John Kasich Thread

[TCEL]

What do you think are the factors in our culture that creates rapists?

 

[vz71]

It is not victim blaming to advise people how to avoid becoming a victim.

 

[Theo520]

News Flash!
We’ve already told men not to rape, it’s even a felony crime.

Yesterday, during an interview with CNN’s Dana Bash, Kasich was confused about why his comments last week were problematic:

There are about two dozen different reasons that Kasich’s “advice” is undiluted garbage, but perhaps the most obvious is this: Telling women how to avoid rape, instead of telling men not to rape, is straight-up rape culture garbage.

Be careful, Kasich says. As if “carelessness” is why women get raped.

 

[TCEL]

We’ve already told men not to rape, it’s even a felony crime.

That’s what I was thinking…

 

[JimG]

News Flash!
We’ve already told men not to rape, it’s even a felony crime.

It is a felony crime–if the police are involved, as they ought to be. On college campuses, however, any sexual assault is often prosecuted by college administrative tribunals, with power to enforce sanctions. The trouble with these tribunals is that often they lack any semblance of due process rights for the accused. An accused who is turned over to the cops has legal rights of due process. Not so in university tribunals.
“Under tremendous pressure from the federal government, colleges and universities routinely use their internal disciplinary processes to adjudicate claims of sexual assault, often with shockingly little regard for the due process rights of students who stand accused of one of society’s most heinous offenses. The result is students whose lives are dramatically altered by patently unfair proceedings.”

heritage.org/research/reports/2015/10/campus-judiciaries-on-trial-an-update-from-the-courts

 

[Joe_5859]

There are about two dozen different reasons that Kasich’s “advice” is undiluted garbage, but perhaps the most obvious is this: Telling women how to avoid rape, instead of telling men not to rape, is straight-up rape culture garbage.

Why can we not do both?

I’m sincerely confused on exactly what you expect someone like Kasich to tell a young woman (or his own daughters, as he referenced) who is asking for advice in this type of situation. Should he say, “You just keep doing whatever it is you want to do and we’ll keep making sternly worded announcements to potential rapists so that you won’t ever have to worry about this happening to you”?

I am all for not blaming the victim. And I’m all for preventing these types of things from ever happening. But that doesn’t mean there aren’t concrete things that women can do to reduce their risk. There are. And they are mostly common sense.

It’s good that you are so passionate about women’s safety. But there’s no need to cut off our nose to spite our face. We can pursue a culture of respect for women while simultaneously giving them advice to reduce risk. Otherwise, what are we left with? Telling them there is nothing they can do? Making empty promises as if we can eliminate the risk for them? Refusing to allow anyone to even mention something a woman can proactively do to reduce her risk of being assaulted? None of those seem like particularly pro-woman options to me.

If you have some solutions to these questions, I’d very much like to hear them. I sincerely want to understand where you are coming from.

 

[Trident_H]

Yesterday, during an interview with CNN’s Dana Bash, Kasich was confused about why his comments last week were problematic:

There are about two dozen different reasons that Kasich’s “advice” is undiluted garbage, but perhaps the most obvious is this: Telling women how to avoid rape, instead of telling men not to rape, is straight-up rape culture garbage.

Be careful, Kasich says. As if “carelessness” is why women get raped.

Here’s the thing about rapists: They rape people. They rape people who are strong and people who are weak, people who are knowledgeable and people who are ignorant, people who fight back and people who submit just to get it over with, people who are virgins and people who are not, who rich and people who are poor, people who are tall and people who are short, people who are fat and people who are thin, people who are conscious and people who are incapacitated, people of every race and shape and size and ability and circumstance.

The only thing that the victim of every rapist shares in common is the bad luck of being in the presence of a rapist.

Rapists are determined to rape. And if this woman doesn’t go to a party “where there’s a lot of alcohol” and (more importantly) a rapist, another woman would. It doesn’t make that woman any more responsible for being raped. And if no women at all went to that party, that rapist would find another way to obtain his victims.

Victim-blaming is based on the damnably notion that people (and women in particular) allow themselves to be victimized by virtue of carelessness or stupidity, and we need to be warned and educated and lectured and hectored and cajoled and shamed into never being victims.

No.

Our culture creates rapists—and they create victims. No one has ever been a victim of rape, until they had the horrendous luck of being in the presence of a rapist.

Enough victim blaming. Enough.

That Kasich doesn’t agree we’ve had quite enough of this reprehensible rhetoric already is just another one of many reasons that no one should cast another vote for him ever again.

I know you’re disappointed most of us saw what Kasich was trying to say when you didn’t. I get that. But you’ve gone back to the beginning instead of answering any of the things pointed at you already.

If someone asks you:

Q “How do I avoid getting killed in a car crash?”

Do you answer:

A “First you put on your seat belt. Then you make sure you drive within the limit. Then you always check your mirrors. Make sure you don’t text while driving. Shoulder check! Watch other drivers carefully. Read the signs. Know where you’re going before you leave. And NO ALCOHOL while driving because it affects your judgment.”

Or do you answer:

B “First you make sure every other driver in the entire area knows they should obey all the laws. Make sure you tell them that. And make sure the police know you’re not gonna take any **** from anyone who breaks the law. Because they have no right to put your life in danger by thinking only of themselves.”

Can you see the difference between these and a committee sitting down and drawing out a plan to increase driver safety through new laws?

They aren’t the same thing.

 

[Just_Lurking]

link

During an appearance on CNN’s State of the Union on Sunday, the Ohio governor dismissed the outcry over anti-LGBTQ laws springing up in states across the country — North Carolina, Mississippi, Tennessee — saying those who face discrimination should take it in stride.

“If you feel as though somebody is doing something wrong against you, can you just, for a second, get over it, you know, because this thing will settle down,” Kasich said.

Kasich argued government must balance the interests of religious people who oppose LGBTQ rights and those people who face discrimination.

“I just wish that everybody would just take a breath and calm down, because, you see, trying to figure out how to legislate that balance is complicated, and you keep doing do-overs, because nobody gets it right,” he said. “So if we would just kind of calm down here, I think things would settle down. And what I like to say is, ‘Just relax.’”

Despite billing himself as the moderate in the GOP presidential field, Kasich is no friend to the LGBTQ communities. In February, he said anti-LGBTQ discrimination is bad for businesses only to backtrack on his remark a week later. And though he doesn’t want to repeal marriage equality, he opposes it.

At least Kasich didn’t use the word “uppity”.

 

[Theo520]

I know you’re disappointed most of us saw what Kasich was trying to say when you didn’t. I get that. But you’ve gone back to the beginning instead of answering any of the things pointed at you already.

If someone asks you:

Q “How do I avoid getting killed in a car crash?”

Do you answer:

A “First you put on your seat belt. Then you make sure you drive within the limit. Then you always check your mirrors. Make sure you don’t text while driving. Shoulder check! Watch other drivers carefully. Read the signs. Know where you’re going before you leave. And NO ALCOHOL while driving because it affects your judgment.”

Or do you answer:

B “First you make sure every other driver in the entire area knows they should obey all the laws. Make sure you tell them that. And make sure the police know you’re not gonna take any **** from anyone who breaks the law. Because they have no right to put your life in danger by thinking only of themselves.”

Can you see the difference between these and a committee sitting down and drawing out a plan to increase driver safety through new laws?

They aren’t the same thing.

great analogy

 

[starshiptrooper]

Telling women how to avoid rape, instead of telling men not to rape, is straight-up rape culture garbage.

Time to play one of my favorite games. It is called, “Is it misandristic?” The rules are simple. You take a statement by a Feminist about men and substitute a different demographic for men. An alternative is to replace both the demographic and the undesirable action with another demographic and another undesirable action. Then we look at the hypothetical statements. Do they sound bigoted and hateful? If yes, then the original statement was as well.

Today our contestant is Siegehammer. Her statement is above in the bold quote. We shall change the demographic first. “Telling women how to avoid rape, instead of telling blacks not to rape, is straight-up rape culture garbage.”

Wow, that sounds like something a member of the KKK would say. Now, let us change both the demographic and the undesirable action.

“Telling Americans how to avoid IED attacks, instead of telling Muslims not to terrorize, is straight-up terrorist culture garbage.”

Wow, that sounds Islamophobic. Congratulations, Siegehammer! Your statement is extremely misandristic. Hopefully this is the only time you will be participating in this game.

 

[JimG]

Which reminded me of this:

“There are currently no transgender employees in the building I work in (that I know of), but as a policy our company will allow any such individuals to use whatever restroom they best identify with. One of the presenters said something to the effect of “Just deal with it. You’ll have your own private stall anyway”. I thought, “Why can’t the transgender individual just deal with it (“it” being the restroom that best matches their body)? They’ll have their own private stall anyway.””

2catholicmen.blogspot.com/2016/04/of-restrooms-and-reason.html

 

[Just_Lurking]

“Telling Americans how to avoid IED attacks, instead of telling Muslims not to terrorize, is straight-up terrorist culture garbage.”

I think a closer analogy would be the following: Suppose Hilary Clinton told a crowd that the best way for Christians to avoid Islamic violence would be to just stay out of Muslim “no go” zones like Dearborn, Michigan. If that were to happen, I’m sure the GOP would be on Hilary’s case just as much as the liberals are on Kasich’s case now.

Analogy: Christians = women, Muslims = men, no go zones = parties with alcohol.

 

[adowcday]

Unfortunately, discrimination against transgender people will not just blow over. African Americans still suffer from discrimination 150 years after slavery was abolished. Prejudice and bigotry are remarkably durable. I’m sure that these issues are very inconvenient for a Republican presidential candidate, but as someone who wants to be president of all Americans, he needs to come up with a better response.

 

[starshiptrooper]

I think a closer analogy would be the following: Suppose Hilary Clinton told a crowd that the best way for Christians to avoid Islamic violence would be to just stay out of Muslim “no go” zones like Dearborn, Michigan. If that were to happen, I’m sure the GOP would be on Hilary’s case just as much as the liberals are on Kasich’s case now.

Analogy: Christians = women, Muslims = men, no go zones = parties with alcohol.

Clinton did say something similar. She did blame Benghazi on a video after all. None of your statement however, comes close to addressing the point I made. Siegehammer’s misandristic statement is misandristic.

 

[styrgwillidar]

We do tell men in the US not to rape. We tell them all the time. Our whole culture emphasizes and repeats over and over again that rape is one of the most despicable crimes that can be committed. Every decent man knows already. Just like they know murder is wrong, pedophilia is wrong etc. etc. etc. The vast majority of men aren’t rapists— the ones who are already know its wrong and, they don’t care.

There is one basic rule to safety:

Don’t do anything stupid.

Everything else about safety flows from that basic rule.
The corollary is- Alcohol makes you stupid. That’s what we mean by ‘lowers inhibitions’, it silences that voice telling you that what you’re about to do is stupid. Ever hear the terms, ‘False Courage’ or ‘Liquid Courage’? Its why some folks drink socially, to lower their inhibitions to approach someone to talk, or to ask them to dance, or accept a request to dance. Some folks drink to deliberately lower their inhibitions to the point they’ll do thing they can’t get themselves to do sober. Young folks, inexperienced with alcohol don’t truly understand how dangerous it can be, not just because someone else evil might take advantage of them. But they themselves may willingly choose to do something they’ll regret. Something other folks have no idea is atypical for them. They only see someone who is an apparent willing participant in an activity. I am not talking the evil of someone blacked out, or seriously incapacitated being victimized, but the far more insidious issue of folks doing things they’ll regret simply because they don’t understand ‘lowers inhibitions’ after just a couple of drinks for the inexperienced. They won’t be passed out, they won’t be stumbling, they won’t be slurring but they will be more vulnerable to making decisions they’ll regret. Especially if they’re amongst a bunch of strangers who aren’t familiar with their sober morals and convictions.

Every young adult needs to understand what alcohol can do. How it affects their judgment, and to take responsibility for their decision to drink. Not just young women, but young men as well. Many serial killers of young men utilized alcohol and sometimes drugs to render their victims more vulnerable. John Wayne Gacy, Jeffrey Dahlmer, the team of Dean Corll and Elmer Wayne Henley. Ugly, horrible stuff if you have the stomach to read it. I suggest the book ‘Mindhunter’ by the FBI profiler John Douglas as a place to start- my college age daughters read it.

You see, folks pointing out the dangers of alcohol as well as the reality that there are evil people in this world who will take advantage of them, who like any predator look for the vulnerable (which has nothing to do with the way folks are dressed. Rape for the most part is a crime of opportunity. Wrong place, wrong time combined with vulnerability). Yes these folks are evil and absolutely to blame for their evil acts. But knowing that won’t undo the damage the victim suffers.

Hey, if you want to leave the doors and windows wide open to your house when you’re gone, its not your fault if evil folks rob you. The guilt is totally on them, they’re the ones choosing to commit evil, but you will have to deal with the consequences of having been victimized.

 

[Kamaduck]

Replies to this thread are perfect examples of the perpetuation of rape culture. With one in six women being sexually assaulted in their lives, never mind the fact that many women are sexually assaulted multiple times in their lives, rape culture is the way in which the constant threat of sexual assault affects women’s daily movements, like attending a party where there’s alcohol.

Rape culture is telling girls and women to be careful about what you wear, how you wear it, how you carry yourself, where you walk, when you walk there, with whom you walk, whom you trust, what you do, where you do it, with whom you do it, what you drink, how much you drink, whether you make eye contact, if you’re alone, if you’re with a stranger, if you’re in a group, if you’re in a group of strangers, if it’s dark, if the area is unfamiliar, if you’re carrying something, how you carry it, what kind of shoes you’re wearing in case you have to run, what kind of purse you carry, what jewelry you wear, what time it is, what street it is, what environment it is, how many people you sleep with, what kind of people you sleep with, who your friends are, to whom you give your number, to always be alert always pay attention always watch your back always be aware of your surroundings and never let your guard down for a moment lest you be sexually assaulted and if you are and didn’t follow all the rules it’s your fault.

Rape culture is tasking victims with the burden of rape prevention. Rape culture is encouraging women to take self-defense as though that is the only solution required to preventing rape. Rape culture is admonishing women to “learn common sense” or “be more responsible” or “be aware of risks” or “avoid these places” or “don’t dress this way,” all the while failing to admonish men to not rape.

Remarks like the ones Kasich made perpetuate rape culture, making him a dangerous individual to have anywhere near the Oval Office.

OK, I think you’re saying that by giving women advice on how to protect themselves, Kasich is placing responsibility for rape on the victim, and saying that if they follow this rule, they definitely won’t be raped. Ergo, he’s blaming rape victims for being raped, because they wouldn’t have been raped if they were following the rules. Do I have that right?

The thing is, I don’t think he’s saying that. You said he did talk about how he’s attempting to fix things on the other end, by punishing sexual assault. On the other hand, if someone wants to personally protect themselves, I don’t think we should tell them that there are no effective precautions, and that they are totally at the mercy of any would-be rapists who happen to pass by.

You’re right that rapists are people, not a force of nature, but that doesn’t mean we can’t take reasonable precautions against them. I don’t think we ought to let fear rule our lives, but alcohol is something that really does make people more vulnerable. If he’d said that women shouldn’t wear revealing clothing or something like that, I’d be offended, but this particular remark seems reasonable.

Anyway. I don’t disagree that we need to teach men not to rape, though I think a lot of that means teaching people about consent, since I kind of think a lot of people don’t have a clear idea of what “rape” is. But I don’t think that means that people shouldn’t be advised to take certain precautions. Again, the alternative is telling them that they’re entirely at the mercy of others, and that seems… not good. I think we can and should advise people to take reasonable precautions, with the understanding that even people who don’t take those precautions do not deserve to be raped or assaulted.

 

[Peter_J]

Replies to this thread are perfect examples of the perpetuation of rape culture.

I don’t want to argue with you about those replies (for a number of reasons, including that I didn’t read a lot of them) but I’ll try to point out to you that none of those replies come from Kasich. (Although to be honest if you don’t already realize that there doesn’t seem much point talking with you.)

 

[signit]

It is a felony crime–if the police are involved, as they ought to be. On college campuses, however, any sexual assault is often prosecuted by college administrative tribunals, with power to enforce sanctions. The trouble with these tribunals is that often they lack any semblance of due process rights for the accused. An accused who is turned over to the cops has legal rights of due process. Not so in university tribunals.
“Under tremendous pressure from the federal government, colleges and universities routinely use their internal disciplinary processes to adjudicate claims of sexual assault, often with shockingly little regard for the due process rights of students who stand accused of one of society’s most heinous offenses. The result is students whose lives are dramatically altered by patently unfair proceedings.”

And, the opposite has happened as well.

Sometimes, when an assault happens, the accused might be a star athlete or similar VIP, and the college looks the other way. There was a whole book about this scandal a while back.

 

[JimG]

And, the opposite has happened as well.

Sometimes, when an assault happens, the accused might be a star athlete or similar VIP, and the college looks the other way. There was a whole book about this scandal a while back.

That can happen. I think it’s less likely to happen now, under the new Title IX rules, with every school having its own disciplinary rules. In fact, the opposite happened at Duke University when a whole team was pretty much indicted and convicted in the press, until it was discovered the story was false.

I recall reading of an incident in which a college student was involved in consensual sex–she invited him–and yet the next day sexual assault charges were filed against him. He was not entitled to an attorney. He was not entitled to discovery, to his own witnesses. It was essentially a star chamber proceeding. His mother was a lawyer, but no lawyers were allowed. Somehow, she managed to get the university to back off, but that’s usually not possible. Perhaps Kasich should have given some advice to both potential victims and potential falsely accused.

 

[7_Sorrows]

I don’t like the plan Kasich and Cruz have put together.
Rush Limbaugh commented Kasich has a Walter Mitty fantasy going on. I think it makes both Cruz and Kasich look weak and desperate.