Justified by Faith Alone cf. James 2:24

[ajcstr]

Wikipedia as a reliably, sound source regarding scripture???

Hey, it sums the issue up as well as our 600+ posts have ! PS, lets see who submits post #666 !

James is clearly concerned with the Christian, not the unbeliever.

Agreed. Well I agree he is addressing believers in this letter, I’m sure he is concerned about unbelievers.

There is nothing in the book that gives the unbeliever a formula for salvation.

I agree to an extent but he is saying that works justify. He says it plainly, he clearly uses Abraham’s works as an example. The same person Paul uses as an example in Romans. he plainly says a man is NOT justified by faith alone. I agree he is not talking about initial justification but he is talking about progressive justification/sanctification/salvation.

 

[JonNC]

See my last post along with this.

That’s what the Council of Trent was for, to define doctrine. I could ask a similar question in that would a Christian in Greece in 250 understand the Trinity as we would present it now?

I understand. Can I infer from your response that it is possible that Luther was responding to a teaching that was not entirely consistent with what you and LR are defending?

 

[ajcstr]

I understand. Can I infer from your response that it is possible that Luther was responding to a teaching that was not entirely consistent with what you and LR are defending?

Well, two things.

I don’t know how bad the Church was in the 1500’s and what was actually being taught.

I believe Luther was wrong in that he did not understand what “works of the law” meant, and I think that error affected his doctrine.

Given these two points, its difficult to answer the question. Also, I’m not so sure he would have had the same issues with the Church today.

 

[JonNC]

Well, two things.

I don’t know how bad the Church was in the 1500’s and what was actually being taught.

I believe Luther was wrong in that he did not understand what “works of the law” meant, and I think that error affected his doctrine.

Given these two points, its difficult to answer the question. Also, I’m not so sure he would have had the same issues with the Church today.

Thanks. I think he understood works of the law, but I think you may be correct that he would view Catholic soteriology differently today, though ecclesiology might still be a bone of contention.

 

[Debbie_Kono]

That is only because you read it through the lens of what’s already been taught to you: trinitarian dogma.

But I guarantee you that a man on a desert island who’s been isolated from all things Christian would NEVER be able to conclude “There is One God in 3 Divine Persons” by reading the Bible. If the Bible were dropped on his island, and he read it cover to cover, without any Christian lens, he’d conclude, probably, the JWs were right about their Christology.

Neither would island man conclude “This is my body” to be symbolic…verse 66 clears that up.

 

[Debbie_Kono]

My question to anyone who claims to be a Christian is “are you a new creation”? Has your heart been changed from dead to being alive? Anyone can say they are a Christian. But how many who claim Christ have truly been changed? How much of our American religious society is folks going through the motions and putting on a show from friends and family, but have never cried out to God as a result of conviction of sin and realization that without Christ we are nothing? And in evangelical circles, How many of us are relying on a prayer said when we were children or teenagers, but the prayer was just words instead of a cry from the heart that resulted in a change to our inmost being. Or how many of us rely on our intellectual understanding and personal piety to make us “a Christian” instead of turning our entire selves over to Christ and letting Him change our heart.

I can say with absolute certainty this is what happened to me. I was in a second marriage to the man of my dreams. He was an ex-missionary who fell into sin, leaving his wife, children and mission…but of course knew the Bible well. He told me all about Jesus and I got “saved”. Problem was I never felt saved. I told him his beliefs sounded like a get of jail free card. And what about Peter? Wasn’t that the Catholic Church? He assured me it wasn’t. Not knowing the faith or the Bible I took him at his word. I adored him. For the first time in my life I was going to church and had Christian friends. That part I loved…but still something was wrong. I honestly just thought my name was not written down in the Book of Life. I cannot tell you how many times I thought that. Fast forward 10 years into the “marriage” and I “happen” upon a hard core traditional Catholic online. Now this makes sense to me. And the Eucharist! They believe this? They always have? Needless to say hubby was not happy and tried to stop me from following this gal. I didn’t…but I stopped sharing with him what I was learning. He didn’t want to hear it. By this time though I was questioning the whole Protestant thing. Where is the worship at these “services”? Who was right? OSAS or loose your salvation? I would tell our friends in our Bible study that I didn’t believe we (hubby and me) looked any different than the world. Something is wrong. Still I don’t pursue the Catholic thing…too volatile for the marriage. Life started to get messy with our (un)blended family. Jealousy hit me hard. I cried out to God…please, you promise to sprinkle us with clean water and put a new heart in us. I want this heart of stone changed for that heart of flesh You promise. Then tragedy hit. My youngest son died. He was 23. Some days later, on my knees sobbing and crying out to God again, why have You done this? He didn’t know You. He wasn’t ready. I wasn’t ready. He answered me with a question. “Where are you with My pain for putting My Son on that Cross for you”? I immediately stopped crying. I knew what He wanted. I was to go to the Church He had been calling me to for the last few years and where He is worshipped properly. The way He wants it. This was all in March of 2014. I went to a priest shortly thereafter, joined RCIA and entered the Church Easter 2015. My love for God, His Mother the Saints (I especially love St. Michael) now surpasses anything I had as a Protestant. (Not at all saying Protestant don’t love Jesus)…I just firmly believe the Sacraments, especially the Eucharist are paramount in learning to love God and neighbor. I am a changed person for sure. I’ve never been so firm in my faith as I am now. In hindsight, I can see many more incidences where God was showing me the Catholic faith was true…but because this is long enough…

On a sad note…hubby divorced me and it’s been final for six months (he wouldn’t “jump the hoops” of the “merciless” Church to see if his marriage had grounds for annulment) and has just recently moved in with his new girlfriend. He firmly believes that nothing can separate us from the love of God… Please pray for Jerry. It breaks my heart that the man who God used to reveal Himself to me is so very, very lost.

 

[LatinRight]

LR,
I very much appreciate your posts. Thank you.

Do you believe that a Catholic in Central Europe in the year 1517 would have understood Justification as you just presented it?

Jon

**God bless Jon and every readers of the CAF.

Thank you for your post.**

It is good question.

I believe that a Catholic in central Europe in the year 1517 understood Justification as I just presented it in my posts # 639, 640, 641.

God bless

LatinRight

 

[ajcstr]

Thanks. I think he understood works of the law, but I think you may be correct that he would view Catholic soteriology differently today, though ecclesiology might still be a bone of contention.

I think Luther viewed “works of the law” as good works, but that’s another discussion.

The second point regarding soteriology… do you believe something in the Church actually changed or do you think that as a response to the Reformation, the Church needed to fully define their teaching on justification ?

 

[spina1953]

Debbie Kono, great post! Sometimes we just see where we are to go and it takes a while before we see the path God is calling us to. But you found it in the end and that is what counts! Your ex is correct only on one part yes nothing can separate God’s love for us but he missed the fact that we can separate ourselves from God’s love. We can choose to reject God’s love while God never rejects His love for us.

 

[Cathoholic]

Wow!

Powerful witness Debbie Kono.

Thanks for sharing.

You are (correctly) concerned about the (false) teaching of OSAS.

You mentioned your husband said . . .

He firmly believes that nothing can separate us from the love of God…

Nothing does separate us from the LOVE of God.

But with people who ARE in The Vine (Jesus), but choose to not “REMAIN” in The Vine, that will separate them from the LIFE of The Vine.

And notice they were “really” IN Jesus in John 15. They had a “real” relationship with Christ (which means they had a REAL faith - NOT A FALSE FAITH).

Nothing can separate us from the love of God, but there are things that can separate us from the LIFE of God.

 

[ajcstr]

Just to add, OSAS like to reference Romans 8:38-39

For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Note that these verses do not mention any sins - compare this to 1 Corinthians 6

Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[James248]

Continuation

JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church

3/17 Justification is SOLELY due to the forgiving and renewing mercy that God imparts as a gift and we RECEIVE IN FAITH, and NEVER CAN MERIT IT ANY WAY.

4/25 We confess together that sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in Christ. WHATEVER in the JUSTIFIED PRECEDES or FOLLOWS the free gift of faith is NEITHER THE BASIS of justification NOR MERITS it.

4/27.The Catholic understanding also sees faith as fundamental in justification. For without faith, no justification can take place. Thus justifying grace never becomes a human possession. While Catholic teaching emphasizes the renewal of life by justifying grace, this RENEVAL in FAITH, HOPE, LOVE is always dependent on God’s unfathomable grace and contributes NOTHING to JUSTIFICATION.

4/37 We confess together that good works - a Christian life lived in faith, hope and love - FOLLOW JUSTIFICATION and ARE ITS FRUITS.

ANNEX TO THE OFFICIAL COMMON STATEMENT

C) Justification takes place "by grace alone“ (JD 15 and 16), by faith alone, the person is justified „apart from works“ (Rom 3:28, cf. JD 25).

D) "Whatever in the justified precedes or follows the free gift of faith is neither the basis of justification nor merits it“ (JD 25).

1. The doctrine of justification is measure or touchstone for the Christian faith. No teaching may contradict this criterion. In this sense, the doctrine of justification is an "indispensable criterion which constantly serves to orient all the teaching and practice of our churches to Christ“ (JD l8).

God bless Ajcstr and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

If that were true, then James wouldn’t have written “See how a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” Faith saves. Faith alone doesn’t.

 

[mackbrislawn]

What scripture supports that view? James is clearly a book about the Christian life. Not a book for the unbeliever.

You make a good point about not being a book for the unbeliever. In fact, none of the Bible is a book for the unbeliever. All of Scripture was written by believers for believers. It wasn’t written to unbelievers; so unbelievers unfamiliar with Christian doctrine will likely not understand it, and who knows what conclusions they would come to!

For instance, there is already a discussion in this thread about whether someone reading the Bible on their own would come up with the Trinity. I myself doubt it. An Evangelical I know expressed it well, he said the Trinity is taught in Scripture but not defended in Scripture. So the early Christians who were taught the deity of Christ and the Holy Spirit by the apostles to begin with knew how to find the proper passages in Scripture, but someone ignorant would not.

I think that is what Peter was talking about when he said regarding the writings of Paul, “There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.”

 

[Debbie_Kono]

Yes, thank you Cathoholic and spina…I should have clarified. God loves us no matter what and it is we who separate ourselves from Him.

 

[LatinRight]

Just to add, OSAS like to reference Romans 8:38-39

For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Note that these verses do not mention any sins - compare this to 1 Corinthians 6

Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

God bless Ajcstr and every readers of the CAF.

Good post I like it, I would not change it, I only like add to it.

Yes I agree, OSAS like to reference Romans 8:38-39 and addressed to the elect as they are as good as OSAS because they can NEVER lose their eternal life/heaven. – DE FIDE Dogma, John 5:24, 1 John 5:13; Rom.8:38-39; Phil.1:6; etc.

Heaven is in their bag of the elect from all eternity and they can never lose it.

So, it would be a theological fallacy to believe 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 addressed to the elect.

In fact 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 addressed to the reprobates, as hell is in their bag from all eternity.

Everlasting spiritual and physical death are in their bag from all eternity BECAUSE their names taken out from the Book of Life from all eternity.

So, they can NEVER HAVE LIFE, and they can NEVER HAVE LIFE for many other reasons as well.

They can never have a valid baptism as well because God performs His part of a valid baptism in heaven, reprobates can never reach heaven.

AS ELECT PART OF OUR BAPTISM

1. In heaven in Christ (our spirit + soul) have been built into God’s Holy Temple. for a habitation of God in the Spirit. – Eph.2:19-22.
2. God made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, –Eph.2:6.

** “AUGUSTINE’S CONTRIBUTION TO OUR UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE IN THE BODY OF CHRIST.**

Quote: We are inserted into the Body of Christ** by our baptism** and become members united to the Head, so that while our feet may be on earth we are already in heaven.” End quote.
The above quote taken from a public letter of Paul Maloney OSA Written September 19th 2012

Because it is a MYSTERY we may not yet fully understand the way it is possible that at the SAME TIME our (spirit + soul) is in heaven built into God’s Holy Temple, siting together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus and it is on the earth as well.

Continue

 

[LatinRight]

Continuation

**SUMMARY

THE PATTERN OF THE PREDESTINATION OF GOD’S CHILDREN/ELECT TO HEAVEN**

First theological fact: Their names stands written in the Book of Life from all eternity.

Second theological fact: They are predestined to heaven from all eternity.

Third theological fact: Heaven is in their bag from all eternity.

Fourth theological fact: Everlasting life is in their bag from all eternity.

Fifth theological fact: God performs His part of a valid baptism in heaven.
Only God’s children/elect can have valid baptism, no one else!!!

Sixth theological fact: In heaven in Christ (their spirit + soul) have been built into God’s Holy Temple. for a habitation of God in the Spirit. – Eph.2:19-22.

Seventh theological fact: God made them sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, –Eph.2:6.

THE PATTERN OF THE PREDESTINATION OF THE REPROBATES TO HELL. With Catholic terminology: Decree The Divine Reprobation.

The COUNTERPART of the predestination of the elect to heaven is Decree The Divine Reprobation (negative predestination to hell) of the reprobates.

First theological fact: The names of the reprobates taken out from the Book of Life from all eternity. – As their names are NOT in the Book of Life, they can NEVER HAVE LIFE for multiple reasons!!!

Second theological fact: They are predestined to hell from all eternity.

Third theological fact: Hell is in their bag from all eternity.

Fourth theological fact: Everlasting spiritual and physical death is in their bag from all eternity. – Everlasting spiritual and physical death is their past, present and future state.

Fifth theological fact: God performs His part of a valid baptism of the (spirit + soul) of the elect in heaven.

Reprobates CAN NEVER have valid baptism for many other reasons as well, their rejection of God and His grace, if a reprobate would have a valid baptism and would die one second after baptism, he would end up in heaven and God would lose His omniscience, etc.!!!

Sixth theological fact: In heaven in Christ (their spirit + soul) CAN NEVER built into God’s Holy Temple. for a habitation of God in the Spirit. – Eph.2:19-22.

Seventh theological fact: God NEVER MAKE them sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, –Eph.2:6.

The above theological facts positively proofs MANY TIMES OVER for a reprobate to have a valid baptism is a THEOLOGICAL IMPOSSIBILITY.

**When we reading the Scripture for example **Rom.8:38-39 we should know it is addressed to God’s elect and when we read for example
1 Cor.6:9-10 we also should know it is addressed to the reprobates.

We should never mix together Bible verses addressed to the elect with Bible verses addressed to the reprobates because if we mix them together instead of we know the fullness of the truth we believe the fullness of the confusion.

**Rom.8:38-39 **= We all should know, addressed to the elect.

**1 Cor.6:9-10 **= We all should know, addressed to the reprobates. Could not addressed to the elect because they cannot lose heaven.

I know Ajcstr you know the above principles very well, because you correctly connected Rom.8:38-39 with the OSAS/Elect.

God bless Ajcstr and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRignt

 

[Cathoholic]

Debbie Kono:

I should have clarified. God loves us no matter what and it is we who separate ourselves from Him.

Oh I know you affirm that. No need to clarify.

I was actually the one who was clarifying for others because there are “lurkers” that read these threads and I don’t want them walking away from here imbibing some of the OSAS pushers falsehoods on this by a cursory look at a verse or two (while ignoring other verses).

• Nothing can separate us from the LOVE of God
• But sin CAN separate us from the LIFE of God

JOHN 15:1-6 (NIV) “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

 

[Cathoholic]

LatinRight:

Reprobates CAN NEVER have valid baptism for many other reasons as well, their rejection of God and His grace, if a reprobate would have a valid baptism and would die one second after baptism, he would end up in heaven and God would lose His omniscience, etc.!!!

You are equating being “Born Again” or being Baptized, with automatically being of “The Elect” Latin Rite.

You are also denying “The Reprobate” CAN be born of water and the Spirit and later lose their spiritual life.

This is false and you keep re-asserting it but with no evidence.

Long verbose quotes do not necessarily make your point (and in this case they clearly have not).

 

[LatinRight]

LatinRight:

You are equating being “Born Again” or being Baptized, with automatically being of “The Elect” Latin Rite.

You are also denying “The Reprobate” CAN be born of water and the Spirit and later lose their spiritual life.

This is false and you keep re-asserting it but with no evidence.

Long verbose quotes do not necessarily make your point (and in this case they clearly have not).

God bless Cathoholic and every readers of the CAF.

No one can be “Born Again” without a valid baptism.

God performs his part of the valid baptism in heaven.

A reprobate can never reach heaven, so a reprobate can never have a valid baptism.

A reprobate can never in the state of grace because they can never have a valid baptism. – Anyway if a reprobate would die in the state of grace would end up in heaven and God would lose His omniscience.

God bless.

LatinRight

 

[Cathoholic]

Thanks for the shorter post LatinRite.

It greatly facilitates discussion here in this case.

---

At the End of Time everybody is going to go to Heaven or to Hell.

***Among many other things. . . . ***

• God is outside of time.
• God is everywhere.
• God knows everything.

Because of this God ALREADY KNOWS who will go (or has gone) to Heaven and who will (or has) gone to Hell.

The people who cooperate appropriately with God’s grace eventually go to Heaven are “The Elect.”

The people who eventually choose to (or have done so already) go to Hell are “The Reprobate.”

***At the End of Time . . . ***

• The Elect
• The Reprobate

God is NOT a Divine “puppet master”. (We MUST cooperate with grace)

The syllogism in your post 666 is a non-sequitur.

---

Baptized people CAN receive the Holy Spirit and get INTO the Vine (get into Jesus).

These same validly Baptized people may choose to NOT REMAIN in Jesus.

If they choose not to REMAIN IN JESUS (notice these guys are IN Jesus as John 15 explicitly says), they are cast aside and burned (unless they repent and come back to Jesus again).

If they remain cut off from the Vine (cut off from Jesus) they will end up in Hell and are thus among “The Reprobate”.

You can’t cut yourself off from Jesus if you were never in Him in the first place.

John 15 is concerning people who ARE or WERE . . . . IN JESUS. The verses explicitly say so.

---

Just because you are “born again” or baptized, does not mean you are among the Elect. Why? Because with free will you can CHOOSE to remove yourself from “The Vine”.

COUNCIL OF TRENT CANON XV If any one saith, that a man, who is born again and justified, is bound of faith to believe that he is assuredly in the number of the predestinate; let him be anathema.

COUNCIL OF TRENT CANON XVI If any one saith, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end,- unless he have learned this by special revelation; let him be anathema.

COUNCIL OF TRENT CANON XVII If any one saith, that the grace of Justification is only attained to by those who are predestined unto life; but that all others who are called, are called indeed, but receive not grace, as being, by the divine power, predestined unto evil; let him be anathema.