmity between denominations. We can certainly emphasize common faith, but I see many articles and comments from Evangelicals that Catholics wrongly venerate God through images. So I’m trying to use an example of Communion practice to show that the Symbolic Communion, in my understanding, uses the bread and wine (or juice) as worshiping God through. Obviously I am not implying they always worship God only through the bread and wine, but that in the Lord’s Supper, particularly, the bread and wine symbolizes Christ, who is worshipped.

Pax et Bonum! I believe the Bread and Wine is not a “symbol” - period. It is bread and wine which after being consecrated, becomes the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ; the True Presence. angeltime[BIBLEDRB][/BIBLEDRB]

 

[rcwitness]

Pax et Bonum! I believe the Bread and Wine is not a “symbol” - period. It is bread and wine which after being consecrated, becomes the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ; the True Presence. angeltime[BIBLEDRB][/BIBLEDRB]

Bread and wine have symbolic meaning. Bread nourishes and sustains life, and wine is used for celebrations.

Bread and wine were the peace offerings in the blessing of Abraham:

Genesis 14
After his return from the defeat of Ched-or-lao′mer and the kings who were with him, the king of Sodom went out to meet him at the Valley of Shaveh (that is, the King’s Valley).18And Melchiz′edek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was priest of God Most High.19And he blessed him and said,

“Blessed be Abram by God Most High,
***maker of heaven and earth;
20and blessed be God Most High,
****who has delivered your enemies into your hand!”

 

[angeltime]

Bread and wine have symbolic meaning. Bread nourishes and sustains life, and wine is used for celebrations.

Bread and wine were the peace offerings in the blessing of Abraham:

Genesis 14
After his return from the defeat of Ched-or-lao′mer and the kings who were with him, the king of Sodom went out to meet him at the Valley of Shaveh (that is, the King’s Valley).18And Melchiz′edek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was priest of God Most High.19And he blessed him and said,

“Blessed be Abram by God Most High,
***maker of heaven and earth;
20and blessed be God Most High,
****who has delivered your enemies into your hand!”

Pax et Bonum! Just to clarify that bread IS the sustenance, and wine IS for celebrations or as Jesus said, “to cheer the heart” - or heal. When it is consecrated, it becomes the Body and Blood of Jesus; True Presence. In other words, the bread and wine does not “stand in place of” because it IS…a red rose is symbolic of love, but is not love itself. angeltime[BIBLEDRB][/BIBLEDRB]

 

[Randy_Carson]

I am interested in knowing what others interpret these verses to mean…

John 6:63: THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE

Many people believe that John 6:63 proves that Jesus was speaking metaphorically about His body and blood in the sixth chapter of John. Does that verse actually support this position? Let’s take a closer look. In verse 63, Jesus said:

“The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken are spirit and they are life.” (John 6:63)

Many who deny the real presence of Christ is the Eucharist take this verse to mean that Jesus was not speaking literally when he commanded us to eat his body and drink his blood. However, this would be a misunderstanding of what Jesus meant when he said, “the flesh counts for nothing.”

First, notice that whenever Jesus referred to his own body and blood, he said “my flesh” or “the flesh of the Son of Man”. Here are the examples:

“This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.” (John 6:51)

"Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.” (John 6:53-56)

At this point, the narrative explains that the disciples were on the verge of revolt over this teaching. Jesus tells them that they cannot understand this teaching with their natural minds. Here is the verse in context: “On hearing it, many of his disciples said, ‘This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?’ Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, ‘Does this offend you? What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.’” (John 6:60-63)

In John 6:63, Jesus uses the phrase “the flesh” instead of “my flesh” or “the flesh of the Son of Man” because he is not talking about his own body; he is referring to man’s natural, unenlightened rational intellect.

Jesus tells the grumbling Jews (who can’t understand how he would give them his flesh to eat) that they cannot grasp it with their natural minds because it is a mystery beyond the ability of “the flesh” to understand. This is the same manner of speaking used by Paul in 1 Corinthians 2 & 3 when he is distinguishing between fleshly or carnal Christians and those who are discern the things of God with their spirits.

Second, it might be worth noting the obvious fact that Jesus cannot be saying that HIS own flesh “counts for nothing”; otherwise, his death upon the cross would be meaningless. Instead, we know that his own body, his flesh, was broken and pierced for our sake; no Christian would deny that. Therefore, since HIS flesh does count for something, he must have been referring to “flesh” other than his own in v. 63.

Thus, the one verse that many non-Catholics cling to as an argument against the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist does not mean what they falsely claim it means. Ironically, their “proof text” points out precisely why they cannot understand the Eucharist: they are using their own flesh or human reasoning instead of their spirits to discern the things of God. Unfortunately, their flesh “counts for nothing”.

 

[angeltime]

Pax! I have heard many times that the Mass is a spiritual banquet. So, this tells us first off that we are entering the spiritual realm when at Mass or approaching the altar to receive the Body and Blood of our Jesus. It seems to me that when Jesus said, the flesh is nothing, He meant that the earthly flesh is nothing in terms of what we are receiving for communion, the flesh is nothing in terms of not satisfying us on the earthly plane. Yes, he gave up His flesh and blood for us on the Cross, however when it becomes His flesh and blood “in the spiritual realm” after consecration, then it seems easier to comprehend. “Whatever is bound on earth is bound in Heaven” - so the new and everlasting covenant made it possible for us to eat of His body; drink of His blood. God bless, angeltime

 

[rcwitness]

Pax et Bonum! Just to clarify that bread IS the sustenance, and wine IS for celebrations or as Jesus said, “to cheer the heart” - or heal. When it is consecrated, it becomes the Body and Blood of Jesus; True Presence. In other words, the bread and wine does not “stand in place of” because it IS…a red rose is symbolic of love, but is not love itself. angeltime[BIBLEDRB][/BIBLEDRB]

Yes, bread is a sustenance for the body. Jesus’ body is not bread. Bread is the symbol for His body. The valid consecration changes ordinary bread into the body of Christ.

 

[Techno2000]

John 6:63: THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE

“The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken are spirit and they are life.” (John 6:63)

At this point, the narrative explains that the disciples were on the verge of revolt over this teaching. Jesus tells them that they cannot understand this teaching with their natural minds. Here is the verse in context: “On hearing it, many of his disciples said, ‘This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?’ Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, ‘Does this offend you? What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.’” (John 6:60-63)

In John 6:63, Jesus uses the phrase “the flesh” instead of “my flesh” or “the flesh of the Son of Man” because he is not talking about his own body; he is referring to** man’s natural, unenlightened rational intellect.
**
Jesus tells the grumbling Jews (who can’t understand how he would give them his flesh to eat) that they cannot grasp it with their natural minds because it is a mystery beyond the ability of “the flesh” to understand. This is the same manner of speaking used by Paul in 1 Corinthians 2 & 3 when he is distinguishing between fleshly or carnal Christians and those who are discern the things of God with their spirits.

Second, it might be worth noting the obvious fact that Jesus cannot be saying that HIS own flesh “counts for nothing”; otherwise, his death upon the cross would be meaningless. Instead, we know that his own body, his flesh, was broken and pierced for our sake; no Christian would deny that. Therefore, since HIS flesh does count for something, he must have been referring to “flesh” other than his own in v. 63.

Thus, the one verse that many non-Catholics cling to as an argument against the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist does not mean what they falsely claim it means. Ironically, their “proof text” points out precisely why** they cannot understand the Eucharist: they are using their own flesh or human reasoning** instead of their spirits to discern the things of God. Unfortunately, their flesh “counts for nothing”.

Right, it’s a Supernatural phenomenon that the flesh (human reason) cant understand .

 

[angeltime]

Pax et Bonum! Finally, words that seem to be on the same page - haha!! Not making light of it, just that I can’t see Jesus speaking in realms over our heads to explain or teach. He did say, these things would be kept from the learned, and given to the simple…so that’s why I don’t always agree with a lot of terminology or education even though I enjoy getting deep into the topics…we have to leave something up to the Holy Spirit to give us as a gift…then it is real! angeltime

 

[Techno2000]

Pax! I have heard many times that the Mass is a spiritual banquet. So, this tells us first off that we are entering the spiritual realm when at Mass or approaching the altar to receive the Body and Blood of our Jesus. It seems to me that when Jesus said, the flesh is nothing, He meant that the earthly flesh is nothing in terms of what we are receiving for communion,** the flesh is nothing **in terms of not satisfying us on the earthly plane. Yes, he gave up His flesh and blood for us on the Cross, however when it becomes His flesh and blood “in the spiritual realm” after consecration, then it seems easier to comprehend. “Whatever is bound on earth is bound in Heaven” - so the new and everlasting covenant made it possible for us to eat of His body; drink of His blood. God bless, angeltime

The flesh is nothing… is about people’s inability to understand what he’s talking about because Jesus comes from the spirit world, which man (the flesh) cannot grasp.

 

[rcwitness]

The flesh is nothing… is about people’s inability to understand what he’s talking about because Jesus comes from the spirit world, which man (the flesh) cannot grasp.

Matthew 16
And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.

 

[Techno2000]

Pax et Bonum! Finally, words that seem to be on the same page - haha!! Not making light of it, just that I can’t see Jesus speaking in realms over our heads to explain or teach. He did say, these things would be kept from the learned, and given to the simple…so that’s why I don’t always agree with a lot of terminology or education even though I enjoy getting deep into the topics…we have to leave something up to the Holy Spirit to give us as a gift…then it is real! angeltime

For what the flesh wants is opposed to the Spirit, and what the Spirit wants is opposed to the flesh. They are opposed to each other, and so you do not do what you want to do.

The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s Law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God.

these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For what human being knows what is truly human except the human spirit that is within? So also no one comprehends what is truly God’s except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit that is from God, so that we may understand the gifts bestowed on us by God. And we speak of these things in words not taught by **human wisdom **but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual things to those who are spiritual

 

[Techno2000]

Weymouth New Testament
It is the spirit which gives Life. The flesh confers no benefit whatever. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and are Life.

English Standard Version
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

Berean Study Bible
The Spirit gives life;** the flesh profits nothing**. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

New International Version
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you–they are full of the Spirit and life.

New Living Translation
The Spirit alone gives eternal life.** Human effort accomplishes nothing**. And the very words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

English Standard Version
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

NET Bible
The Spirit is the one who gives life; **human nature is of no help! **The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

King James 2000 Bible
It is the spirit that gives life;** the flesh profits nothing**: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Expanded Bible (EXB)
It is the Spirit that gives life. The flesh ·doesn’t give life [Lis useless; counts for nothing]. The words I told you ·are spirit, and they give life [or are from the Spirit who gives life].

Contemporary English Version (CEV)
The Spirit is the one who gives life!** Human strength can do nothing.** The words that I have spoken to you are from that life-giving Spirit.

GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)
Life is spiritual. Your physical existence doesn’t contribute to that life. The words that I have spoken to you are spiritual. They are
life.

Mounce Reverse-Interlinear New Testament (MOUNCE)
It is the Spirit who gives life;** the flesh is useless.** The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

Good News Translation (GNT)
What gives life is God’s Spirit;** human power is of no use at all**. The words I have spoken to you bring God’s life-giving Spirit.