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Kendy
Guest
Where does this criteria come from? Also, would it imply that nonchristians who have no sense that they are consciously rejecting Jesus, but organized religion, which is what most would say, can go to heaven?
Kendy
- Status
Kendy
R
Redbandito
Guest
How about, I have attempted to live God’s two greatest commandments to the best of my ability. I have been obedient out of love for God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and I have asked God for his mercy where my imperfections lay through the atonement of Christ Jesus. Would that work?Sure. I can’t really remember why I was asking to begin with. My pleading the cross might be more reflective of my prostestant nurturing, which affects my “language.” But evangelicals like to use this in their missionary work because most people will respond, well, I would say I am a good person and I have lived a good life, and then the evangelist can say, wrong answer.
Kendy
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Redbandito
Guest
Can they go to Heaven? Sure. Am I saying they will one way or the other? Absolutely not. It is God’s gift to give to whom He chooses. I cannot give to anyone what is not mine. In response to your question, have you heard of invincible ignorance? Take a look at that, and it might answer your question. Ultimately though, we will have to know God as trinity to be in Heaven.
Where does the criteria come from? You can find this in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. However, I believe the Scripture makes the distinction between sins in 1 John 5:16. There are sins that are “deadly” and sins that are “not deadly”. This is the distinction Catholics make between mortal and venial. There are a couple of lists of sins “we cannot live by” that Paul gives us in his letters. One is in 1 Cor, and I can’t remember where the other is off-hand. I am currently at work, so I don’t have access to my resources. Sorry! Anyway, I believe both the Scripture and the Church make a pretty good case for this position. Hope I have answered your question.
J
jpete79
Guest
Can you explain invincible ignorance…I think I have a slight idea of it but would like to know more?
G
gardenswithkids
Guest
What Redbandito wrote sounds much like something St. Paul wrote:
For he says to Moses,
‘I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
*and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.’ *
So it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who shows mercy. Romans 9: 15-16
K
Kendy
Guest
Well, this brings us back to square one so for better or vworse I am glad I asked that simple protestant question.
Your answer is not one I would use because it brings the attention to what I have done rather than what Christ has done and I want to boast in nothing but the cross. I think I have said often in this thread that a believer is to do all these things— try to love God and your neighbor, lest Jesus says, depart from me, I never knew you. Perhaps, what I have not said is that a beleiver is never to boast on these things. I am constantly aware of how poorly I do these things (how selfish I am in my business, how little I give to charity, how much I spend on petty luxury, how distracted I am by world things, etc) , and it is my sincere hope that God will not judge on how well I have performed because if He does than I am already condemned. In fact, catholics beleive that that OSOS would lead people to sin, but for me, this would lead me to sin. Realizing that I cannot love God and my neighbor enough to deserve to be in His presence, I would simply stop trying, and try to enjoy my sins on my way to hell.
Anyway, I realize that you have given this a lot of thought and I respect you although I don’t agree you. I have shared my testimony and I hope that you have heard me. But more importantly, I sincerely hope to see you someday in heaven and perhaps, we can joke about our discussions on the net
; so, I really hope you are right.Kendy
P.S. It’s too bad because I was reading online yesterday that Peter was the first bishop of Rome, and I must confess it made me think. I was up till 3 a.m. thinking about this. However, I am afraid I feel more secure relying wholly and completely on the cross.
PS: If I don’t answer for a week, it’s because I am leaving for vacation. Merry Christ and God bless you.
R
Redbandito
Guest
Actually, I think there was a thread really recently on this very subject. I would advise you to read that one. You’d probably get a much better explanation that way.
R
Redbandito
Guest
Well, just hold up real quickly. I agree with you on this last sentence. I too, know that I cannot love my neighbor enough to “deserve to be in His presence”. After all we have discussed, I am a little disappointed that you could come to that conclusion. I must not be explaining myself well. And my answer certainly does not talk at all about what I have done. It talks specifically to what Christ has done in my life. Let’s try this one more time. Where Luther taught that we are simply a pile of cow dung covered by snow, the Church teaches that while we might have been a pile of cow dung before the snow covered us, once it covered us it also transformed us into snow. If this is the case, my nature has changed from the nature of cow dung to the nature of snow. Everything I now do as snow comes from my new snow nature. In the same way, everything I do once I have become a “partaker of the divine nature” (2 Pet 1:4), is meritorious because it comes directly from the grace of God. You follow me? This does not denigrate the cross. It elevates it! God doesn’t just cover us, He transforms us! He makes us worthy! On our own, this would not be possible. BUT, because of the atonement and redemption of the cross, it is. Don’t make the mistake of believing that works that come from me have any merit. However, works that God has enabled me to do, have absolute merit. Just as your child performing his chores has merit in your eyes. That’s not what makes him your son, but it pleases you and makes you want to reward him. Does that make it clearer?
I’ll get back to you on this soon.Anyway, I realize that you have given this a lot of thought and I respect you although I don’t agree you. I have shared my testimony and I hope that you have heard me. But more importantly, I sincerely hope to see you someday in heaven and perhaps, we can joke about our discussions on the net
Kendy
P.S. It’s too bad because I was reading online yesterday that Peter was the first bishop of Rome, and I must confess it made me think. I was up till 3 a.m. thinking about this. However, I am afraid I feel more secure relying wholly and completely on the cross.
PS: If I don’t answer for a week, it’s because I am leaving for vacation. Merry Christ and God bless you.
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wpr
Guest
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jpete79
Guest
jpete79:
I made this point earlier in the thread. OSAS is not found in Scripture unless you are reading Scripture and looking for it. In none of the Scripture you posted is OSAS found.
**Jpete, the idea comes from Luther and the reformers who were backed into the idea because they believed in total depravity of man combined with hyper-predestination. **
**I have no idea where you get the idea that Hebrews 6:46 is the “most sighted” verse to counter OSAS. I’d rather say there are over 60! In fact, in every single book of the NT! **
Read John 3:16, but also read Christ’s words through to the end of verse 20. He’s not done until vs 20!
**John 1: 26~30 nowhere tells us “if I show faith as a one time or limited time event” that I am gauranteed irrevocable salvation. Jpete, it’s just not there. Yes, Christ’s words seem to comfort, but He does not make your point. “They know me and they follow me”. They both “know” and “follow”. So what does it mean to “follow” Christ? **
**Please understand, I am not trying to rain on your parade. I think you find the OSAS concept comforting. **
John 6:37-40 - “All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”
**John 6: 37~40: Christ says he will “never drive away”. He does not say that someone cannot drive themself away. Further, did Christ not teach you in John 3:16~20 what it means to beleive? Again JPete, OSAS is not present. **
Ephesians 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
**Jpete, this is weak. Paul tells us so many times that we can fall away. Does Paul contradict himself? Not to a Catholic. **
Both views are shown to be Biblical but unfortunately due to our human nature we cannot fully comprehend which is correct. Here is a good source (it is a Protestant source) that argues points from both sides
**Jpete, the Catholic Church has held Scripture in balance for 2000 Years. The final word on the interpretation of Scripture is in the hands of the Magisterium in union with the Pope. We beleive that the Holy Spirit guides them. Why? Because Jesus promised the Spirit will be with them to the end of time. (Biblical)
Contrary to most Protestants reaction to the Magisterium, I donot feel coerced or threatened. Rather the opposite. I see the brilliance of their age old teaching. I am comforted that the “faith” and the Scriptures are not held only in the hands of men where it surely will be abused. We we have witnessed ourselves this abuse from the beginning. Yet, for 2000 years, the CHurch has prevailed. It’s quite a testimony in my view.
Merry Christmas**
WPR:
If indeed OSAS is wrong; than what constitutes a falling out with God? What constitutes a loss of salvation? How can we lose it?
What would you rather believe that God loves you despite your mistakes and has a place set aside for you once you accept Him (even though you still do wrong when you strive to do right) or that you have to live life day to day thinking about what you do to make sure you don’t lose your salvation?
C
clmowry
Guest
wpr:
Of course I’d rather belive the first premise.
But simply because I’d like to belive this doesn’t make it so.
It seems clear that continued sin requires continued repentance.
Chuck
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Redbandito
Guest
wpr:
I’d rather believe the truth, whatever that might be. It doesn’t do me good to have some false sense of security.
Secondly, I find my comfort in God’s grace every bit as much as you do. The difference is, I do it in a way that meshes with Scripture.
G
gardenswithkids
Guest
We can lose it by rejecting God. We reject Him when we prefer commiting a serious sin (mortal sin) over loving God and don’t repent before we die. (That said, I don’t think God stands around with His lightning rod ready to strike the first moment we mess up.)
I don’t think this is an either/or quetion. I do believe that God still does love me despite my mistakes and has a place set aside for me. But sometimes invited guests fail to show up for the party. If I fully strive to do right, then when I do wrong I repent and He once again forgives me.
As to the second choice, I prefer to examine how I live each day to repent anything I did to offend God because I don’t want to offend Him. And even if you are right about OSAS, (which I don’t think you are, but for the sake of the argument), even if there is nothing I can do to loose my salvation, I still prefer examining my actions frequently to avoid offending such a generous God and to repent fully when I do. The act of contrition I learned includes the words “and I detest all my sins because of Your just punishment, but most of all for having offended Thee my God, who are all good and deserving of all my love.” It’s not simply about the fear of hell–it’s more about not wanting to offend God who deserves all our love.
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Kendy
Guest
**Where Luther taught that we are simply a pile of cow dung covered by snow, the Church teaches that while we might have been a pile of cow dung before the snow covered us, once it covered us it also transformed us into snow. If this is the case, my nature has changed from the nature of cow dung to the nature of snow. Everything I now do as snow comes from my new snow nature. In the same way, everything I do once I have become a “partaker of the divine nature” (2 Pet 1:4), is meritorious because it comes directly from the grace of God. You follow me? **
Yes, and I am inclined to agree. However, that’s even more reason to attribute your works to the glory of the cross.
**However, works that God has enabled me to do, have absolute merit. Just as your child performing his chores has merit in your eyes. That’s not what makes him your son, but it pleases you and makes you want to reward him. Does that make it clearer? **
I couldn’t agree more. Your son performing chores doesn’t amke him your son. He is your son because he was born in your househ In the same way, we are children of God because we are born in Christ.
Kendy
Yes, and I am inclined to agree. However, that’s even more reason to attribute your works to the glory of the cross.
**However, works that God has enabled me to do, have absolute merit. Just as your child performing his chores has merit in your eyes. That’s not what makes him your son, but it pleases you and makes you want to reward him. Does that make it clearer? **
I couldn’t agree more. Your son performing chores doesn’t amke him your son. He is your son because he was born in your househ In the same way, we are children of God because we are born in Christ.
Kendy
B
Bishopite
Guest
For many years I thought that Martin Luther specifically wrote or spoke using the analogy of the “cow dung covered by snow” but after I made the same assertion in a previous thread,nowhere could I nor others searching, find where Luther specifically wrote this. Luther certainly did have a position of imputed justification (and the cow covered dunghill would be an apropos mtetaphor for his imputed position on justification) but that phrase is, I’m afraid, mistakenly atributed to him without any specific citation of him saying it. If you have a quote of Luther saying this PLEASE post it, I’d like to have it myself for future reference
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Redbandito
Guest
Amen! I agree completely! However, that implies our cooperation with His grace. That means we must continue to persevere in good works, so that His “grace may abound”. While I cannot work my way into a family, I can certainly work my way out. It’s called being disowned. I can disown my Father. I can squander my inheritance. So, while I completely agree with what you said, you still must take it to it’s natural conclusion. The problem is that you are so trained to jump on anything that could possibly resemble the Catholic view of Justification that you cannot see that your position MUST lead you right to it in order to be consistent. It’s okay!
Again, I agree! That’s my whole point. We don’t work our way into God’s family. That comes from grace. However, you continue to evade the point of the parable of the Prodigal Son. We cannot move forward until you acknowledge that while we can’t work our way into the family, we can work our way out.
J
jpete79
Guest
John 6:37-40 - “All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”
It is true that this says that Christ will never drive away, so this means we can walk away. However, it also says that Christ will lose none of what God has given him but raise them up on the last day.
If anyone has ever had a pet and it runs away or escapes from the cage, the owner still loses that pet even if it is the pet that runs away. I am not reading this with any goggles or glasses of OSAS but instead am reading it with how it is literally worded.
Ephesians 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
I was told this was weak. In ancient days a King or Emporer or ruler would use a seal to mark his approval on a document to state that it is accepted. We are sealed with the approval of God! There is nothing stronger in my mind then this for God would not give His approval (which we don’t deserve) if we could undue that seal again. Once something is sealed, the approval does not change.
John 10:26-30 - “You do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”
Shepherding is something I have studied (not practiced) because of all the pastoralists in the Bible (Joseph, David, Christ, etc). When combining this with Romans 6 we see we can follow Christ’s voice or sins (we can only have one master). We don’t sit neutral and let all the deeds we do for Christ measure against all the sins we succumb to. We obey a master; we will make mistakes but once we admit that Christ is master, WE WILL NEVER PERISH. No one can snatch a sheep out of his hands.
Psalm 139 says that He hems behind and before. Hemming is a word shepherds use. It means that they keep in line. When we are a sheep of Christ, He is behind us and before us. He is making sure that we are on His path. Again, we will sin but our master is ultimately Jesus Christ. It is not a weight or balance that presents our judgment it is the cross given to humanity. We never deserved God’s Grace. If we didn’t deserve it, would it be taken away after we were sealed?
It is true that this says that Christ will never drive away, so this means we can walk away. However, it also says that Christ will lose none of what God has given him but raise them up on the last day.
If anyone has ever had a pet and it runs away or escapes from the cage, the owner still loses that pet even if it is the pet that runs away. I am not reading this with any goggles or glasses of OSAS but instead am reading it with how it is literally worded.
Ephesians 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
I was told this was weak. In ancient days a King or Emporer or ruler would use a seal to mark his approval on a document to state that it is accepted. We are sealed with the approval of God! There is nothing stronger in my mind then this for God would not give His approval (which we don’t deserve) if we could undue that seal again. Once something is sealed, the approval does not change.
John 10:26-30 - “You do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”
Shepherding is something I have studied (not practiced) because of all the pastoralists in the Bible (Joseph, David, Christ, etc). When combining this with Romans 6 we see we can follow Christ’s voice or sins (we can only have one master). We don’t sit neutral and let all the deeds we do for Christ measure against all the sins we succumb to. We obey a master; we will make mistakes but once we admit that Christ is master, WE WILL NEVER PERISH. No one can snatch a sheep out of his hands.
Psalm 139 says that He hems behind and before. Hemming is a word shepherds use. It means that they keep in line. When we are a sheep of Christ, He is behind us and before us. He is making sure that we are on His path. Again, we will sin but our master is ultimately Jesus Christ. It is not a weight or balance that presents our judgment it is the cross given to humanity. We never deserved God’s Grace. If we didn’t deserve it, would it be taken away after we were sealed?
J
jpete79
Guest
Romans 8:28-39 - And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all-how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died-more than that, who was raised to life-is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: “For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
If God’s love presents us with eternal life after committing and submitting to the Lordship of Christ then His love is eternal. Nothing can seperate us from that love; nothing anyone does to us and nothing we do to anyone. It’s not a free pass to sin because we are to submit to God’s authority but we are forgiven if we do sin. Nothing seperates us from the Father’s love.
1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
Simply put that you may KNOW that you have eternal life. This is saying we can have an assurance of eternity.
Philippians 1:6 - …being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
This is a great promise. When we come to Christ we are still sinners before His throne but God will begin a good work in us and carry it to completion. How can this promise be interpreted if we can walk away from God? It is no longer a promise and we can no longer be confident that God will complete us, that we will be perfected.
Last, I’ve heard the story of the Prodigal son used. If any of you have come to Christ, you have already lived that story. We were once God’s children in the Garden of Eden. We (humanity) were given everything needed and instead of accepting it we wanted more and walked off thinking we could live on our own. We were lost and we came back to God.
Nowhere does this parable indicate that we can walk away again, it was that we already walked away. We were dead and are now alive. We go to God and say I have sinned against you and against Heaven, I am not WORTHY to be called your son.
We are not worthy but God welcomes us back with open arms. Once we come back, He’s not letting go again.
I already know that I will hear that I’ve read these with goggles or with a closed mind. I have admitted that this subject is complex and can be both supported and refuted by Scripture (which doesn’t mean that Scripture is contradictory but means that I am not intelligent enough to understand the ways of God). I will hear that I am wrong, that I can’t interpret properly, that I don’t know what I’m talking about but I ask that you read this for yourselves and see who Christ is and who God is. God is no longer a judge but is now a Father. Our sins were taken away at the Cross and we can indeed be confident of eternity because of the forgiveness there.
God Bless.
If God’s love presents us with eternal life after committing and submitting to the Lordship of Christ then His love is eternal. Nothing can seperate us from that love; nothing anyone does to us and nothing we do to anyone. It’s not a free pass to sin because we are to submit to God’s authority but we are forgiven if we do sin. Nothing seperates us from the Father’s love.
1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
Simply put that you may KNOW that you have eternal life. This is saying we can have an assurance of eternity.
Philippians 1:6 - …being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
This is a great promise. When we come to Christ we are still sinners before His throne but God will begin a good work in us and carry it to completion. How can this promise be interpreted if we can walk away from God? It is no longer a promise and we can no longer be confident that God will complete us, that we will be perfected.
Last, I’ve heard the story of the Prodigal son used. If any of you have come to Christ, you have already lived that story. We were once God’s children in the Garden of Eden. We (humanity) were given everything needed and instead of accepting it we wanted more and walked off thinking we could live on our own. We were lost and we came back to God.
Nowhere does this parable indicate that we can walk away again, it was that we already walked away. We were dead and are now alive. We go to God and say I have sinned against you and against Heaven, I am not WORTHY to be called your son.
We are not worthy but God welcomes us back with open arms. Once we come back, He’s not letting go again.
I already know that I will hear that I’ve read these with goggles or with a closed mind. I have admitted that this subject is complex and can be both supported and refuted by Scripture (which doesn’t mean that Scripture is contradictory but means that I am not intelligent enough to understand the ways of God). I will hear that I am wrong, that I can’t interpret properly, that I don’t know what I’m talking about but I ask that you read this for yourselves and see who Christ is and who God is. God is no longer a judge but is now a Father. Our sins were taken away at the Cross and we can indeed be confident of eternity because of the forgiveness there.
God Bless.
K
Kendy
Guest
You know, I was thinking the other it’s pretty unfair of me to insist that you answer the question, “How do you plead?” the way I think you should because I was been trained by association to think that way. I wasn’t looking for evidence of catholicism, but I am always looking for evidence that someone think they can be good enough to deserve God’s grace.
As long as you agree that you can’t work your way into God’s family, then we have no disagreement. Now, as for working your way out, I really think that’s a separate issue. We have the cross to thank for membership into God’s family. That is the only thing that makes us children of God.
I think I have already conceded that God’s grace cannot enslave you so you must cooperate with that, and presumably you can reject that. The only question would be if you did that on Earth could you still go to heaven? Well, I don’t.
Kendy
G
gardenswithkids
Guest
Jpete79, have you ever had someone like you and want to be with you when you didn’t want to be with them? Maybe that person was once your friend, but you don’t like him anymore. Now imagine that nothing will ever separate you from that person, and that you have to spend eternity with that person whom you no longer like.
Maybe being in the presence of God doesn’t feel good to the person who wants to separate himself from God’s love. God’s burning love for that person might even, well, burn. Maybe what should have been heaven, feels like hell.
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