K
Katholikos
Guest
Translation, please.
- Status
K
Karl_Keating
Guest
I can go CD4 one better:
It doesn’t bother me much that there are Protestant women ministers, priests, or bishops. :yawn:
After all, none of them really is ordained, since no Protestant church has valid holy orders. All of them, male or female, are lay people.
H
hank
Guest
Everyone here should check out Paula white if you get the chance. When she gets going I find myself giggling (until she irritates me, which doesnt take too long!
P
Poisson
Guest
An evangelical friend suggested I have a listen to JM. I’m sorry but I couldn’t get past that voice to even listen to the message. Like nails on a chalkboard to me. 
M
maryscarter
Guest
Part I (because this thing said I was too long I have divided it into two parts)
I have listened to about 30 of Joyce Myers published and taped lectures. I was first introduced to her about 15 years ago by a tennis friend who gave me a single tape to examine and added that she speaks plainly and bluntly as I do, but has a good message and would probably like her. I thanked her for the thoughtful gift and promptly tossed it aside. The playing season was over until fall season.
After the summer had passed and the tennis season was about to begin, I remembered the gift of the Joyce Meyers tape and fear of being asked about it since I had not listened to it, I plugged it in during my morning walk…the talk was on procrastination! Wow, it hit me between the eyes. It was like listening to your Mom on a good lesson for living daily life. Laced in the message was scripture and “love Jesus” stuff, but all and all, an uplifting, plain message for living life more fully as a Christian.
I am a cradle Catholic, went to eight years of Parochial school,and made my confirmation about the time Vatican II began to make changes in the mass. We began to have mass in the vernacular, which for us in Alabama was English. I was and am today as Catholic as it comes. However, during the next twenty years plus, the Ca*holic Church in the United States seemed to try to blend into a more protestant type forum in its instruction, CCD classes, RCIA (which was then called “Instruction Class”) and there was no formal Adult Education available. We grew up with the belief and understanding that the Catholic Church was the one true church, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic and since the deposit of faith was in place, we didn’t really need to worry about the details of theology, philosophy, logic…etc, just “love every one” “be kind to the earth” “be kind to your neighbor” “he ain’t heavy…” “plant a tree” “do a play” “sing folks songs from John Foley with the guitar” “Hey man, ain’t we nice folks”…type of evangelization.
There was no internet, no catholic library or book stores, no teaching from the pulpit as we know it today (ie: Scott Hahn, David Currie, Tim Staples, Tim Gray, Stephen Woods…Avery Dulles…etc., no sunday school for adults, no formal catechism (they actually told us to throw away the baltimore catechism which is where I learned most of the truths about God, Jesus, and the meaning of sin and grace!), and on and on in the generation of uncatechised Church! We went to mass, HolyCommunion, Confession, and gave a dollar at the collection and went to lunch with the family.
Meanwhile, the protestants were introducing Jesus and Holy Scriptures in an entertainment style right in line with our culture and what we spoiled Americans have come to expect…quick, emotional, fun, …etc. Being contrary to what was available for the average Catholic in the south, this put many on fire with the “Holy Spirit” and affected the way they lived their daily lives in a huge way. Since they were actually begining to incorporated Jesus into their lives, and it was fun, that seemed the perfect combination especially in a protestant community where you were a little odd if you said you were “Catholic”. The Catholic kids wanted to be protestant because everyone else was and they “knew” Jesus and seemed to be living it! So, if they are not going to hell for being protestant, why not “jump the fence” and worship with them?! And, they did! We lost so many Catholics because they really didn’t realise what it meant to be Catholic and was not Shepherded properly so they strayed.
Back to Joyce Meyers…she released tapes and books on individual “sins”, personal shortcomings, real problems people deal with on a daily basis like Anger, Resentment, Laziness, (actually the seven deadly/capital sins broken down individually) and offered solutions for growing in holiness and growing closer to Jesus. She would speak honestly about leadership, grief, sorrow, broken hearts, broken feelings and pain, and give concrete suggestions and hope for a better life based on Jesus and the scriptures all to prepare us for our heavenly reward. In comparison, it would be on the edge of our Catholic beliefs of “Redemptive Suffering”.
I began my second journey of holiness because of Joyce Meyer and I thank God she was there when there was nothing else offered. I didn’t see any Catholics fronting the crusade to save souls for Jesus! I didn’t see any books and tapes being released by Catholics and there was never suggested reading such as the beautiful Encyclicals of John Paul II and Theology of the body as we do today. After about four years of listening to her TV program and books and tapes, I was handed a conversion tape of Scott Hahn…who is he I wondered? This was rocket fuel for me and I am in another Catholic Universe and can’t get enough or get to all the material now available.
I have listened to about 30 of Joyce Myers published and taped lectures. I was first introduced to her about 15 years ago by a tennis friend who gave me a single tape to examine and added that she speaks plainly and bluntly as I do, but has a good message and would probably like her. I thanked her for the thoughtful gift and promptly tossed it aside. The playing season was over until fall season.
After the summer had passed and the tennis season was about to begin, I remembered the gift of the Joyce Meyers tape and fear of being asked about it since I had not listened to it, I plugged it in during my morning walk…the talk was on procrastination! Wow, it hit me between the eyes. It was like listening to your Mom on a good lesson for living daily life. Laced in the message was scripture and “love Jesus” stuff, but all and all, an uplifting, plain message for living life more fully as a Christian.
I am a cradle Catholic, went to eight years of Parochial school,and made my confirmation about the time Vatican II began to make changes in the mass. We began to have mass in the vernacular, which for us in Alabama was English. I was and am today as Catholic as it comes. However, during the next twenty years plus, the Ca*holic Church in the United States seemed to try to blend into a more protestant type forum in its instruction, CCD classes, RCIA (which was then called “Instruction Class”) and there was no formal Adult Education available. We grew up with the belief and understanding that the Catholic Church was the one true church, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic and since the deposit of faith was in place, we didn’t really need to worry about the details of theology, philosophy, logic…etc, just “love every one” “be kind to the earth” “be kind to your neighbor” “he ain’t heavy…” “plant a tree” “do a play” “sing folks songs from John Foley with the guitar” “Hey man, ain’t we nice folks”…type of evangelization.
There was no internet, no catholic library or book stores, no teaching from the pulpit as we know it today (ie: Scott Hahn, David Currie, Tim Staples, Tim Gray, Stephen Woods…Avery Dulles…etc., no sunday school for adults, no formal catechism (they actually told us to throw away the baltimore catechism which is where I learned most of the truths about God, Jesus, and the meaning of sin and grace!), and on and on in the generation of uncatechised Church! We went to mass, HolyCommunion, Confession, and gave a dollar at the collection and went to lunch with the family.
Meanwhile, the protestants were introducing Jesus and Holy Scriptures in an entertainment style right in line with our culture and what we spoiled Americans have come to expect…quick, emotional, fun, …etc. Being contrary to what was available for the average Catholic in the south, this put many on fire with the “Holy Spirit” and affected the way they lived their daily lives in a huge way. Since they were actually begining to incorporated Jesus into their lives, and it was fun, that seemed the perfect combination especially in a protestant community where you were a little odd if you said you were “Catholic”. The Catholic kids wanted to be protestant because everyone else was and they “knew” Jesus and seemed to be living it! So, if they are not going to hell for being protestant, why not “jump the fence” and worship with them?! And, they did! We lost so many Catholics because they really didn’t realise what it meant to be Catholic and was not Shepherded properly so they strayed.
Back to Joyce Meyers…she released tapes and books on individual “sins”, personal shortcomings, real problems people deal with on a daily basis like Anger, Resentment, Laziness, (actually the seven deadly/capital sins broken down individually) and offered solutions for growing in holiness and growing closer to Jesus. She would speak honestly about leadership, grief, sorrow, broken hearts, broken feelings and pain, and give concrete suggestions and hope for a better life based on Jesus and the scriptures all to prepare us for our heavenly reward. In comparison, it would be on the edge of our Catholic beliefs of “Redemptive Suffering”.
I began my second journey of holiness because of Joyce Meyer and I thank God she was there when there was nothing else offered. I didn’t see any Catholics fronting the crusade to save souls for Jesus! I didn’t see any books and tapes being released by Catholics and there was never suggested reading such as the beautiful Encyclicals of John Paul II and Theology of the body as we do today. After about four years of listening to her TV program and books and tapes, I was handed a conversion tape of Scott Hahn…who is he I wondered? This was rocket fuel for me and I am in another Catholic Universe and can’t get enough or get to all the material now available.
M
maryscarter
Guest
Part II (sorry, I got carried away but I think it is important to look at the big picture on this Joyce Meyer thing)
But, here’s the deal, Joyce Meyer is not evil, and has great messages for daily living a Christian life and she is not the enemy! I went to Atlanta. Georgia to see her in person and drug my Catholic sister and two cousins. I will not go back because I do not share her beliefs, and I don’t talk in tongues (wow, what was that about) but I do admire a plain sinner who has taken her abusive childhood and overwhelming pain and turned it over to God for good. Isn’t that the “curse to bless” thing us Catholic know and love from the time of Adam to redemptive suffering today?
Let me challenge you, don’t take shots at her, take her place and show her how to do it right!
We have been on the right track in the last 10 years and had a great “booster shot” with the abundant graces bestowed on the Church during the Great Jubilee year 2000. We are now beginning to “get it” about the whole Laity role that was clearly spelled out at Vatican II. So, do something, say something, pray, and let’s have that “spring time” in the Church that will refresh us all as we hold hand on this scary path of life!
Caholic in Alabama
But, here’s the deal, Joyce Meyer is not evil, and has great messages for daily living a Christian life and she is not the enemy! I went to Atlanta. Georgia to see her in person and drug my Catholic sister and two cousins. I will not go back because I do not share her beliefs, and I don’t talk in tongues (wow, what was that about) but I do admire a plain sinner who has taken her abusive childhood and overwhelming pain and turned it over to God for good. Isn’t that the “curse to bless” thing us Catholic know and love from the time of Adam to redemptive suffering today?
Let me challenge you, don’t take shots at her, take her place and show her how to do it right!
We have been on the right track in the last 10 years and had a great “booster shot” with the abundant graces bestowed on the Church during the Great Jubilee year 2000. We are now beginning to “get it” about the whole Laity role that was clearly spelled out at Vatican II. So, do something, say something, pray, and let’s have that “spring time” in the Church that will refresh us all as we hold hand on this scary path of life!
Caholic in Alabama
X
Xenon-135
Guest
You asked for translation. It is simple, true, and sometimes embarassing.
I have little intrinsic sophistry. It has been mine to accept the Macceabean effort and hammer the faith wherever I can.
This is real simple. In my apologetic efforts, I try to remain calm and cool. This is true whether it be a encounter with family or friend, woman or man, non-Catholic or Catholic.
There are sometimes, when the argument gets above the kindling point, that I care rather to go for broke than to concede. Merely, I would rather fight and riot than to have to “further explain” my position or refute someone elses crafty cleverness.
Save your statements about seeking conciling and/or medication. When the passion burns, I will only let it just burn me out rather than to sit in some sedated state and fade away.
The problem is obvious. All the rage and the fire that I spew is not merely directed at the issue of contention. So, just like the heat from an acetylene torch, it spreads and heats up the rest of the work. So too, does the damage I inflict when I resort to “ALL OUT” measures to drive home my point.
St. Francios de Sales advocated something much different.
The great concept of charity. That which I can only pray to have more of. The charity that led Jesus to the cross.
Its so easy, and yet for me, almost an intrepid task; To love my adversary or even my opponent more than I despise thier position. I need charity and love in my wittness. This is what the summary of the translation is. And the greatest of these, of course, is love.
I have little intrinsic sophistry. It has been mine to accept the Macceabean effort and hammer the faith wherever I can.
This is real simple. In my apologetic efforts, I try to remain calm and cool. This is true whether it be a encounter with family or friend, woman or man, non-Catholic or Catholic.
There are sometimes, when the argument gets above the kindling point, that I care rather to go for broke than to concede. Merely, I would rather fight and riot than to have to “further explain” my position or refute someone elses crafty cleverness.
Save your statements about seeking conciling and/or medication. When the passion burns, I will only let it just burn me out rather than to sit in some sedated state and fade away.
The problem is obvious. All the rage and the fire that I spew is not merely directed at the issue of contention. So, just like the heat from an acetylene torch, it spreads and heats up the rest of the work. So too, does the damage I inflict when I resort to “ALL OUT” measures to drive home my point.
St. Francios de Sales advocated something much different.
The great concept of charity. That which I can only pray to have more of. The charity that led Jesus to the cross.
Its so easy, and yet for me, almost an intrepid task; To love my adversary or even my opponent more than I despise thier position. I need charity and love in my wittness. This is what the summary of the translation is. And the greatest of these, of course, is love.
S
space_ghost
Guest
i have watched some of joyce and my wife thinks she’s great… (my wife is baptist)… i think ms meyer’s ministry is not a negative thing… if i have an issue with her, it’s that she will say something and repeat it 15 different ways, but i think all and all she means well… needs some formal theological edu… nice lady,
…
…
M
Malachi4U
Guest
Gods peace be with you Theophilus,
Xenon,
The TBN has and is changing. Last year I watched it regularly and enjoyed it. Now I have taken it out of my Satellite TV menu so it doesn’t even show up on my favorites list so I don’t waste my time looking for it. What changed my mind?
-
Code:
Most all the ‘acts/stage shows’ they put on from the various protestant sects look like Broadway stage shows and not preaching from God. Many sects are based on ‘Bible alone’, ‘faith alone’ and other erroneous theology uninspired by Jesus Christ our personal Lord and Savior. In order to keep lost sheep lost :whistle: – but still sheep of God non-the-less, just separated from His flock and His ‘body’ – and to keep the sheep from truly ‘seeing’ scripture, they must put on major productions to motivate and keep the sheep entertained. Without this weekly adrenaline rush the sheep might come off their high and actually ‘see’ Scripture. :sleep: Look at the military and the regular motivational speeches they give (and I gave too) in order to get sane men do what only insane men would do, that is, charge a machine gun nest or some other stupid act that will get one face to face to Jesus and His future salvation sooner then later. Why do so many sects have stages up front instead of alters to God? Answer, preaching is not enough so they must put on a stage show with dancing, yelling, screaming, musicals, weeping, etc. By the way, this type of stage show is effective at getting sheep motivated and believing a certain way inspired or not. -
Code:
TBN now allows on preachers that preach ‘subordinationism’! :eek: The network name should be ‘Multiple God Polytheism Broadcasting Network’. Many Southern Baptist preachers now preach this heresy too. Sad sad day we live in. Trinity in the name is a ‘bait and switch’ tactic if you ask me. -
Code:
They carry ‘acts’ like Lakewood Church. I used to enjoy listening to this young preacher inside what looked like a public civic center with a packed audience. (I used to think Catholic Churches were sometimes too big till I saw this one. Its huge.) One day I found out the preacher worked a fiefdom. What is a fiefdom you may ask? It is were the preachers dad starts a family business to give to his preacher son. The church becomes a family business and huge money making opportunity for the family heirs. The best preacher is not necessarily selected, just the family member who inherits the family business. Look at the 700 network, Oral Roberts, etc… I will not go to a church that is a family business because I do not know if the preacher is there for Gods truth or the guarantee of a large pay check. If the Holy Spirit revealed t the preacher that Sola Scripture was errant would he tell the audience and risk a smaller paycheck and less gold jewelry?:yup:
Mal 3:2-3 “2 But who will endure the day of his coming? And who can stand when he appears? For he is like the refiner’s fire, or like the fuller’s lye. 3 He will sit refining and purifying (silver), and he will purify the sons of Levi, Refining them like gold or like silver that they may offer due sacrifice to the LORD.”
S
SPOKENWORD
Guest
Boy are you disillusioned, If He could use a donkey,He sure can use a women.
E
Elizabeth
Guest
Maryscarter: Thankyou so much for your balanced appraisal of Joyce Meyer. Her Ministry does actually give millions to the poor too, in the name of Jesus Christ. I do have my misgivings about elements of Joyce Meyer Ministry and partly because she is a woman, but…
I am so ‘disillusioned’ by the acid and simply horrible remarks of many of the Catholic Christians’ responses to her in this thread. This is not helpful. Like it or not she is your ‘separated’ sister in Christ and simply as another person is a beloved creation of the Lord God, who loves her beyond words and enough to die for. Way too often I hear not love but resounding gongs and clanging cymbals on these pages. It actually hurts to read these things and hurts the wider Church to speak in this way.
It’s one thing to explain calmly and rationally why Joyce Meyer Ministries doesn’t reflect the Catholic Faith and why you believe her Ministry distorts the gospel message but for the most part this thread is mean-minded gossip and tattle-tales. I think of the Pharisee who said “God, I thank you that I am not like other (wo)men.” (Luke 18 v11).
PLEASE brothers and sisters, let’s think before we add fuel to the flames. BUT, if the aim is to scare others away from the Catholic faith and those who share it - keep right on with the self-righteous remarks and may God have mercy on us all for them.
Let us remember the principle of God’s kindness: See Romans 2, 1-4 and 2 Timothy, 24-26.
I am so ‘disillusioned’ by the acid and simply horrible remarks of many of the Catholic Christians’ responses to her in this thread. This is not helpful. Like it or not she is your ‘separated’ sister in Christ and simply as another person is a beloved creation of the Lord God, who loves her beyond words and enough to die for. Way too often I hear not love but resounding gongs and clanging cymbals on these pages. It actually hurts to read these things and hurts the wider Church to speak in this way.
It’s one thing to explain calmly and rationally why Joyce Meyer Ministries doesn’t reflect the Catholic Faith and why you believe her Ministry distorts the gospel message but for the most part this thread is mean-minded gossip and tattle-tales. I think of the Pharisee who said “God, I thank you that I am not like other (wo)men.” (Luke 18 v11).
PLEASE brothers and sisters, let’s think before we add fuel to the flames. BUT, if the aim is to scare others away from the Catholic faith and those who share it - keep right on with the self-righteous remarks and may God have mercy on us all for them.
Let us remember the principle of God’s kindness: See Romans 2, 1-4 and 2 Timothy, 24-26.
S
SPOKENWORD
Guest
Thank God for people like you. You are a spark in Gods light. Boy does the body of Christ need to walk and talk in Love.
X
Xenon-135
Guest
PLEASE brothers and sisters, let’s think before we add fuel to the flames. BUT, if the aim is to scare others away from the Catholic faith and those who share it - keep right on with the self-righteous remarks and may God have mercy on us all for them.
Let us remember the principle of God’s kindness: See Romans 2, 1-4 and 2 Timothy, 24-26.
Gen 38:26A
Judah recognized them and said, "She is more in the right than I am
Let us remember the principle of God’s kindness: See Romans 2, 1-4 and 2 Timothy, 24-26.
Gen 38:26A
Judah recognized them and said, "She is more in the right than I am
E
Elizabeth
Guest
**Xenon-135: ** An expected and all-too-easy comeback. ‘Touche’ smacks of one-upmanship. I’m not in it for the argument Xenon.
I truly hope you don’t misunderstand: I am in the process of becoming Catholic; I just begin to feel wary of aligning myself with the Faith when elements of it show such condemning attitudes toward non-Catholics. Surely this only increases the divide when most hope to draw non-Catholics in to the Faith?
May God help us both and give us all unity.
M
Malachi4U
Guest
Gods peace be with you Theophilus,
Ric,
Did you just call Jesus a ‘False Teacher’???
Jesus taught the Gospel. The Gospel Jesus taught was by spoken word. The Gospel Jesus commanded us to spread was the Gospel of Word of Faith? Jesus never wrote the Bible, commanded it to be written, gave golden plates to King James to copy off perfectly, etc. Jesus taught Tradition, authority, and loyalty to that authority. Jesus never taught ‘Sola Scriptura’. Jesus’ Word is in us not some book that translators rewrite just to fit copyright laws! Do not treat the Bible as a ‘Graven Image’ of God, this is in violation of His cammandments. The Holy Spirit is alive and in us juat as is the Word of God.Just a note, the following verse was referring to the Greek Septuagint and not the Bible. The Catholic Church had not yet finished writing the Bible, organizing it, defining its canon or declaring it inspired and given by God. Perhaps we could use Catholic Tradition to add the New Testament into the meaning of this verse. Sola Scriptura would prohibit us from applying this verse to the NT - would it not - since Scripture is ‘CLOSED’. Sola Scripture found errant once again.
2 Tim 2:14-17 “But you, remain faithful to what you have learned and believed, because you know from whom you learned it, 15 and that from infancy you have known (the) sacred scriptures, which are capable of giving you wisdom for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work.”
I apologize in advance if I ‘self-interpreted’ what you were saying, you’re a good Christian from what I’ve seen of your writings and look forward to our salvation too. If my s’elf-interpretation’ is wrong, then you could correct me just as God gave us the Cathoic Church to be His authority to correct ‘self-interpretation’ of His Gospel when it is wrong.
A prisoner of Christ.
PS, Did I just rush to the defense of a protestant sect TV minister?
Oh no, its back to Scripture study for me today!
X
Xenon-135
Guest
Sorry Elizabeth, I was just trying to say that you spoke quite well. I am a great perpitrator of what you are writing, and it is rather a great battle for me to avoid condemming and acidic speach.
I know that my writing style leaves something to be desired, but my honest effort was not to offend or challenge you in any way, Elizabeth.
Catholicism for me has been a continual process of conversion. The highway to salvation, at least for me, offers no venues where I can put on the cruise control. As much as I detest what I consider the apostacy of the Joyce Meyers Ministries, I must concede to your point of avoiding the promotion of such hateful speach.
I know that my writing style leaves something to be desired, but my honest effort was not to offend or challenge you in any way, Elizabeth.
Catholicism for me has been a continual process of conversion. The highway to salvation, at least for me, offers no venues where I can put on the cruise control. As much as I detest what I consider the apostacy of the Joyce Meyers Ministries, I must concede to your point of avoiding the promotion of such hateful speach.
E
Elizabeth
Guest
Thankyou. Your response has given me peace together with the post before yours where someone was also trying to reach understanding with another This for me is the heart of our lives together on earth; unity and love and I appreciate your humble response. I will pray that we will all find the capacity to speak with love in all circumstances. I know I am a case in point in needing this.
God be with you.
God be with you.
L
La_Chiara
Guest
I am not going to defend eveything that was said on this thread. But I believe Catholics should look critically at evangelists, in particular, and tele-evangelists, specifically, to discern what truly is their motivation. Usually, their motives are several and none serve the Catholic faith. Why are tele-evangelists always asking for money and using that money for their personal lifestyles? Show me a tele-evangelist who preaches the message of St. Frances of Assisi and lives his lifestyle (or Mother Teresa) or similiar, and I will be happy to give them the reverence due a saint. Too often these “preachers” USE Christ and Christianity for their own purposes, and not to preach Christ’s message or for his Church on earth.
M
maryscarter
Guest
You are right on the one hand and yet I would like for you to consider something else. There will always be those whose intentions are less than pure when preaching the Gospel and receiving money for doing so. This is not inherently wrong. But as with all human nature, especially with some success, the sins of pride and greed creep slowly into the scheme of it. It is very hard to seperate the truly gifted preachers from the truly “gifted” preachers. Remember Fulton Sheen? I think he was one of the first TV evangelists. His messages are just as valid today as when they were originally broadcast. There is a wonderful place in this world of technology for TV evangelist but as with everything in life we must seek the truth and beware of wolves in sheeps clothing! At least it is not filth like most of the television programing today.
R
ralphinal
Guest
I have heard this question many times, usually by non-Christians. Why do televangelists seem to be hostile / agressive / violent in their approach, language, stances, etc? Watch most of them, and you see it. Even if their words are calm, the way they carry themselves usually is not. The Catholics on TV seem to be the exception.
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