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Bookcat
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Discusses also Luthers idea of Faith Alone.
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drblank1
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I am VERY SORRY to respond to an older post but I have been traveling again.
James’ references an incident decades into Abraham’s walk with God (Isaac’s sacrifice).
Surely you’re not suggesting that Abraham wasn’t justified until this incident. That would contradict Paul.
Abraham believed God - Received salvation/started following God (Paul)
Abraham would sacrifice Isaac - Proof he was a true God-follower (James)
Right here in your quote, he is writing to his BROTHERS in Christ. How many times does he use the term “my brothers” or “my brethren” to address his audience? This letter is to Christ followers.
Your first point about Abraham, this is Paul’s analogy to becoming saved through faith in Jesus and thus uses the start of Abraham’s walk with God.
James’ references an incident decades into Abraham’s walk with God (Isaac’s sacrifice).
Surely you’re not suggesting that Abraham wasn’t justified until this incident. That would contradict Paul.
Abraham believed God - Received salvation/started following God (Paul)
Abraham would sacrifice Isaac - Proof he was a true God-follower (James)
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James248
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What difference does it make who James writes to?
And have you even considered what would happen to Abraham’s soul if he didn’t obey God?
Justification is a state one abides in; not an event which overlooks everything you do afterward. If that were the case, Christ Himself wouldn’t have given His parable on the Last Judgement, in which the basis of how one enters Heaven is charity.
It took you to post #707 to get here?
I will gladly contribute my lawn to your project.
In Christ’s name and for His sake, sure.
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drblank1
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Really??? For every book/passage/scripture studied, it is oh-so important to understand the audience, context, motivation, setting, etc… to better understand/interpret (with guidance from the Holy Spirit of course) the true meaning of the text. James is addressing his Jewish brethren in Christ. Thus he would not address salvation because the are already in Christ.
Who knows what kind of man he would have turned-out to be if he disobeyed God in this matter, but it would have had no bearing on his soul if he repented for disobeying God. God would have forgiven him. We all disobey God but thanks be to Jesus that we are no longer under Law but live in freedom. Have you ever considered what it means to be free in Christ and not be under religious rules and regulations? Do this or you sin! Don’t do that and you sin! Jesus didn’t die for legalism. He died for our freedom. That is our joy this world does not understand.
You cannot take one snippet of scripture and say entrance into Heaven is based on charity. If that is the case, then Jesus’ sacrifice was in vain and there are a lot of non-Christians in heaven because they were caring people on earth. Yes, then Jesus took our punishment for nothing.
Paul is clear. You cannot earn/merit salvation. Salvation is a free gift of God APART from works.
Paul uses justified in becoming saved. James uses justified a proof/evidence you are saved.
Being born-again is an event. Being adopted into God’s family is an event. Being sealed with the Holy Spirit is an event. Being selected before the foundation of the world is an event that is unstoppable by any measure.
Now, I’m not saying what we do hear on earth is not important. It is VERY important. We have a responsibility to further God’s kingdom. Some will be very obedient and some less. But in the end, we all will escape the fire. (1 Cor. 3:15)
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James248
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And one must remember that Paul wrote to Gentiles urging them to stay true to Christ and warned them that if they submitted to the Law of Moses, they would void their status as free in Christ. Context matters for Paul as well as James.
Answer the question. Don’t dodge it.
Being free in Christ means that we now have the means to be holy. God’s law to do unto others as we would have them do unto us is not voided because of Jesus’s death. Because we are free in Christ, we are free to do good. We are obliged to do good and not to break faith with God. Have you understood that?
If Catholics really believed that we merit salvation, we would baptize babies. But salvation is only for those who are in Christ, NOT outside of Him. Jesus is the vine, we are the branches. If we don’t bear fruit, He will cut us off from Him. Once we accept God, we enter into union with Him, but we lose this union anytime we break faith with God, In the same letter you quote from, Paul tells us not to look down on those who reject Christ, because we are merely branches that are grafted onto His tree. The same God who grafted us on can easily break us off if we fail to persevere in holiness.
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James248
Guest
]And one must remember that Paul wrote to Gentiles urging them to stay true to Christ and warned them that if they submitted to the Law of Moses, they would void their status as free in Christ. Context matters for Paul as well as James.
Answer the question. Don’t dodge it.
Being free in Christ means that we now have the means to be holy. God’s law to do unto others as we would have them do unto us is not voided because of Jesus’s death. Because we are free in Christ, we are free to do good. We are obliged to do good and not to break faith with God. Have you understood that?
If Catholics really believed that we merit salvation, we would not baptize babies. But salvation is only for those who are in Christ, NOT outside of Him. Jesus is the vine, we are the branches. If we don’t bear fruit, He will cut us off from Him. Once we accept God, we enter into union with Him, but we lose this union anytime we break faith with God, In the same letter you quote from, Paul tells us not to look down on those who reject Christ because we are merely branches that are grafted onto His tree. The same God who grafted us on can easily break us off if we fail to persevere in holiness. Not only must we believe in God, but we MUST make a conscious decision each day to turn away from sin.
Answer the question. Don’t dodge it.
Being free in Christ means that we now have the means to be holy. God’s law to do unto others as we would have them do unto us is not voided because of Jesus’s death. Because we are free in Christ, we are free to do good. We are obliged to do good and not to break faith with God. Have you understood that?
If Catholics really believed that we merit salvation, we would not baptize babies. But salvation is only for those who are in Christ, NOT outside of Him. Jesus is the vine, we are the branches. If we don’t bear fruit, He will cut us off from Him. Once we accept God, we enter into union with Him, but we lose this union anytime we break faith with God, In the same letter you quote from, Paul tells us not to look down on those who reject Christ because we are merely branches that are grafted onto His tree. The same God who grafted us on can easily break us off if we fail to persevere in holiness. Not only must we believe in God, but we MUST make a conscious decision each day to turn away from sin.
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ajcstr
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Taking Paul and James together implies (to Catholics at least) that justification is a process rather than a one time event. Viewing justification as a process in no way contradicts Paul.
Agreed when talking about the gift of initial justification which is what Paul is talking about in Ephesians 2. In Romans and Galatians, Paul is not talking about good works, he is referring to the laws that distinguish the Jews (circumcision, food laws). His point is that whether Jew or Greek its faith rather than the Jewish markers that justify.
James clearly states that we are justified by works and not by faith alone. This is the ONLY place the phrase “faith alone” appears in the NT.
In all fairness this is another case of using the same words when we mean different things. When a Catholic refers to justification, he is including sanctification.
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Bookcat
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Out for coffee.It took you to post #707 to get here?
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ajcstr
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Following up post 716
Justification… is not only the remission of sins but the sanctification and renewal of the interior man through the voluntary reception of grace and of the gifts, whereby from unjust man becomes just, and from enemy a friend… (Council of Trent, Decree on Justification, Chapter 7)
By giving birth to the “inner man,” justification entails the sanctification of his whole being … Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. (Catechism of the Catholic Church no. 1995, 2010)
Justification… is not only the remission of sins but the sanctification and renewal of the interior man through the voluntary reception of grace and of the gifts, whereby from unjust man becomes just, and from enemy a friend… (Council of Trent, Decree on Justification, Chapter 7)
By giving birth to the “inner man,” justification entails the sanctification of his whole being … Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. (Catechism of the Catholic Church no. 1995, 2010)
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drblank1
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Paul was telling the gentiles not to listen to the Judadizers. That salvation could not be earned in anyway under the law. And Paul was correct. Faith only saves. This still applies to anyone today who believes the law or works can in someway be a part of salvation.
Sorry my friend. I thought I answered it sufficiently but you are correct. There are two answers possible. I only gave one answer. If Abraham repented, his soul would have gone to the good side of Sheol. If he did not repent? From a Catholic view (I think), he would have gone to purgatory. From a biblical view, I believe he still would have gone to Heaven.
Freedom is Christ is much more than you describe. Israel was holy. Prior to Christ, anyone/everyone have the opportunity to love their neighbors.
Breaking faith? If someone who has been born-again is a new creation, they would not lose their faith. God made them a new creation which imparts a lasting faith. Falling into disobedience is not the same as unbelief.
I do believe in my previous post I address our obligation to further the Kingdom of God.
Salvation is available to everyone. But only Christians have it. Is that what you meant?
Jesus is the Vine, the Jewish people are the branches, and we are grafted branches. What He cuts off are the Jews who reject Jesus.
So from your Catholic viewpoint, your salvation is a process and you don’t fully have it yet? When are you adopted into God’s family? When are you sealed with the Holy Spirit? When are these promised given to you? When Jesus says we are His sheep and He will not lose one of us, when does that apply to ta Catholic? At death?
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drblank1
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For most Protestants, justification is at the time of salvation. Sanctification is God’s process of making us more like Jesus.
Remember to ask yourself this question: Who is James writing to why he writes “we are justified by works and not faith alone”? The term “we” is the key.
The Book of James is not a theological discourse to unbelievers but I practical guide to written specifically to Jewish Christians.
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ajcstr
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Of course he is speaking to Christians (who have already received the gift of initial justification). He does not use the “we” in 2:24 but that’s beside the point - just pointing it out. He also uses Abraham as an example and shows how he was justified by his works.
The scriptural gymnastics to show that “not by faith alone” really still means by faith alone are pretty interesting.
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drblank1
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Scriptural gymnastics??? Good one.
Besides coming to faith in Jesus, what are the works one must do to move from death into life? John 5:24, 1 John 3:14
God bless you
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James248
Guest
Yet one must also remain faithful to God and not deny Him, because if we deny Him, He’ll deny us. If we continue in sin, there is no longer a sacrifice for sin.
In Ezekiel, God tells us if a righteous man turns from good to bad, when he died God will not remember his good deeds. So if Abraham disobeyed God and didn’t repent, he’d end up in Hell.
What God told Ezekiel contradicts your sentiments. Grace ain’t cheap.
Do you believe if a person who is Christian fails to heed this command they are cast out into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels?
You have not explained him accurately in this regard.
What I believe about salvation is summed up in these verses:
John 15:1-4
“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me."
Romans 11:17-22
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. **They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. **Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
I believe these verses. Do you?
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drblank1
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The passage in Hebrews you reference is in regards to someone who has heard the truth and still rejects Jesus.
Ezekiel was under the Law.
You asked what would have happened to Abraham’s soul if he disobeyed God about sacrificing Isaac. Not if he turned evil.
Yep, Jesus paid the price in FULL for me and you. It couldn’t had been more expensive. And now we are under grace, not the Law.
If God selects us before the foundation of the world, that cannot and would not happen. That person was never an authentic born-again child of God. God doesn’t lose one of His children. Jesus told us so. Do you not believe Him?
Now don’t dodge my question.
Answer them directly. When do you receive those promises as a Catholic? As a Christian, I was granted them graciously by God when He saved me.I don’t believe them in the way you have interpreted them to mean.
You miss the point of these verses. God cuts off the branches of non-believers (meaning those Jew who rejected Jesus). Christians are pruned to produce more fruit. Those who don’t produce what they should, He prunes even more. When gentiles are “cut off” they are cut off from communion with God, not tossed aside. Continue on with Romans 11:23 - “And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.” See even if the Jews come to Jesus, they are not utterly cut off but only temporary, just like the Gentile Christian. Paul’s discourse here is on faith, not disobedience.
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James248
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Got any Patristic sources for that?
What God told Ezekiel matters regardless.
And? If you disobey God and you don’t repent you have sinned.
Yep, Jesus paid the price in FULL for me and you. It couldn’t had been more expensive. And now we are under grace, not the Law.
Got any biblical support for that?
When I was baptized, I became a son of God.How don’t dodge my question.
Fair enough.
, not disobedience.
It is you who do so. Jesus clearly states in the verses I quoted that the Father cuts of ANY branch that doesn’t bear fruit. He says two verses later that ANY branch that doesn’t bear fruit is cut off AND thrown into the fire, that is, Hell. And as for Paul, he says the same thing:
Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but **God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. ** So what Paul’s saying is clear: God will not graft you of if you remain faithful, but if you don’t persevere in His grace, He will break you off. I believe he had this in mind when he wore that Jesus’s sacrifice no longer covers us if we persist in sin.
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drblank1
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No. But when you interpret scripture using scripture (which is a far better source wouldn’t you agree) we know God will forgive the backslider. I John 1:9, Hebrews 7:25, Luke 15, Hosea 14:4, and many other passages.
Of course all the Bible matters. But does the Nazarite vow have an impact on our Christian life today. No. Just like what God told Ezekiel doesn’t impact our walk with Christ since we are now under Grace and not he Law.
Then one was never a Christian to begin.
And do you believe you can lose your sonship, gain in back again, lose it again, gain it back again, etc…?
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drblank1
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For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will…(Eph 1:4,5)
And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns. (Phil 1:6)
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. (Rom 8:30)
So you can see that when God chose us, He did it before Jesus created the world, He will continue the good work He started in us, and we will eventually be gloried. These are truths of the destiny of the authentic born-again Christian. Proof enough?
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