Jorge Garcia, husband and father of two, deported Jan 15 2018 (MLK Day)

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He crossed the border illegally. He has no legal right to be here. boom. real argument.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
Then you are arguing against hidden motives, only surmised by you. Let it go. It was just a bad straw man argument. You would do better to go on and try to find a real argument for deporting Jorge.
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It wasn’t an argument for why to deport an illegal alien. It was speculation as to motives. He should be deported because we should follow the rule of law. There is no need for any argument unless we need to argue why the rule of law is a good thing. We aren’t at that point yet, are we?
 
If I had wings, I could fly.

I will say, the US immigration system is broken. However, that does not overrule the rule of law and the fact that he should not be here.
 
I am of mixed emotions on this issue. We have no problem breaking up families by putting people in jail when they break the law. However, This man did not initially break the law when he came into the country, whoever brought him in broke the law. Then again, he probably should have left when he reached the age of majority and it was now his decision.

Gray areas are not fun.
 
I’m sorry but I think it must be asked: Are we arguing about legal matters or about ethics or about theology or…?

It seems some members of the forum are trying to argue from those disciplines all at once (not in a very systematic manner).
 
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Actually there is no process that is workable.

It takes five years to get a green card legally and a person who was here illegally, regardless of how young they were when they were brought here, it will probably never happen.

People like Jorge Garcia are caught between a rock and a hard place and Trump is merely making that hard place even harder.

Jim
 
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It cannot be stopped!
 
Can’t we name it “La Nueva España”, instead? “One Catholic nation for all”? I’m partial to a Spanish name, and I don’t think you’d go for “The Kingdom of México
and others
” 😃
 
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That why I like United North American States. We can keep our state flags. Probably move the capital to the geographic center of the continent…
 
Pobreton said:
Being of legal age one couldn’t possible argue against culpability. As a side note, Leaf: even minors can be found guilty of certain crimes (even receiving sentence as adults and depending on the laws of a country even the “concept” of emancipation could play a part).
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The “crime” of staying here after being brought here by his parents is surely not on the same level as the crime of person causing direct harm to people. The law is asking him to do something very few people are asked - to uproot their family or split it up. Being asked to do something so contrary to the interests of everyone involved is surely a mitigating factor.
 
upant said:
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LeafByNiggle:
The order was stayed in 2009. It was an unjust order then and it is an unjust and heartless order now.
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please provide link that the order was stayed.
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The OP article. Just read it.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
The order was stayed in 2009. It was an unjust order then and it is an unjust and heartless order now.
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[Detroit ICE spokesman] Walls said that Garcia was “an unlawfully present citizen of Mexico” who “was ordered removed by an immigration judge in June 2006.”

ICE said in its statement that Garcia "appealed his removal in 2008 to the Board of Immigration Appeals, where it was remanded back to the lower court, which subsequently allowed him to voluntarily depart. After he failed to depart within the timeline of the agreement, he became subject to a final order of removal in 2009.

“ICE exercised prosecutorial discretion on multiple prior occasions in Mr. Garcia-Martinez’s case in 2011, 2012 and 2014. In a further exercise of discretion during the this period, Mr. Garcia-Martinez was never detained.”

“On Jan. 15, Mr. Martinez was removed pursuant to the judge’s removal order.”

His case goes back at least twelve years.
 
It takes time for those who have not entered the country illegally.

For those who are here illegally, the process right now is non-existent and should they go to the country of the parents origin and apply for a visa, because they were here illegally, they have little chance of returning.

Yeah, Trump ended DACA.

Jim
 
Pobreton said:
And, I’ve already voiced my concern about a lack of coherence in what exactly it is we are arguing about (Ethics, Law, Theology, etc.).
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Since I am mostly responding to others in this thread and not initiating things, I try to figure out what they are arguing about and try to respond accordingly. I agree it is sometimes frustrating when people switch the subject (between ethics and law for example) for no good reason. I just try to roll with it.
Furthermore, I presented the perspective of what a man in his situation would face to “scrounge a living” in México and what I think is a far more beneficial attitude: "Why not help boost the Mexican economy, instead?
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Even if we transformed Mexico into an economic paradise, that would not compensate for Jorge having to uproot his family from their established way of life. He and his family are heavily invested in their life here - with the language, school, friends, business. Deportation is a major disruption no matter how good it might be in Mexico. And as a practical matter, it would take much more effort to significantly raise Mexico’s economy. There is no public will to do that. But there is public will to let the dreamers stay here - because it costs us next to nothing and is likely benefiting us.
 
How do we know who a drug dealer is, when people are sneaking across? Last time I heard, drug dealers don’t announce themselves, or self-deport. Nor do run-of-the-mill illegal aliens.
 
exnihilo said:
One problem with this is that the American people have long favored strong enforcement of immigration law. But the state and local governments have largely done all that they can to encourage illegals.
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I think your second statement is good evidence the first is not true. The lower the level of government the more direct is the representation of the will of the people. You surely can’t count the election of Trump as evidence, as he received a minority of votes.
exnihilo said:
. In fact under Reagan there was an amnesty and possibly one other one I’m forgetting.
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George W. Bush tried to get something done, but his own party would not allow it. I have noticed two interesting facts about immigration reform. One, it seems that Republican presidents have been more active. Second, it seems those who live in a society that interacts with more illegal immigrants are more sympathetic toward them, which is why a President from California and Texas have compassion for them and one from New York does not.
 
Loud-living-dogma said:
How do we know who a drug dealer is, when people are sneaking across? Last time I heard, drug dealers don’t announce themselves, or self-deport. Nor do run-of-the-mill illegal aliens.
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The argument was that people should not be treated like drug dealers unless we know they are drug dealers.
 
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