Justification by Faith vs The Sacrament of Confession

[Linkowski]

This verse slinging has got to stop.

1st off anybody who has a bible can see that there are lots of verses that contradict the explaination given verses above by the poster.

So

there are 2 explainations

1. Either the bible is error filled and contradicts itself

or

1. The previous poster has misinterprted verses without comparing these verses to other scripture.

Just a few examples

Rom 2:5-6 esp. "who [God] will repay everyone accordingle is to his works.

James 2:14-26 “Faith of itself, if it does not have works is dead”

The ten commandments … they are works to be obeyed

Mt 16: 24 “Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me” Taking up a cross means not just believe but act accordingly

So either the bible contradictory or the person previously has misinterprteted the passages they have quoted. You can throw out all the verse with the word faith in it, but that does not answer the verses stated above.

Peace be with you.
I pray that my tone was not condescending, but verse slinging gets people nowhere. It fails to give the argument the total information.

The automatic response is James 2 and other areas…

You cannot separate works and faith…they are inseparable…

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Many will be sent away to hell after Christ says this…

Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Without faith, human works are vain…

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Works are secondary to faith and scripture makes that clear - although works are the inevitable fruit of true saving faith and characterize the elect, those who have been born again.

As far as discipleship is concerned, one must repent and turn from sin to Christ as Lord. Discipleship/Lordship is the result of turning from sin in repentance at the time of the rebirth - when one is born again. This Lordship bond becomes stronger and stronger throughout the life of the believer.

The elect will be saved.

 

[Flying_Bison]

Predestination was a belief rejected by all Christians before Calvin. Either the Church Fathers who knew the Apostles, All ancient biblical scholar, (ex. Jerome in the 400’s) and the historic Church all got it wrong.

Or

Calvin was mistaken and based his beliefs on Personal preference rather than good theology. If Predestination theology was so thorough how is it that they have refused to aknowledge the interpretations of 1500 hundred years of Christians before Calvin, most importantly the Patristic Fathers, who were taught directly from the Apostles.

I will Chose to follow the interpretaion of the Church.
Tim 3:15 Calls the CHURCH the “Pillar and Foudation of truth”

Nowhere in the bible or the Patristic fathers will one find the individual, Calvin, Luther, Joe Smoe, Pat Robertson, you, me, etc. the Pillar and Foundation of Truth

 

[Linkowski]

Predestination was a belief rejected by all Christians before Calvin. Either the Church Fathers who knew the Apostles, All ancient biblical scholar, (ex. Jerome in the 400’s) and the historic Church all got it wrong.

Or

Calvin was mistaken and based his beliefs on Personal preference rather than good theology. If Predestination theology was so thorough how is it that they have refused to aknowledge the interpretations of 1500 hundred years of Christians before Calvin, most importantly the Patristic Fathers, who were taught directly from the Apostles.

I will Chose to follow the interpretaion of the Church.
Tim 3:15 Calls the CHURCH the “Pillar and Foudation of truth”

Nowhere in the bible or the Patristic fathers will one find the individual, Calvin, Luther, Joe Smoe, Pat Robertson, you, me, etc. the Pillar and Foundation of Truth

Predestination is in scripture and is very clear in Romans 9 and throughout scripture. Not sure how you can say that it is not. New thread???

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

Predestination is in scripture and is very clear in Romans 9 and throughout scripture. Not sure how you can say that it is not. New thread???

Perhaps a good topic for a new thread. Predestination as meant in Scripture, the Early Church Fathers, and the Catholic Church throughout the ages is not the same as what Calvin taught.

 

[Linkowski]

Hello,

Perhaps a good topic for a new thread. Predestination as meant in Scripture, the Early Church Fathers, and the Catholic Church throughout the ages is not the same as what Calvin taught.

What a man teaches does not take the place of what Scripture already says. My quest is to see what the Scriptures say.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

What a man teaches does not take the place of what Scripture already says. My quest is to see what the Scriptures say.

Are you referring to Calvin?

 

[Chancellare]

Work out has the idea of working to bring something to completion and has to do with the “sanctification” part of salvation. Being born is an event…Jesus’ miracles were events. Then, once justified and dead to the law…pardoned, salvation continues in sanctification and is finalized in glorification.

The elect will all be saved…they were chosen before the foundation of the world and an elect person cannot lose their salvation. Election/predestination itself teaches that:

Ro 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

It is quite clear your argument on predestination rests on Calvinism which Luther did not even predict when he started Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide. It’s going to be a tall order for you to preach these to a bunch of Catholics.

 

[adrift]

That’s why it is God who is faithful and just to forgive us of all sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This is also why God is the perfect and infinitely superior bearer of forgiveness.

We should all prefer the Source.

Jesus said who sins you will forgive is forgiven so Jesus gave the power to forgive to His established clergy. I do prefer the source which is what Jesus established.

 

[Atemi]

Jesus said who sins you will forgive is forgiven so Jesus gave the power to forgive to His established clergy.

You do know that all the Christians in the earliest church were not confessing their sins to clergy and receiving absolution, right?

That did not come for many centuries.

 

[Milliardo]

You do know that all the Christians in the earliest church were not confessing their sins to clergy and receiving absolution, right?

That did not come for many centuries.

John 20:23. Enough said.

 

[adrift]

You do know that all the Christians in the earliest church were not confessing their sins to clergy and receiving absolution, right?

That did not come for many centuries.

ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=290026&Forums=3&Experts=0&Days=2003&Author=&Keyword=confession&pgnu=1&groupnum=0&record_bookmark=5&ORDER_BY_TXT=ORDER+BY+ReplyDate+DESC&start_at=

In the early Church, there was no specific form for the sacrament, but most of the first churches followed the teachings of St. Paul (e.g., 1 Cor 5:3-5; 2 Cor 2:7-11) in which is stressed the power of the keys, namely the authority to bind and loose, placing the sinner under ban of excommunication, and then reconciling the sinner. Initial custom, as evidenced by the Didache and James (5:16), may have been in some areas to make confession of sins in public. While public admission of sins was used at times, this probably ceased early on and by the fifth century was discouraged by authorities, as evidenced by Pope St. Leo I the Great who, in 459, condemned the public reading of a chart containing the sins of the penitents. **Confession was made by a sinner in the early Church to a bishop of the local **community. When the size of the Christian population grew, as in Rome, Antioch, and, from the fourth-century Constantinople, the penitents made confession to a priest penitentiary.

Continued

 

[adrift]

In some regions, it was common for a severe sinner (those guilty of apostasy, adultery, and murder) to be enrolled as a so-called public penitent. They would be dressed in sackcloth, a garment made of goat hair, and be covered with ashes to give visible symbol of separation from the faithful. During Mass, such persons were kept away from the Offertory, Prayers of the Faithful, and the Eucharist (with the catechumens); penitents also had to fast and contribute alms to the poor. They were reconciled according to Pope Innocent I (r. 401-417) on the Thursday before Easter. In the cases of those guilty of lesser transgressions, they performed penances that included fasting, prayers, and almsgiving.

A practice of penance in Celtic lands developed in a manner different from that found on the Continent. The minister of reconciliation was customarily the priest abbot of the monastery dominating the area or a priest monk in one of the surrounding churches. Penances were also much more severe in the Celtic Church. A person guilty of serious sins might be exiled, forced to wander with a pilgrim’s staff. For those who have made minor transgressions, punishments might include extreme prayer, fasts, or living on bread and water for a prescribed time. The Irish monks also fostered two other innovations: the permitting of repeated penance and the granting of immediate absolution with penance to be performed later. The first rule was born out of the idea that a person should have only one public penance and that further public penance should not be allowed so as not to give confusion to the catechumens. The second rule reversed the standing practice of doing penance and then receiving absolution. The Celtic practice of immediate absolution subsequently became very popular, fostered throughout Europe by the missionary endeavors of the Irish monks.

During the Middle Ages, theologians in the Western Church gave recognition of penance as a sacrament of the Church. They often disagreed and speculated, however, as to the element of the sacrament granting the actual grace of forgiveness. Peter Lombard in the twelfth century, for example, proposed that absolution by the priest was to make clear to the sinner that sins have been forgiven by the grace of the person’s sorrow. This was contrary to the thinking of Hugh of St. Victor (d. 1141), who stated that it was by the priest’s absolution that sins were forgiven. Further analysis was made by both St. Bonaventure and St. Thomas Aquinas. They stipulated that, in keeping with the terminology of Aristotelianism, the matter of the sacrament was in the act of the penitent and the form of the sacrament was the absolution of the minister. Penance was subsequently defined as a sacrament at the Council of Lyons in 1274.

Further and extensive clarification of the sacrament was made by the Council of Trent (1545-1563), issuing some nine chapters and fifteen canons on penance. These were considered quite important in the face of the Reformers, who were de-emphasizing the place of the priest, going so far as to declare the minister as unnecessary. The council stated that all Christians should confess their mortal sins, both by number and species, to a priest who was empowered to grant absolution. Vatican Council II reaffirmed the teachings of Trent but also placed emphasis on the healing nature of the sacrament of penance and introduced changes in the rite. The Church today, as stipulated in the Code of Canon Law, requires that all Catholics should confess their mortal sins at least once a year; venial sins should also be confessed.

Pope John Paul II has stressed the importance of the sacrament throughout his pontificate, issuing in 1984 the post-synodal apostolic exhortation Reconciliatio et Poenitentia (“Reconciliation and Penance”) and his 2002 motu proprio Misericordia Dei (“Mercy of God, On Certain Aspects of the Celebration of the Sacrament of Penance”). The latter document urged “vigorous revitalization” of the sacrament and requested that bishops adopt stricter observance on Church law’s “grave necessity” requirement as a condition for the use of general absolution.

Yes I do realize the development of the Sacrament from the first command of Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. to the present day.

 

[Linkowski]

It is quite clear your argument on predestination rests on Calvinism which Luther did not even predict when he started Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide. It’s going to be a tall order for you to preach these to a bunch of Catholics.

You may be correct - because they generally do not want to accept it although scripture makes election/predestination very clear.

What is your understanding of this particular passage?

Ro 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

BY THE WAY, THIS IS WHAT I WOULD SAY IN RESPONSE TO YOUR ISSUES WITH GOD’S CHOOSING OF SOME TO SALVATION WHILE PASSING OVER OTHERS (ALTHOUGH NONE OF US DESERVE SALVATION)

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

THIS IS ANOTHER PASSAGE DESIGNED TO ANSWER PEOPLE THAT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH GOD CHOOSING SOME TO SALVATION WHILE PASSING OVER OTHERS…

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

God chooses us according to His plan and purpose - and not by anything that we do…

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Was Judas chosen??? Certainly not…

John 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

That is why Judas was allowed to go wayward while Jesus still prayed for Peter’s return…

Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Other passages…

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Act 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Our faith comes through grace…

Acts 18:27 And when he wanted to go across to Achaia, the brethren encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him; and when he had arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace,

And God’s choosing is by grace…

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Nobody can come to Christ unless they are drawn to Him…

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

DRAW - or helko hel’-ko; probably akin to 138; **to drag **(literally or figuratively):–draw. Compare 1667.

It is effectual grace of election - God’s gracious choice.

 

[japhy]

BY THE WAY, THIS IS WHAT I WOULD SAY IN RESPONSE TO YOUR ISSUES WITH GOD’S CHOOSING OF SOME TO SALVATION WHILE PASSING OVER OTHERS (ALTHOUGH NONE OF US DESERVE SALVATION)

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

THIS IS ANOTHER PASSAGE DESIGNED TO ANSWER PEOPLE THAT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH GOD CHOOSING SOME TO SALVATION WHILE PASSING OVER OTHERS…

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

And yet in the same letter to the Romans, Paul writes: Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. (Rom 5:18, KJV)

Later he writes: For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. (Rom 11:29-32, KJV) If the calling of God is irrevokable, yet the Jews, the Chosen People of God, were called and answered and believed and then fell into unbelief, how then shall they receive mercy again? By repenting and believing. If they do not, even though they were called, they have refused to respond to that call.

To Timothy, Paul writes that God will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 Tim 2:3-4, KJV) To Titus he writes that the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men (Tit 2:11, KJV). He does not speak of man’s acceptance of the truth and of salvation (that is, universal salvation), but that it is presented to all men. Jesus makes it clear not all are saved, and Paul must be in congruence.

 

[Atemi]

John 20:23. Enough said.

I repeat:

You do know that all the Christians in the earliest church were not confessing their sins to clergy and receiving absolution, right?

This is a matter of history.

“Enough said” only applies to your interpretation, not the reality.

 

[Atemi]

Yes I do realize the development of the Sacrament from the first command of Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. to the present day.

Good.

So that means you understand the reality that most Christians never confessed their sins to any clergy in the early church.

That totally negates the change in doctrine made by the RCC since then.

I personally am only interested in ACTUAL Apostolic doctrine and the faith they passed on to us, not any newer changed versions. The answer you quoted gave us the Apostolic doctrine in a nutshell:

“In the early Church, there was no specific form for the sacrament”

I think it is fair to say that is exactly how the Apostles left the matter. Either that, or all the early churches forgot the teachings passed on to them. This also means that the early church never interpreted teachings as in John 20:23 as the RCC does today.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

You do know that all the Christians in the earliest church were not confessing their sins to clergy and receiving absolution, right?

catholic.com/library/Confession.asp

and from the Rock Magazine Volume 17 Issue 4 April 2006:

Confession in the Early Church:

Obtaining forgiveness for sins in the primitive Church wasn’t only a private affair between the sinner and God; it also meant reconciliation with the community (see Jas. 5:14–16). Jesus advocated a fraternal process of reconciliation, including mutual correction and community discipline (Matt. 5:23–24; 18:15–19). A specific sacramental practice of reconciliation emerged within the first three centuries of Church history.

* Origen, a prolific theologian in the third-century Church, wrote:
  The layman who falls into sin cannot by himself wash away his fault. He must have recourse to the levite; he needs the priest. At times, he applies to one even greater: he needs the pontiff’s help, that he may obtain the forgiveness of sins (Hom. in Numeros 10, 1).
* St. Cyprian, bishop of Carthage, also writing in the third century, said:
  I entreat you, brethren, that each one should confess his own sin while he who has sinned is still in this world, while his confession may be received, while his satisfaction and absolution given the priest are still pleasing to the Lord (De lapsis 28, 29).
* In the fourth century, St. Ambrose, bishop of Milan, wrote:
  Sins are forgiven through the Holy Ghost. Certainly, but men lend him their ministry. . . . They forgive sin, not in their own name, but in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost (De Spiritu Sancto iii, 137).

 

[Atemi]

All the quotes in the world do not change the reality that I posted.

I am addressing how the earliest church practiced, as they practiced fresh off the teaching of the Apostles who planted those churches.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

All the quotes in the world do not change the reality that I posted.

I am addressing how the earliest church practiced, as they practiced fresh off the teaching of the Apostles who planted those churches.

Do you have some actual evidence of this, or are you just being led by the Spirit?

There are the citations from Scripture (written by Apostles), the Didache (teaching of the Apostles), the Early Church Fathers (the direct disciples of the Apostles). Sorry, we don’t have audio feedback of Apostolic discussions, nor can we video conference with the Apostles. So, what more do you want?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

The people in the earliest church wore sandals and robes and reclined when they ate meals.

Do you?

The earliest Christians were executed for practicing their faith.

Are you?

The earliest Christians didn’t have a Bible to read from.

Do you?

So please stop with the ‘they didn’t do exactly what you do today in the early Church so anything you do that isn’t exactly like the early Christians is wrong’. .

unless you want to live as a group with goods ‘in common’ (they did that in 'the earliest church).
unless you want to eschew cars, electricity, medical care, etc. and live off the land in your sandals and robe. . .but make sure you aren’t eating things like potatoes (the apostles didn’t), and speaking only Aramaic, Koine Greek, or Latin (the apostles didn’t know English). . .and of course, you can only have ‘scripture’ in its original scrolls. Oh, and be sure to find an apostle to give you the binding and loosing and the eucharist, like those early Christians.

You do realize that the earliest Christians adapted even in their apostolic years, right? That Peter ‘originally’ kept kosher but then was granted a vision in which he was told to ‘take and eat’ from unclean animals.
So, how many years did Peter still keep kosher and then (as the Spirit guided him) stop? And how long did it take for various groups to hear the ‘new’ decision? So you have for X years a group of Christians doing ‘one’ thing, then you have a revelation from the Spirit and they ‘develop’ into something ‘deeper’ which is ‘different’.

Why don’t Protestant Churches worship “exactly” as the early Church? They don’t, you know. So, either Jesus ‘meant’ us to live in a time warp where even after Christianity spread and was no longer persecuted, we were still to live in tiny groups, share our goods, and otherwise live life as 1st century AD people. . .or He ‘meant’ the Holy Spirit to “guide you to all truth”. Come to think of that, he said just that–The Spirit will guide you. Guide. . .you know, if you just stay ‘stagnant’ you don’t need a guide because you’re already there. If there is further truth and revelation, you do need a guide so you don’t take the wrong path.

So either the Catholic/Orthodox church took a wrong path for like 1500 years until the Protestants ‘rescued’ the church (except, oops, they aren’t doing the ‘early Church living’ either). . .or, guess what? The Catholic Church DID do the right thing, they were guided by the Spirit, the practices have been right all along, and the ones who question are ‘on the wrong path’.

.