Judge rules Obamacare unconstitutional, endangering coverage for 20 million

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JonNC said:
It also rings hollow under government coercion.
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Everything the government does is coercion to some extent. That word is just loaded rhetoric. Paying taxes is coercion. Controlling the border, is coercion. Enforcing speed limits is coercion. Yet because of these things no one says that Americans have no freedom. You bandy the words “tyranny” and “freedom” in such a way that deprives them of meaning and definition. There is not discussion in such an environment where rhetoric prevails over thought.
 
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We are a society. And that comes with obligations and such. And from my view the obligation to take care of the least of us is one of those. Call it what you want. There should be no “them other”’ in a single society.
 
I posted this elsewhere on this forum. But it rings true. Talking about coercion…
“How did we go from Mexico paying for the wall to not paying government employees until the American people pay for the wall”?
 
Stephen_C said:
But we as a society (it seems) are just too busy marginalizing and demonizing those who are the least of us.
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This is factually false, and I believe a slander against the most generous people in the history of the world. Our society has spent trillions of dollars on social welfare programs since the Great Society, all in the name of a war on poverty. To claim a people such as Americans are marginalizing and demonizing their fellow Americans is a claim I reject.
 
Stephen_C said:
I posted this elsewhere on this forum. But it rings true. Talking about coercion…
“How did we go from Mexico paying for the wall to not paying government employees until the American people pay for the wall”?
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How about we preserve the integrity of our sovereignty instead of allowing foreign nationals to meddle in our nation and elections.
 
JonNC said:
This is factually false, and I believe a slander against the most generous people in the history of the world.
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This statement is not false because you said “I believe”, just like the statement you think to be slander and false is not false, as it includes the words “it seems”. There is a difference between what can be true or false, and what is opinion. So yes, just a tad.
 
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You are aware that state and local governments can be even harsher than the federal government, aren’t you?
 
You see slander in this? All I see is we as a society has an obligation to care for the least of US.
 
pnewton said:
Everything the government does is coercion to some extent. That word is just loaded rhetoric. Paying taxes is coercion. Controlling the border, is coercion. Enforcing speed limits is coercion.
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It is not loaded rhetoric, but you are right that anything government does has some coercion in it. That’s why the principle of limited government is so central to the governance in our constitutional republic.
pnewton said:
Yet because of these things no one says that Americans have no freedom. You bandy the words “tyranny” and “freedom” in such a way that deprives them of meaning and definition.
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I don’t think I bandy them about without meaning. In fact, I’m rather precise. @Stephen_C seems to express an almost disdain for individual rights, and that reflects a significant body of political thought on the left.

I reject the idea that only government can solve problems, healthcare or otherwise. It’s track record is, in many ways abysmal.
I also reject the implication that unless one believes in government healthcare, one doesn’t care about the poor.
 
So not wanting to spend to build a wall. Which I think is all political. But then wanting to care for the least of our society. Is being hypocritical? Ok.
 
My gosh Jon it seems like it is all or nothing for you. No middle ground at all. If feeling the obligation to help the least of our society is some how a “leftist” idea then so be it. I will not label you. I just think you are wrong.
 
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Stephen_C said:
You see slander in this? All I see is we as a society has an obligation to care for the least of US.
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Source. Scripture tells us we as individuals have an obligation to help the least of His children, not force others to.
The slander is the claim that Americans haven’t. Tens of trillions of dollars have been spent to help America’s poor. Americans care about their neighbors.
 
Well Jon helping the poor is in my opinion just the right thing to do. As to slander? Who did I slander? There are folks in our society that push the them message. To the degree of not being worthy of such help. Right now we have nothing. Just the ACA that has been neutered and smashed against the rocks. This is personal for me Jon. I think I shared awhile back about my son. In short I spend almost 3 years trying to pull him out of addiction. Hitting roadblocks after roadblocks. I felt the full sting of the condemnation from folks in our society. It almost destroyed me on all levels. I got him back.
 
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Stephen_C said:
So not wanting to spend to build a wall. Which I think is all political. But then wanting to care for the least of our society. Is being hypocritical? Ok.
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Last I saw, securing the border is a constitutional responsibility of the general government. The impact of illegal foreign nationals is greatest on black and other minority Americans, creating downward pressure on wages and competition of entry level employment.
That’s not compassion.
The allure of open borders encourages people to to try to make the long trip, leaving them vulnerable to coyotes and drug cartels. Women and girls are sexually assaulted in large numbers, and we’ve recently seen two children die because they weren’t properly cared for on the trip.
That’s not compassion, either.

We need to do everything we can to prevent foreign nationals from entering our country illegally and discourage them from trying in the first place. Then, expand real immigration.
That’s compassion.

 
And yet the money spent for this wall in my opinion is a complete and total waste of money. Period. And how did amnesty creep into this?
 
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Stephen_C said:
Well Jon helping the poor is in my opinion just the right thing to do.
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So do I. I just don’t think forcing others to is the right thing, and after 50 years of government welfare programs an virtually no change in poverty levels, I don’t see the compassion there, either.
Stephen_C said:
As to slander? Who did I slander?
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I didn’t say you. I said a stated claim.
I believe that making a blanket statement that Americans do not care about the poor, want to marginalize them, etc. is a slander against the most generous and compassionate people in history.
I think it is a slander to claim that those who oppose government dictated healthcare do not want to help those in need.
Stephen_C said:
There are folks in our society that push the them message. To the degree of not being worthy of such help. Right now we have nothing. Just the ACA that has been neutered and smashed against the rocks. This is personal for me Jon.
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And I had a nephew who served in the Army, numerous tours in the desert, just to come home and be queued for care by the VA, until he died.

The difference is I held these positions before he died. I knew before then that government care is not compassion, not charity. It isn’t a response to Christ’s call. My nephew’s death merely confirmed it.

So, as soon as those who favor government healthcare stop with the false accusations about those of us who don’t, the better the dialogue will be.
Stephen_C said:
I felt the full sting of the condemnation from folks in our society. It almost destroyed me on all levels. I got him back.
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I won’t get my nephew back.
 
Sorry for your Nephew. I do know the VA is a joke for most. I never had to use the VA but some day I might. We have to do better at all levels. I am just going to leave it at that…
 
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