JW stopped by my house......

[dj_dave]

dj dave

Now, your next question…"If you believe that the Word is Jesus, and that nothing was made that He didn’t make, then how could Jesus have made Himself? Cont

(1 Corinthians 8:5-6) 5For even though there are those who are called “gods,” whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6there is actually to us one God the Father, **out **of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.

Now suppose we believe (Proverbs 8:22) Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. --is talking about Jesus.

…then “through” Jesus everything else was created.

God’s first creation (Rev 3:14) Do you see how 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 can mean that God ("*out of whom all things are") *created His Firstborn Son ("*Through whom all things are")*and used him to create the Heavens and all else?

Question…who or what do you believe was being discussed at Prov 8:22?

 

[dj_dave]

dj dave;5940712]

The Bible says the the sinner will die Ezk 18:4; "Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine The soul who sins will die…NOT fry…not fly-- DIE! Ps 13:3…It was Satan that said “You surley will not die!” Gen 3:4

When the first man, Adam, deliberately disobeyed God’s command, Jehovah said to him: “In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:19) Where was

Adam before Jehovah created him from the dust? Why, he was nowhere! He simply did not exist. So when Jehovah God said that Adam would “return to the ground,” he meant that Adam would die. Adam would not cross over to the spirit realm. At death he would once again become lifeless, nonexistent. His punishment was death—absence of life—not a transfer to another realm.—Romans 6:23.

What about others who have died? The condition of the dead is made clear at Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10, where we read: “The dead know nothing . . . There is no pursuit, no plan, no knowledge or intelligence, within the grave.” (Moffatt) Death, therefore, is a state of nonexistence. The psalmist wrote that when a person dies, “his spirit (breath) goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.”—Psalm 146:4.

Clearly, the dead are unconscious, inactive. They do not know anything. They cannot see you, hear you, or talk to you. They can neither help you nor harm you. You certainly need not fear the dead. (Ps 115:4-8 especially vs. 8) For my post on the “Rich man and the Beggar” see forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost…&postcount=124

Your post has shown me that you have sucumbed totaly to the erroneous teachings of the Watchtower bible and Tract Society.

Where in this post have I sucumbed “totaly to the erroneous teachings of the Watchtower bible and Tract Society” ?.

 

[Bob4BVM]

Now, your other Question: Where does the Bible teach that God’s name is JEHOVAH ?

God’s name appears eight times in the original Ten Commandments. (Exodus 20:1-17) Thus God himself has revealed his name to man both verbally and in writing. So, what is that name?

In the Hebrew language it is written יהוה. These four letters, called the Tetragrammaton, are read from right to left in Hebrew and can be represented in many modern languages as YHWH or JHVH. God’s name, represented by these four consonants, appears almost 7,000 times in the original “Old Testament,” or Hebrew Scriptures.

The name is a form of a Hebrew verb ha•wah′ (הוה), meaning “to become,” and actually signifies “He Causes to Become.” Thus, God’s name identifies him as the One who progressively fulfills his promises and unfailingly realizes his purposes. Only the true God could bear such a meaningful name.

The truth is, nobody knows for sure how the name of God was originally pronounced. Why not? Well, as we all know, the first language used in writing the Bible was Hebrew, and when the Hebrew language was written down, the writers wrote only consonants—not vowels. Hence, when the inspired writers wrote God’s name, they naturally did the same thing and wrote only the consonants.

While ancient Hebrew was an everyday spoken language, this presented no problem. The pronunciation of the Name was familiar to the Israelites and when they saw it in writing they supplied the vowels without thinking (just as, for an English reader, the abbreviation “Ltd.” represents “Limited” and “bldg.” represents “building”).

Two things happened to change this situation. First, a superstitious idea arose among the Jews that it was wrong to say the divine name out loud; so when they came to it in their Bible reading they uttered the Hebrew word ’Adho•nai′ (“Sovereign Lord”). Further, as time went by, the ancient Hebrew language itself ceased to be spoken in everyday conversation, and in this way the original Hebrew pronunciation of God’s name was eventually forgotten.

In order to ensure that the pronunciation of the Hebrew language as a whole would not be lost, Jewish scholars of the second half of the first millennium C.E. invented a system of points to represent the missing vowels, and they placed these around the consonants in the Hebrew Bible. Thus, both vowels and consonants were written down, and the pronunciation as it was at that time was preserved.

When it came to God’s name, instead of putting the proper vowel signs around it, in most cases they put other vowel signs to remind the reader that he should say ’Adho•nai′. From this came the spelling Iehouah, and, eventually, Jehovah became the accepted pronunciation of the divine name in English. This retains the essential elements of God’s name from the Hebrew original.

Cont.

You’re working pretty hard at this Dave, but may I suggest you check your of WTS literature ? :::>>
Your own JWs’ "Aid to Bible Understanding: says, “The first recorded use of this form [Jehovah] dates from the 13th century C.E. [after Christ]. Raymundus Martini, a Spanish monk of the Dominican order, used it in his book Pugeo Fidei of the year 1270. Hebrew scholars generally favor ‘Yahweh’ as the most likely pronunciation” (pp. 884-885). Did God change his name in 1300 ?

New Testament Greek always uses the word “Lord,” and never “Jehovah,” even in quotes from the Old Testament (OT). Encyclopedia Judaica, Webster’s Encyclopedia, Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Britannica, Universal Jewish Encyclopedia and countless others agree that the title “Jehovah” is erroneous, grammatically impossible, and was never used by the Jews.

 

[Bob4BVM]

dj dave;5940712]

The Bible says the the sinner will die Ezk 18:4; "Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine The soul who sins will die…NOT fry…not fly-- DIE! Ps 13:3…It was Satan that said “You surley will not die!” Gen 3:4

When the first man, Adam, deliberately disobeyed God’s command, Jehovah said to him: “In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:19) Where was

Adam before Jehovah created him from the dust? Why, he was nowhere! He simply did not exist. So when Jehovah God said that Adam would “return to the ground,” he meant that Adam would die. Adam would not cross over to the spirit realm. At death he would once again become lifeless, nonexistent. His punishment was death—absence of life—not a transfer to another realm.—Romans 6:23.

What about others who have died? The condition of the dead is made clear at Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10, where we read: “The dead know nothing . . . There is no pursuit, no plan, no knowledge or intelligence, within the grave.” (Moffatt) Death, therefore, is a state of nonexistence. The psalmist wrote that when a person dies, “his spirit (breath) goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.”—Psalm 146:4.

Clearly, the dead are unconscious, inactive. They do not know anything. They cannot see you, hear you, or talk to you. They can neither help you nor harm you. You certainly need not fear the dead. (Ps 115:4-8 especially vs. 8) For my post on the “Rich man and the Beggar” see forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost…&postcount=124

Where in this post have I sucumbed “totaly to the erroneous teachings of the Watchtower bible and Tract Society” ?.

If there is no soul, what was Jesus doing preaching in Hades ??? Yet another strong contradiction of the WTS doctrine is seen in Christ’s descent to Hades. In 1 Peter 3:19, the apostle tells his audience how Jesus “preached to the spirits in prison.” If the dead were aware of nothing, then his preaching would have been futile. In the OT, the prophet Isaiah speaks of the condition of the dead, "Sheol underneath has become agitated at you in order to meet you on coming in . . . all of them speak up and say. . . . Those seeing you will gaze even at you, saying . . . " (Is. 14:9-11). These verses indicate clearly that the dead are conscious, and the NT tells the same story. To be absent from the body is not to be unconscious, but rather it enables one to be home with the Lord, according to Paul (2 Cor. 5:8, Phil. 1:23). The body is just a tent, or tabernacle that does not last (2 Cor. 5:1-4; 2 Pet. 1:13), while man cannot kill the soul (Matt. 10:28). In fact, the souls live past the death of the bodies, since John "saw . . . the souls of those slaughtered . . . and they cried with a loud voice, saying . . . and they were told . . . " (Rev. 6:9-11). Because the soul does not die with the flesh, those in heaven are able to offer our prayers to God (Rev. 5:8), and live in happiness (Rev. 14:13).

But enough of the details Dave, can you please just tell us WHY you are so resistant to the idea of humans having an immortal soul ??? I am curious about that.

 

[Bob4BVM]

You’re working pretty hard at this Dave, but may I suggest you check your of WTS literature ? :::>>
Your own JWs’ "Aid to Bible Understanding: says, “The first recorded use of this form [Jehovah] dates from the 13th century C.E. [after Christ]. Raymundus Martini, a Spanish monk of the Dominican order, used it in his book Pugeo Fidei of the year 1270. Hebrew scholars generally favor ‘Yahweh’ as the most likely pronunciation” (pp. 884-885). Did God change his name in 1300 ?

New Testament Greek always uses the word “Lord,” and never “Jehovah,” even in quotes from the Old Testament (OT). Encyclopedia Judaica, Webster’s Encyclopedia, Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Britannica, Universal Jewish Encyclopedia and countless others agree that the title “Jehovah” is erroneous, grammatically impossible, and was never used by the Jews.

Also, your JW NWT bible translates the Greek word kurios (“Lord”) as “Jehovah” dozens of times in the NT, despite the fact that the word “Jehovah” is never used by any NT author.
ALSO---- we should ask why the NWT does not translate kurios as “Jehovah” in Romans 10:9, 1 Corinthians 12:3, Philippians 2:11, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, and Revelation 22:21. If it did translate kyrios consistently, then Jesus would be Jehovah!

 

[Bob4BVM]

dj dave;5940712:

How sad. You left the Church that is 2,000 years old and was founded by Jesus Christ, the Savior, our Messiah, the WORD made flesh to join a church 130 years old that was founded by Charles T. Russell, self appointed “spokesman” for God who made countless predictions, NONE of which came true.

Yes Yellowbird, sad but true, you said it all here .

Regarding predictions, I did some searching, here is a VERY abbreviated list, from actual JW literature…How can anyone trust an ‘authority’ that makes this many errors & retractions
Among other things, the WTS predicted the following: 1889 "The ‘battle of the great day of God almighty’ (Rev 16:14) which will end in AD 1914 . . . " (Studies, Vol. 2, 1908 edition, 101).

1891 “With the end of AD 1914, what God calls Babylon, and what men call Christendom, will have passed away, as already shown from prophecy” (Studies, Vol. 3, 153).

1894 “The end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble” (WT Reprints, 1-1-1894, 1605 and 1677).

1897 “Our Lord is now present, since October 1874 AD” (Studies, Vol. 4, 1897 edition, 621).

1916 “The six great 1000 year days beginning with Adam are ended, and that the great 7th day, the 1000 years of Christ’s reign began in 1873” (Studies, Vol. 2, p. 2 of foreword).

1917 “Scriptures . . . prove that the Lord’s Second Advent occurred in the fall of 1874” (Studies, Vol. 7, 68).

1918 “Therefore, we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the faithful prophets of old” (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 89).
1922 “The date 1925 is even more distinctly indicated by the scriptures than 1914” (WT, 9-1-1922, 262).

1923 “1925 is definitely settled by the scriptures. As to Noah, the Christian now has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had upon which to base his faith in a coming deluge” (WT, 4-1-1923, 106).

1925 “The year of 1925 is here. . . . Christians should not be so deeply concerned about what may transpire this year” (WT, 1-1-1925, 3).

1931 “There was a measure of disappointment on the part of Jehovah’s faithful ones on earth concerning the dates 1914, 1918, & 1925 . . . and they also learned to quit fixing dates” (Vindication, 388, 389).

1939 “The disaster of Armageddon is just ahead” (Salvation, 361).

1941 “Armageddon is surely near . . . soon . . . within a few years” (Children, 10).

1946 “Armageddon . . . should come sometime before 1972” (They Have Found a Faith, 44).

1966 “Six thousand years from man’s creation will end in 1975, and the seventh period of a thousand years of human history will begin in the fall of 1975 C.E” (Life Everlasting in Freedom of the Sons of God, 29).

1968 “The end of the six thousand years of man’s history in the fall of 1975 is not tentative, but is accepted as a certain date” (WT, 1-1-1968, 271).

 

[Bengoshi]

dj dave;5940712]

The Bible says the the sinner will die Ezk 18:4; "Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine The soul who sins will die…NOT fry…not fly-- DIE! Ps 13:3…It was Satan that said “You surley will not die!” Gen 3:4

When the first man, Adam, deliberately disobeyed God’s command, Jehovah said to him: “In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:19) Where was

Adam before Jehovah created him from the dust? Why, he was nowhere! He simply did not exist. So when Jehovah God said that Adam would “return to the ground,” he meant that Adam would die. Adam would not cross over to the spirit realm. At death he would once again become lifeless, nonexistent. His punishment was death—absence of life—not a transfer to another realm.—Romans 6:23.

What about others who have died? The condition of the dead is made clear at Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10, where we read: “The dead know nothing . . . There is no pursuit, no plan, no knowledge or intelligence, within the grave.” (Moffatt) Death, therefore, is a state of nonexistence. The psalmist wrote that when a person dies, “his spirit (breath) goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.”—Psalm 146:4.

Clearly, the dead are unconscious, inactive. They do not know anything. They cannot see you, hear you, or talk to you. They can neither help you nor harm you. You certainly need not fear the dead. (Ps 115:4-8 especially vs. 8) For my post on the “Rich man and the Beggar” see forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost…&postcount=124

Where in this post have I sucumbed “totaly to the erroneous teachings of the Watchtower bible and Tract Society” ?.

To all the JW’s out there…My heart bleeds for you! I have read your posts and all I can see are TWISTED interpretations of the biblical texts which are absolutely out of context, not to mention the heretical (diabolical) NWT the WTS has produced. It leads people astray! I just recently bought the new ESV (English Standard Version) Study Bible and so far it is definitely one of the best, if not THE BEST study Bible to have been ever produced! It contains commentaries and articles by excellent contemporary Bible scholars from across denominational lines. I suggest you buy this great Bible study tool. The ESV in itself is a very good “essentially literal” (formal equivalence) translation and add to that the excellent scholarship that went into its articles and commentaries.

 

[Javl]

djdave:
Thanks for your reponse, but I’m sorry, dj dave, your explanation really holds no water
and is fairly weak. In one instance you use scripture as literal when it should be symbolic and next you use it as symbolic when it is to be literal. There are many instances where the WBTS does this. For instance John 20:28 where Thomas calls Jesus God. The WBTS says that Thomas used that as an expression of surprise, but Thomas as an Orthodox Jew would never use that as an expression of surprise. He would have considered it blasphemy to do so, as do today’s jews. He knew exactly what he was saying. I can cite many other instances.

PAX DOMINI

 

[dj_dave]

To those people who are “Hung Up” on the fact that that the Bible doesn’t have the word “Trinity” in it. You are right it doesn’t have the word “Trinity” in it…but the Trinity is taught.

Second…the word “Bible” is not in the Bible either.

Third… “Sole Scripture” is not found in the Bible, (for those people who only want to refer to the “Printed Words” of the Bible. Before the Bible was made into a “Book” please remember Jesus**…taught by Oral and Tradition**…teaching. For Years there was no Bible for every person to use…

Having the word “Bible” in the Bible is a rather shallow argument for contrasting a teaching that is supposed to be the 'Primary Doctrine" of the Church.

About traditions:
The Greek word pa•ra′do•sis means, literally, “a thing given beside” and hence “that which is transmitted by word of mouth or in writing.” (1Co 11:2, Int) The word as used in the Christian Greek Scriptures is applied to traditions that were proper or acceptable aspects of true worship, as well as to those that were in error or were followed or viewed in a way that made them harmful and objectionable.

Over the centuries the Jews acquired many traditions. These included ways of dress and handling social matters such as weddings and burials. (Joh 2:1, 2; 19:40) Also, some aspects of Jewish worship in the first century C.E. were customary or traditional, like using wine in the Passover meal and celebrating the rededication of the temple. (Lu 22:14-18; Joh 10:22) Jesus and his apostles did not object to such, though they knew that those things were not required by the Law. When the synagogue became a common place of Jewish worship, it was custom or tradition to worship there each Sabbath. Luke says that Jesus also attended, “according to his custom.”—Lu 4:16.

Disapproved Traditions. The Jewish religious leaders, though, had added to the written Word many verbal traditions that they viewed as indispensable to true worship. Paul (Saul), as a Pharisee before his conversion to Christianity, was unusually zealous to follow the traditions of Judaism. These would, of course, include the unobjectionable ones as well as the bad ones. But by following the “commands of men as doctrines,” he was led to be a persecutor of Christians. (Mt 15:9) For instance, they ‘did not eat unless they washed their hands up to the elbow, holding fast the tradition of the men of former times.’ (Mr 7:3) Among those men, this practice was not for hygienic purposes, but it was a ceremonious ritual that supposedly had religious merit.

Christ showed that they had no basis for criticizing his disciples for not following that and other unnecessary “commands of men.” (Mt 15:1, 2, 7-11; Mr 7:4-8; Isa 29:13) Furthermore, by their tradition regarding “corban” (a gift dedicated to God) the religious leaders had made God’s Word invalid, overstepping the commandment of God.—Ex 20:12; 21:17; Mt 15:3-6; Mr 7:9-15;

Neither Jesus nor his disciples ever quoted oral Jewish tradition to support their teachings but, rather, appealed to the written Word of God. (Mt 4:4-10; Ro 15:4; 2Ti 3:15-17) Once the Christian congregation was established, observance of the unscriptural Jewish traditions amounted to a “fruitless form of conduct” that Jewish persons had ‘received by tradition from their forefathers [Gr., pa•tro•pa•ra•do′tou, “given along from fathers”].’ (1Pe 1:18) Upon becoming Christians, those Jews abandoned such traditions.

When some false teachers in Colossae urged taking up that form of worship, Paul warned against “the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men.” Evidently he meant, especially, the traditions of Judaism.—Col 2:8, 13-17.

Christian Traditions. Viewing tradition in the sense of guidelines handed down orally or by example, the information that the apostle Paul received directly from Jesus could properly be passed on to the Christian congregations as acceptable Christian tradition. This was so, for example, regarding the celebration of the Lord’s Evening Meal. (Last Supper) (1Co 11:2, 23) The teachings and example set by the apostles constituted valid tradition. Thus, Paul, who had personally toiled with his hands so as not to be a financial burden on his brothers (Ac 18:3; 20:34; 1Co 9:15; 1Th 2:9), could urge the Thessalonian Christians “to withdraw from every brother walking disorderly and not according to the tradition [pa•ra′do•sin]” they had received. One who would not work was plainly not following the fine example or tradition of the apostles.—2Th 3:6-11.

The “traditions” that are necessary for worship of God that is clean and undefiled were in time included as part of the inspired Scriptures. Hence, the traditions or precepts that were transmitted by Jesus and the apostles and that were vital for life were **not left in oral form to be distorted by the passage of time but were accurately recorded in the Bible for the benefit of Christians living at later periods.—**Joh 20:30, 31; Re 22:18.

Nowhere does the Bible say that Traditions would continue after it’s completion.

 

[Bob4BVM]

The “traditions” that are necessary for worship of God that is clean and undefiled were in time included as part of the inspired Scriptures. Hence, the traditions or precepts that were transmitted by Jesus and the apostles and that were vital for life were **not left in oral form to be distorted by the passage of time but were accurately recorded in the Bible for the benefit of Christians living at later periods.—**Joh 20:30, 31; Re 22:18.

Nowhere does the Bible say that Traditions would continue after it’s completion.

OH DAVE !

This would be laughable, were it not so sadly mis-led !
Do you REALLY BELIEVE that ALL precepts of the Faith a cast in stone in the Bible , and only there. Are you a Fudamentalist or a JW ?

What did those poor Christians do, pray tell, in the 400 years before the Bible as we know it was even compiled, or in the following 900 years before the printing press made Bible readily available ???

 

[Bob4BVM]

OH DAVE !

This would be laughable, were it not so sadly mis-led !
Do you REALLY BELIEVE that ALL precepts of the Faith a cast in stone in the Bible , and only there. Are you a Fudamentalist or a JW ?

What did those poor Christians do, pray tell, in the 400 years before the Bible as we know it was even compiled, or in the following 900 years before the printing press made Bible readily available ???

And beyond that, the continuous revelation of the meaning of God’s Word thru the teaching of the Holy Spirit ???
Does the NWT mention Christ’s words: “I will send you the Holy Spirit, and He will teach you all things.”

 

[Bob4BVM]

Having the word “Bible” in the Bible is a rather shallow argument for contrasting a teaching that is supposed to be the 'Primary Doctrine" of the Church.

About traditions:
The Greek word pa•ra′do•sis means, literally, “a thing given beside” and hence “that which is transmitted by word of mouth or in writing.” (1Co 11:2, Int) The word as used in the Christian Greek Scriptures is applied to traditions that were proper or acceptable aspects of true worship, as well as to those that were in error or were followed or viewed in a way that made them harmful and objectionable.

Dave,
You are sure good at Greek and other biblical languages.
Maybe you can get on the committee the next time the WTS decides to re-write the Bible.
Are you aware that when the WTS created your UNIQUE ‘bible’, they could have used some more expertise in linguistics ?
When the New World Translation (NWT), the JWs’ own Bible version, was created between 1950-61 in several parts, beginning with New Testament (NT). The translation was made by an “anonymous” committee, which transliterated and altered passages that were problematic for earlier JWs. Nathan Knorr, Fred Franz, Albert Schroeder, George Gangas, and Milton Henschel were later identified as the men that created the text, which is USED BY NO OTHER SECT. Franz studied non-biblical Greek for two years, and taught himself Hebrew. The rest had no formal training in any biblical language.

The text of the NWT is more of a transliteration to fit theological presumptions than it is a true translation.
This can be seen in key verses that the WTS changed in order to fit its doctrines.

 

[Bob4BVM]

How much of scripture is man willing to disregard in the search for a faith which is acceptable to him?

 

[Javl]

dj dave;5947452:

Having the word “Bible” in the Bible is a rather shallow argument for contrasting a teaching that is supposed to be the 'Primary Doctrine" of the Church.

About traditions:
The Greek word pa•ra′do•sis means, literally, “a thing given beside” and hence “that which is transmitted by word of mouth or in writing.” (1Co 11:2, Int) The word as used in the Christian Greek Scriptures is applied to traditions that were proper or acceptable aspects of true worship, as well as to those that were in error or were followed or viewed in a way that made them harmful and objectionable.

Dave,
You are sure good at Greek and other biblical languages.
Maybe you can get on the committee the next time the WTS decides to re-write the Bible.
Are you aware that when the WTS created your UNIQUE ‘bible’, they could have used some more expertise in linguistics ?
When the New World Translation (NWT), the JWs’ own Bible version, was created between 1950-61 in several parts, beginning with New Testament (NT). The translation was made by an “anonymous” committee, which transliterated and altered passages that were problematic for earlier JWs. Nathan Knorr, Fred Franz, Albert Schroeder, George Gangas, and Milton Henschel were later identified as the men that created the text, which is USED BY NO OTHER SECT. Franz studied non-biblical Greek for two years, and taught himself Hebrew. The rest had no formal training in any biblical language.

The text of the NWT is more of a transliteration to fit theological presumptions than it is a true translation.
This can be seen in key verses that the WTS changed in order to fit its doctrines.

And not to mention their ignoring of the correct method of parsing sentences. This
commitee ignored all legitimate methods of a scholarly translation of the Koine Greek
( They probably used modern day Greek to translate ). They mutilated the scriptures to
fit their brand of theology.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[dj_dave]

dj dave;5947452:

Having the word “Bible” in the Bible is a rather shallow argument for contrasting a teaching that is supposed to be the 'Primary Doctrine" of the Church.

About traditions:
The Greek word pa•ra′do•sis means, literally, “a thing given beside” and hence “that which is transmitted by word of mouth or in writing.” (1Co 11:2, Int) The word as used in the Christian Greek Scriptures is applied to traditions that were proper or acceptable aspects of true worship, as well as to those that were in error or were followed or viewed in a way that made them harmful and objectionable.

Dave,
You are sure good at Greek and other biblical languages.
Maybe you can get on the committee the next time the WTS decides to re-write the Bible.
Are you aware that when the WTS created your UNIQUE ‘bible’, they could have used some more expertise in linguistics ?
When the New World Translation (NWT), the JWs’ own Bible version, was created between 1950-61 in several parts, beginning with New Testament (NT). The translation was made by an “anonymous” committee, which transliterated and altered passages that were problematic for earlier JWs. Nathan Knorr, Fred Franz, Albert Schroeder, George Gangas, and Milton Henschel were later identified as the men that created the text, which is USED BY NO OTHER SECT. Franz studied non-biblical Greek for two years, and taught himself Hebrew. The rest had no formal training in any biblical language.

The text of the NWT is more of a transliteration to fit theological presumptions than it is a true translation.
This can be seen in key verses that the WTS changed in order to fit its doctrines.

You all seem to be forgetting that we will use anyone’s Bible in our Earthwide Bible Study program…Also, that there are many other Bible versions that agree with our rendering of John 1:1, and other scriptures.

Please quit harping on the NWT it does nothing to add to your arguments. I have 14 Bible versions. I use them all at one time or another. BTW who was the committee that translated the KJV? Who cares? There are so many Lexicons out there ANYONE can see what the original Greek said these days. I have found that just about every scripture has a 2nd witness to it. Therefore Jehovah’s Witnesses can use anyone’s Bible to teach what they teach. If questions arise then we take the time to do research with the student at the local library…We do not as some would believe force anyone into accepting what we teach.

We merely state our belief, back it up with with what we believe are scriptures that support it, and let the students decide if it has the ‘ring of truth’ or not. We heartily welcome questions even controversial ones.

Now regarding …* “your JW NWT bible translates the Greek word kurios (“Lord”) as “Jehovah” dozens of times in the NT, despite the fact that the word “Jehovah” is never used by any NT author*.”

CONT.

 

[dj_dave]

Now regarding …* “your JW NWT bible translates the Greek word kurios (“Lord”) as “Jehovah” dozens of times in the NT, despite the fact that the word “Jehovah” is never used by any NT author*.”

CONT

the Tetragrammaton in Hebrew characters (יהוה) was used in both the Hebrew text and the Greek Septuagint. Therefore, whether Jesus and his disciples read the Scriptures in either Hebrew or Greek, they would come across the divine name. In the synagogue at Nazareth, when Jesus rose and accepted the book of Isaiah and read 61:1, 2 where the Tetragrammaton occurs twice, he pronounced the divine name. This was in accordance with his determination to make Jehovah’s name known as can be seen from his prayer to his Father: “I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world. . . . I have made your name known to them and will make it known.”—Joh 17:6, 26.

There is evidence that Jesus’ disciples used the Tetragrammaton in their writings. In his work De viris inlustribus [Concerning Illustrious Men], chapter III, Jerome, in the fourth century, wrote the following: “Matthew, who is also Levi, and who from a publican came to be an apostle, first of all composed a Gospel of Christ in Judaea in the Hebrew language and characters for the benefit of those of the circumcision who had believed. Who translated it after that in Greek is not sufficiently ascertained. Moreover, the Hebrew itself is preserved to this day in the library at Caesarea, which the martyr Pamphilus so diligently collected. I also was allowed by the Nazarenes who use this volume in the Syrian city of Beroea to copy it.” (Translation from the Latin text edited by E. C. Richardson and published in the series “Texte und Untersuchungen zur Geschichte der altchristlichen Literatur,” Vol. 14, Leipzig, 1896, pp. 8, 9.)

Matthew made more than a hundred quotations from the inspired Hebrew Scriptures. Where these quotations included the divine name he would have been obliged faithfully to include the Tetragrammaton in his Hebrew Gospel account. When the Gospel of Matthew was translated into Greek, the Tetragrammaton was left untranslated within the Greek text according to the practice of that time.

Not only Matthew but all the writers of the Christian Greek Scriptures quoted verses from the Hebrew text or from the Septuagint where the divine name appears. For example, in Peter’s speech in Ac 3:22 a quotation is made from De 18:15 where the Tetragrammaton appears in a papyrus fragment of the Septuagint dated to the first century B.C.E. (See App 1C §1.) As a follower of Christ, Peter used God’s name, Jehovah. When Peter’s speech was put on record the Tetragrammaton was here used according to the practice during the first century B.C.E. and the first century C.E.

Sometime during the second or third century C.E. the scribes removed the Tetragrammaton from both the Septuagint and the Christian Greek Scriptures and replaced it with Ky′ri•os, “Lord” or The•os′, “God.”

Concerning the use of the Tetragrammaton in the Christian Greek Scriptures, George Howard of the University of Georgia wrote in Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 96, 1977, p. 63: “Recent discoveries in Egypt and the Judean Desert allow us to see first hand the use of God’s name in pre-Christian times. These discoveries are significant for N[ew] T[estament] studies in that they form a literary analogy with the earliest Christian documents and may explain how NT authors used the divine name. In the following pages we will set forth a theory that the divine name, יהוה (and possibly abbreviations of it), was originally written in the NT quotations of and allusions to the O[ld] T[estament] and that in the course of time it was replaced mainly with the surrogate [abbreviation for Ky′ri•os, “Lord”]. This removal of the Tetragram[maton], in our view, created a confusion in the minds of early Gentile Christians about the relationship between the ‘Lord God’ and the ‘Lord Christ’ which is reflected in the MS tradition of the NT text itself.”

*** Rbi8 p. 1565 1D The Divine Name in the Christian Greek Scriptures ***
We have looked for agreement from the Hebrew versions to confirm our rendering. Thus, out of the 237 times that we have rendered the divine name in the body of our translation, there is only one instance where we have no agreement from the Hebrew versions. But in this one instance, namely, 1Co 7:17, the context and related texts strongly support rendering the divine name.—See 1Co 7:17 ftn, “Jehovah.”

 

[dj_dave]

*** Rbi8 p. 1565 1D The Divine Name in the Christian Greek Scriptures ***
We have looked for agreement from the Hebrew versions to confirm our rendering. Thus, out of the 237 times that we have rendered the divine name in the body of our translation, there is only one instance where we have no agreement from the Hebrew versions. But in this one instance, namely, 1Co 7:17, the context and related texts strongly support rendering the divine name.—See 1Co 7:17 ftn, “Jehovah.”

HERE SOME OF THE MANUSCRIPTS WE USED TO PUT TOGETHER THE NWT*** Rbi8 pp. 9-11 Introduction ***

TEXTUAL SYMBOLS: Throughout our footnotes, when giving textual information, it has been necessary to refer to many early manuscripts and papyruses, codices, printed editions, and recent authoritative publications. Following is a chart of the major symbols that are referenced in the footnotes of this publication. (The New World Translation)

א (’Aleph) Codex Sinaiticus, Gr., fourth cent. C.E., British Museum, H.S., G.S.
A Codex Alexandrinus, Gr., fifth cent. C.E., British Museum, H.S., G.S.
ad Aid to Bible Understanding, Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, Brooklyn, 1971.
Al Aleppo Codex, Heb., c. 930 C.E., Israel, H.S.
Aq Aquila’s Gr. translation of H.S., second cent. C.E., Cambridge, England.
Arm Armenian Version, fourth to thirteenth cent. C.E.; H.S., G.S.
B Vatican ms 1209, Gr., fourth cent. C.E., Vatican City, Rome, H.S., G.S.
B 19A See Leningrad.
Bauer A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, by W. Bauer, second English ed., by F. W. Gingrich and F. W. Danker, Chicago and London (1979).
BDB Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, by Brown, Driver and Briggs, Oxford, 1978 reprint.
BHK Biblia Hebraica, by Kittel, Kahle, Alt and Eissfeldt, Privilegierte Württembergische Bibelanstalt, Stuttgart, seventh to ninth ed., 1951-55, H.S.
BHS Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia, by Elliger and Rudolph, Deutsche Bibelstiftung, Stuttgart, 1977, H.S.
C Codex Ephraemi rescriptus, Gr., fifth cent. C.E., Paris, H.S., G.S.
Ca Cairo Codex, Heb., 895 C.E., Cairo, Egypt, H.S.
D Bezae Codices, Gr. and Lat., fifth and sixth cent. C.E., Cambridge, England, G.S.
Gins. Massoretico-Critical Text of the Hebrew Bible, by C. D. Ginsburg, London, 1926.
Gins.Int Introduction to the Massoretico-Critical Edition of the Hebrew Bible, by C. D. Ginsburg, Ktav Publishing House, New York, 1966 reprint.
Gins.Mas The Massorah, by C. D. Ginsburg, Ktav Publishing House, New York, 1975 reprint.
GK Gesenius’ Hebrew Grammar, by E. Kautzsch and A. E. Cowley, Oxford, England (1910).
Grn The Interlinear Hebrew/English Bible, Vol. I-III, by J. Green, Wilmington, U.S., 1976.
Int The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures, Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, Brooklyn, 1969, a word-for-word rendering from Greek into English.
It Old Latin Versions, Itala, second to fourth cent. C.E.; H.S., G.S.
J1 Matthew, Heb., edited by J. du Tillet, with a Lat. translation by J. Mercier, Paris, 1555.
J2 Matthew, Heb., incorporated as a separate chapter in ’E′ven bo′chan “Tried Stone”], by Shem-Tob ben Isaac Ibn Shaprut, 1385. Mss of 16th and 17th cent., Jewish Theological Seminary, New York.
J3 Matthew and Hebrews, Heb. and Lat., by Sebastian Münster, Basel, 1537 and 1557 respectively.
J4 Matthew, Heb., by J. Quinquarboreus, Paris, 1551.
J5 Liturgical Gospels, Heb., by F. Petri, Wittemberg, 1573.
J6 Liturgical Gospels, German, Lat., Gr. and Heb., by Johann Clajus, Leipzig, 1576.
J7 Christian Greek Scriptures in 12 languages, including Heb., by Elias Hutter, Nuremberg, 1599.
J8 Christian Greek Scriptures, Heb., by William Robertson, London, 1661.
J9 Gospels, Heb. and Lat., by Giovanni Battista Jona, Rome, 1668.
J10 The New Testament . . . in Hebrew and English, by Richard Caddick, Vol. I-III, containing Matthew—1 Corinthians, London, 1798-1805.
J11 Christian Greek Scriptures, Heb., by Thomas Fry and others, London, 1817.
J12 Christian Greek Scriptures, Heb., by William Greenfield, London, 1831.
J13 Christian Greek Scriptures, Heb., by A. McCaul, M. S. Alexander, J. C. Reichardt and S. Hoga, London, 1838.
J14 Christian Greek Scriptures, Heb., by J. C. Reichardt, London, 1846.
J15 Luke, Acts, Romans and Hebrews, Heb., by J. H. R. Biesenthal, Berlin, 1855, 1867, 1853 and 1858 respectively.
J16 Christian Greek Scriptures, Heb., by J. C. Reichardt and J. H. R. Biesenthal, London, 1866.
J17 Christian Greek Scriptures, Heb., by Franz Delitzsch, London, 1981 ed.
J18 Christian Greek Scriptures, Heb., by Isaac Salkinson and C. D. Ginsburg, London.
J19 John, Heb., by Moshe I. Ben Maeir, Denver, Colorado, 1957.
J20 A Concordance to the Greek Testament, by W. F. Moulton and A. S. Geden, fourth ed., Edinburgh, 1963.

Cont

 

[dj_dave]

dj_dave:
HERE SOME OF THE MANUSCRIPTS WE USED TO PUT TOGETHER THE NWT*** Rbi8 pp. 9-11 Introduction ***

J20 A Concordance to the Greek Testament, by W. F. Moulton and A. S. Geden, fourth ed., Edinburgh, 1963.

Cont

J21 The Emphatic Diaglott (Greek-English interlinear), by Benjamin Wilson, New York, 1864, reprint by Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, Brooklyn, 1942.
J22 Christian Greek Scriptures, Heb., by United Bible Societies, Jerusalem, 1979.
J23 Christian Greek Scriptures, Heb., by J. Bauchet, Rome, 1975.
J24 A Literal Translation of the New Testament . . . From the Text of the Vatican Manuscript, by Herman Heinfetter, London, 1863.
J25 St. Paul’s Epistle to the Romans, by W. G. Rutherford, London, 1900.
J26 Psalms and Matthew 1:1-3:6, Heb., by Anton Margaritha, Leipzig, 1533.
J27 Die heilige Schrift des neuen Testaments, by Dominik von Brentano, third ed., Vienna and Prague, 1796.
JTS Journal of Theological Studies, Clarendon, Oxford.
KB Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros, by L. Koehler and W. Baumgartner, Leiden, Netherlands, 1953.
KB3 Hebräisches und Aramäisches Lexikon zum Alten Testament, by W. Baumgartner, third ed., Leiden, Netherlands, 1967 and later ed.
Leningrad Codex Leningrad B 19A, Heb., 1008 C.E., H.S., Saltykov-Shchedrin State Public Library, Leningrad, U.S.S.R.
LS A Greek-English Lexicon, by H. Liddell and R. Scott, Oxford, 1968.
LXX Septuagint, Gr., third and second cent. B.C.E., H.S. (A. Rahlfs, Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft, Stuttgart, 1935).
LXXא See א.
LXXA See A.
LXXB See B.
LXXBagster Septuagint (with an English translation by Sir Lancelot Brenton, S. Bagster & Sons, London, 1851).
LXXL Septuagint (P. de Lagarde, Göttingen, Germany, 1883).
LXXThomson Septuagint, translated by C. Thomson, Pells ed., London, 1904.
M Masoretic Hebrew text found in Codex Leningrad B 19A as presented in BHK and BHS.
NW New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, Brooklyn, 1984 revision.
P45 Papyrus Chester Beatty 1, Gr., third cent. C.E., Dublin, G.S.
P46 Papyrus Chester Beatty 2, Gr., c. 200 C.E., Dublin, Ann Arbor, Michigan, U.S.A., G.S.
P47 Papyrus Chester Beatty 3, Gr., third cent. C.E., Dublin, G.S.
P66 Papyrus Bodmer 2, Gr., c. 200 C.E., Geneva, G.S.
P74 Papyrus Bodmer 17, Gr., seventh cent. C.E., Geneva, G.S.
P75 Papyrus Bodmer 14, 15, Gr., c. 200 C.E., Geneva, G.S.
1QIsa The Dead Sea Scroll of Isaiah, Jerusalem, found in 1947 in Qumran Cave No. 1.
Sam Pentateuch in Samaritan, fourth cent. B.C.E., Israel.
si “All Scripture Is Inspired of God and Beneficial,” Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, Brooklyn, 1963.
Sn Hebrew Old Testament, by N. H. Snaith, Israel, 1970.
Sy, Syp Syriac Peshitta, Christian Aram., fifth cent. C.E., S. Lee, London, 1826, reprint by United Bible Societies, 1979.
Syc Curetonian Syriac, Old Syriac, fifth cent. C.E., Gospels, Cambridge, England.
Syh Philoxenian-Harclean Syriac Version, sixth and seventh cent. C.E.; G.S.
Syhi Jerusalem (Hierosolymitanum) Version, Old Syriac, sixth cent. C.E.; G.S.
Sys Sinaitic Syriac codex, fourth and fifth cent. C.E., Gospels.
Sym Greek translation of H.S., by Symmachus, c. 200 C.E.
T Targums, Aram. paraphrases of parts of H.S.
TJ Jerusalem Targum I (Pseudo-Jonathan) and Jerusalem Targum II (Fragmentary Targum).
TO Targum of Onkelos (Babylonian Targum), Pentateuch.
TP Palestinian Targum, Vatican City, Rome, Pentateuch.
TDOT Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament (English ed.), Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, U.S.A., 1974 and later ed.
TDNT Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (English ed.), Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, U.S.A., 1964 and later ed.
Th Greek translation of H.S., by Theodotion, second cent. C.E.
TR Textus Receptus (Received Text) of G.S., by R. Stephanus, 1550.
Vg Latin Vulgate, by Jerome, c. 400 C.E. (Iuxta Vulgatam Versionem, Württembergische Bibelanstalt, Stuttgart, 1975).
Vgc Latin Vulgate, Clementine recension (S. Bagster & Sons, London, 1977).
Vgs Latin Vulgate, Sixtine recension, 1590.
Vgww Novum Testamentum Latine secundum editionem Sancti Hieronymi ad Codicum Manuscriptorum Fidem, by J. Wordsworth and H. J. White, Oxford, 1911.
VT Vetus Testamentum, E. J. Brill, Leiden, Netherlands.
W Freer Gospels, fifth cent. C.E., Washington, D.C.
WH The New Testament in the Original Greek, by Westcott and Hort, 1948 ed. (reprinted in Int).
ZorellGr Lexicon Graecum Novi Testamenti, third ed., by F. Zorell, Paris, 1961.
ZorellHeb Lexicon Hebraicum et Aramaicum Veteris Testamenti, by F. Zorell, Rome, 1968.

•   Reading of the original (first) hand of a Greek manuscript.

c Reading of any corrector of a Greek manuscript.

All of these references can be found in the front of our Study Version. In short we do not try to hide our reference material from anyone.

 

[dj_dave]

If there is no soul, what was Jesus doing preaching in Hades ??? Yet another strong contradiction of the WTS doctrine is seen in Christ’s descent to Hades. In 1 Peter 3:19, the apostle tells his audience how Jesus “preached to the spirits in prison.” If the dead were aware of nothing, then his preaching would have been futile. In the OT, the prophet Isaiah speaks of the condition of the dead, "Sheol underneath has become agitated at you in order to meet you on coming in . . . all of them speak up and say. . . . Those seeing you will gaze even at you, saying . . . " (Is. 14:9-11). These verses indicate clearly that the dead are conscious, and the NT tells the same story. To be absent from the body is not to be unconscious, but rather it enables one to be home with the Lord, according to Paul (2 Cor. 5:8, Phil. 1:23). The body is just a tent, or tabernacle that does not last (2 Cor. 5:1-4; 2 Pet. 1:13), while man cannot kill the soul (Matt. 10:28). In fact, the souls live past the death of the bodies, since John "saw . . . the souls of those slaughtered . . . and they cried with a loud voice, saying . . . and they were told . . . " (Rev. 6:9-11). Because the soul does not die with the flesh, those in heaven are able to offer our prayers to God (Rev. 5:8), and live in happiness (Rev. 14:13).

But enough of the details Dave, can you please just tell us WHY you are so resistant to the idea of humans having an immortal soul ??? I am curious about that.

I have already addressed this to a morman…

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
Dead means dead, not just wicked spirits. Furthermore, 1 Peter 3:19–20 actually tells us who those “spirits” were to whom the gospel was preached:

1 Peter 3:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.END QUOTE

What does 1 Peter 3:19, 20 mean? “In this state [in the spirit, following his resurrection] also he [Jesus] went his way and preached to the spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days, while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls “souls,” KJ, Dy; “people,” TEV, JB; “persons,” RS], were carried safely through the water.” (Were those “spirits in prison” the souls of the humans who had refused to take heed to Noah’s preaching before the Flood, and was the way now open for them to go to heaven? **Comparison of 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6 with Genesis 6:2-4 shows that these spirits were angelic sons of God that had materialized and married in Noah’s day. **

At 1Peter 3:19,20 the Greek word for “spirits” is pneu′ma·sin, while the wordrendered “souls” is psy·khai′. The “spirits” were not disembodied*souls but disobedient angels; the “souls” here referred to were living people, humans, Noah and his household. What was preached to “spirits in prison” must therefore have been a message of judgment.) WHY WOULD THEY CALL IT A PRISON? also, why single out just these? Why not the ones that also died at Sodom and Gomorrah? What about ALL of those that have died before Jesus came to earth?

What is the meaning of 1*Peter 4:6? “In fact, for this purpose the good news was declared also to the dead, that they might be judged as to the flesh from the standpoint of men but might live as to the spirit from the standpoint of God.” (Were these “dead” the people who had died prior to the death of Christ? As already shown, the dead are not “the spirits in prison.” Those spirits were disobedient angels. And preaching would not have benefited physically dead humans because, as Ecclesiastes 9:5 says, they “are conscious of nothing at all,” and Psalm 146:4 adds that at death a person’s “thoughts do perish.” But Ephesians 2:1-7 17 does refer to persons who were spiritually dead and who came to life spiritually as a result of accepting the good news.)

Ephesians 2:1-7, *But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love with which he loved us, 5 made us alive together with the Christ, even when we were dead in trespasses—by undeserved kindness YOU have been saved— 6 and he raised us up together and seated us together in the heavenly places in union with Christ Jesus, 7 that in the coming systems of things there might be demonstrated the surpassing riches of his undeserved kindness in his graciousness toward us in union with Christ Jesus.

Further,
The death state is used to illustrate the spiritually dead condition of the world in general, so Jesus could speak of ‘the dead burying the dead,’ and the apostle Paul could refer to the woman living for sensual gratification as “dead though she is living.” (Lu 9:60; 1Ti 5:6; Eph 2:1) And since physical death discharges one from any debts or obligations existing up to that time (Ro 6:7), a Christian’s being freed or liberated from sin (Ro 6:2, 11) and from the condemnation of the Mosaic Law (Ro 7:2-6) is also likened to death, such one having ‘died’ to his former situation and obligations. The one figuratively dying in such a way, of course, is still alive physically and is now free to follow Christ as a slave to righteousness.—Ro 6:18-20; Ga 5:1.

Your next comment: "In the OT, the prophet Isaiah speaks of the condition of the dead, "Sheol underneath has become agitated at you in order to meet you on coming in . . . all of them speak up and say. . . . Those seeing you will gaze even at you, saying . . . " (Is. 14:9-11). These verses indicate clearly that the dead are conscious, and the NT tells the same story.

These verses are poetic. Consider the context: Continued…*

 

[dj_dave]

Your next comment: "In the OT, the prophet Isaiah speaks of the condition of the dead, "Sheol underneath has become agitated at you in order to meet you on coming in . . . all of them speak up and say. . . . Those seeing you will gaze even at you, saying . . . " (Is. 14:9-11). These verses indicate clearly that the dead are conscious, and the NT tells the same story.

These verses are poetic. Consider the context:…

“The whole earth has come to rest, has become free of disturbance. People have become cheerful with joyful cries. Even the juniper trees have also rejoiced at you, the cedars of Lebanon, saying, ‘Ever since you have lain down, no woodcutter comes up against us.’” (Isaiah 14:7, 8) The kings of the nations round about were, to Babylon’s rulers, like trees to be cut down and used for their own purposes. Well, all of that is finished. The Babylonian woodcutter has cut his last tree!

So astonishing is the fall of Babylon that the grave itself reacts: “Even Sheol underneath has become agitated at you in order to meet you on coming in. At you it has awakened those impotent in death, all the goatlike leaders of the earth. It has made all the kings of the nations get up from their thrones. All of them speak up and say to you, ‘Have you yourself also been made weak like us? Is it to us that you have been made comparable? Down to Sheol your pride has been brought, the din of your stringed instruments. Beneath you, maggots are spread out as a couch; and worms are your covering.’” (Isaiah 14:9-11) What a powerful poetic image! It is as if the common grave of mankind were to wake up all those kings who preceded the Babylonian dynasty into death so that they can greet the newcomer. They mock the Babylonian ruling power, which is now helpless, lying on a bed of maggots instead of on a costly divan, covered with worms instead of expensive linens.

The grave and the trees are talking! Isaiah uses this kind of poetic writing quite often.

“These verses indicate clearly that the dead are conscious, and the NT tells the same story”…

in view of the foregoing, I respecfully disagree