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inJESUS
Guest
well actually some Muslims believe it was Gabriel who breathed life into Mary…obviously very similar…
- Status
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inJESUS
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Hellisreal
Guest
Well, at least the JW bible (different than any other translation- but that’s another topic)
reads like ours in regard to Mary, at least I think so,.
In Jesus, got to watchtower.org if you want to see their bible too.
There is more, much more!
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inJESUS
Guest
i will study more about this religion but at least i expect its members to respond to clear scripture to see where they are coming from…so Jesus is saying : touch me,…i am no spirit. But Jw understand that He is saying He is spirit? i mean one can be willing to go deeper into his studies but not if this is the level of arguments when a no becomes a yes.
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Hellisreal
Guest
Wait a tooting minute here! Bible Steve has read over 51 translations of the Bible!
Where have you been?
Missed the threads on that one?
You have no idea how complex this will get. Please study it- its in your area now too!!!
Be ready to witness to the JW’s!
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inJESUS
Guest
Am staying in this thread 
i wasn’t interested in JW cuz i never met one in my life but now i am out of curiosity
i wasn’t interested in JW cuz i never met one in my life but now i am out of curiosity
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Jaypeeto4
Guest
**Why did Thomas say, My Lord and My God?
Jesus really slipped up on that one!
He ought to have corrected Thomas, and fast!**
Not ONLY THAT, but since the Gospel of John is an account of what happened 50 to 70 years EARLIER, which John is RECOUNTING, JOHN HIMSELF should have clarified that Jesus was not saying he was of the same essence as the Father,
especially since, as history shows, the Jesus-as-God belief was widespread !! John should have taken extra care in his Gospel to explain that Jesus was NOT deity and should have explained that Jesus and Michael were the same person, especially since he
(John) had been allegedly preaching that very thing since 33 A.D.
( or 33 C.E. if you prefer).
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+
Jesus really slipped up on that one!
He ought to have corrected Thomas, and fast!**
Not ONLY THAT, but since the Gospel of John is an account of what happened 50 to 70 years EARLIER, which John is RECOUNTING, JOHN HIMSELF should have clarified that Jesus was not saying he was of the same essence as the Father,
especially since, as history shows, the Jesus-as-God belief was widespread !! John should have taken extra care in his Gospel to explain that Jesus was NOT deity and should have explained that Jesus and Michael were the same person, especially since he
(John) had been allegedly preaching that very thing since 33 A.D.
( or 33 C.E. if you prefer).
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+
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inJESUS
Guest
ok so the Trinity is wrong because it is not in the Bible. Where does the Bible say that Jesus is Michael or whoever? where does the Bible say Jesus rose as a spirit and NOT spiritual body?
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Hellisreal
Guest
I know you got this one down, Jaypeeto- you and Jeff Schwem are very spot on and strong defenders of Jesus Christ.
I did ask about what charges Jesus was faced with and I think I know what the response will be from the JW camp.
I mean, lets think about what led up to Jesus being on the Cross or (JWs insist- stake)
Lets go back a bit, and ask why he ended up in such hot water with the Jewish leaders of that time…
Blasphemy?
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Delraek
Guest
Hi BibleSteve,
The “Son of Man” reference that Jesus uses is from the book of Daniel:
13 "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
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BibleSteve
Guest
After Jesus’ resurrection he appeared in different bodies. Mary mistook him for the gardener. (Joh 20:14, 15) He again appeared, entering a room with locked doors, having a body with wound marks. (Joh 20:24-29) Several times he manifested himself and was recognized, not by his appearance, but by his words and actions. (Lu 24:15, 16, 30, 31, 36-45; Mt 28:16-18) Once a miracle performed at his direction opened his disciples’ eyes to his identity. (Joh 21:4-7, 12) Jesus, having been resurrected as a spirit (1Pe 3:18), could materialize a body for the occasion as the angels did in past times, when they appeared as messengers. (Ge 18:2; 19:1, 12; Jos 5:13, 14; Jg 13:3, 6; Heb 13:2) During the days before the Flood, the angels that “did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place” performed an incarnation and married human wives. That these angelic sons of God were not truly human but had materialized bodies is shown by the fact that the Flood did not destroy these angels, but they dematerialized and returned to the spirit realm.—Jude 6; Ge 6:4; 1Pe 3:19, 20; 2Pe 2:4.
Now, the scriptures in question read: “They were terrified, and because they became frightened they were imagining they beheld a spirit. So he said to them: ‘Why are you troubled, and why is it doubts come up in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; feel me and see, because a spirit does not have flesh and bones just as you behold that I have.’ And as he said this he showed them his hands and his feet. But while they were still not believing for sheer joy and were wondering, he said to them: ‘Do you have something there to eat?’ And they handed him a piece of broiled fish; and he took it and ate it before their eyes.”
Now, there is an abundance of Scriptural testimony to the effect that, as the apostle Peter expresses it regarding Jesus, “he [was] put to death in the flesh, but [was] made alive in the spirit.” We cannot escape it, if Jesus had been raised in his body of flesh he would have ascended into heaven with it, and “flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption.” No human fleshly Jesus Christ could be ‘the reflection of God’s glory and the exact representation of God’s very being.’ His human body was “the bread that [he gave] . . . in behalf of the life of the world.” For him to have been resurrected in it would have meant that he had taken back this gift of life and mankind was no longer ransomed.—1 Pet. 3:18; 1 Cor. 15:50; Heb. 1:3; John 6:51.
Then how are we to understand Jesus’ words? His disciples thought, because of his sudden appearance in their midst, that they were seeing an apparition, even as they so thought when he came to them upon the water when they were in distress because of a storm. (Matt. 14:26, 27) Rather than try to get them to understand something for which they were not yet ready, Jesus merely assured them that he was no ghost or apparition, which he was not, but that it was indeed he; and he did indeed have a fleshly body which he materialized for the occasion. In other words, Jesus was assuring them that he was not the product of their imagination, neither was he someone else, but in truth and in fact the very Jesus they had known before his death.
Jesus’ answer to his disciples later, as to his restoring the kingdom at that time, was along the same line. (Acts 1:6) He did not stop to explain that his kingdom would be a heavenly one and that they would reign with him from the heavens; they were not prepared for such strikingly new information. “I have many things yet to say to you, but you are not able to bear them at present.” (John 16:12) So Jesus at that time merely told them that it was not for them to know the time for restoring the kingdom to Israel; letting them find out later that the kingdom was never to be restored to fleshly Israel but given to a spiritual Israel. And so with Jesus’ remarks to his disciples as recorded at Luke 24:37-43. He did not endeavor to explain that he had been resurrected a spirit creature and had now materialized for their benefit, but merely drove home the fact that it was really he, the Jesus they had known all along. He asked for something to eat, not because he was hungry, but merely to help impress upon them that he was a real person, not imaginary.
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BibleSteve
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Yes, good point…
Although Jesus rarely spoke of himself as God’s Son, he did acknowledge that he was. (Mark 14:61,*62; John 3:18; 5:25,*26; 11:4) Almost invariably, however, he said that he was “the Son of man.” By identifying himself this way, he highlighted his human birth—the fact that he was truly a man. Thus he also revealed himself to be that “son of man” whom Daniel had seen in vision appearing before Almighty God—“the Ancient of Days.”—Matthew 20:28; Daniel 7:13.
Rather than proclaim himself to be God’s Son, Jesus allowed others to reach that conclusion. And even people besides his apostles did so, including John the Baptist and Jesus’ friend Martha. (John 1:29-34; 11:27) These believed that Jesus was the promised Messiah. They learned that he had lived in heaven as a mighty spirit person and that his life had been miraculously transferred by God to the womb of the virgin Mary.—Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:20-23.
In many respects, Jesus was similar to the first man, Adam. For example, both were perfect men who did not have a human father. (Genesis 2:7,15) So the Bible calls Jesus “the last Adam”—a perfect man who could serve as “a corresponding ransom.” Jesus’ life corresponded to that of “the first man Adam,” whom God created as a perfect human.—1Corinthians 15:45; 1*Timothy 2:5,*6.
The first Adam is called in the Bible “son of God.” (Luke 3:38) However, that Adam lost his precious relationship as God’s son by willfully disobeying God. On the other hand, Jesus was always faithful to his heavenly Father, and he remained God’s approved Son. (Matthew 3:17; 17:5) The Bible says that all who exercise faith in Jesus, accepting him as their Savior, can receive everlasting life.—John 3:16,*36; Acts 5:31; Romans 5:12, 17-19.
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BibleSteve
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It’s intersting to note a few facts about the expression “the Son of Man.” In the Gospel accounts the expression is found nearly 80 times, applying in every case to Jesus Christ, being used by him to refer to himself. (Mt 8:20; 9:6; 10:23) The occurrences outside the Gospel accounts are at Acts 7:56; Hebrews 2:6; and Revelation 1:13; 14:14.
Jesus’ application of this expression to himself clearly showed that God’s Son was now indeed a human, having ‘become flesh’ (Joh 1:14), having ‘come to be out of a woman’ through his conception and birth to the Jewish virgin Mary. (Ga 4:4; Lu 1:34-36) Hence he had not simply materialized a human body as angels had previously done; he was not an incarnation but was actually a ‘son of mankind’ through his human mother.—Compare 1Jo 4:2,*3; 2Jo 7;
For this reason the apostle Paul could apply Psalm 8 as prophetic of Jesus Christ. In his letter to the Hebrews (2:5-9), Paul quoted the verses reading: “What is mortal man ’enohsh′] that you keep him in mind, and the son of earthling man [ben-’a·dham′] that you take care of him? You also proceeded to make him a little less than godlike ones “a little lower than angels,” at Hebrews 2:7], and with glory and splendor you then crowned him. You make him dominate over the works of your hands; everything you have put under his feet.” (Ps 8:4-6; compare Ps 144:3.) Paul shows that, to fulfill this prophetic psalm, Jesus indeed was made “a little lower than angels,” becoming actually a mortal “son of earthling man,” that he might die as such and thereby “taste death for every man,” thereafter being crowned with glory and splendor by his Father, who resurrected him.—Heb 2:8,*9; compare Heb 2:14; Php 2:5-9.
The designation “Son of man,” therefore, also serves to identify Jesus Christ as the great Kinsman of mankind, having the power to redeem them from bondage to sin and death, as well as to identify him as the great Avenger of blood.—Le 25:48,*49; Nu 35:1-29)
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BibleSteve
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One of the reasons why you are so confused about this simple Bible truth is because of the incorrect belief regarding the immortality of the soul. The Bible clear teaches that the condition of the dead is unconscienceness and that the soul dies (Eze 18:4)… By insisting on the “immortality of the soul”, all sorts of goofy problems arise… For example, when a person dies, they supposedly don’t really die… they just continue living… but then what about the resurrection?
When the apostle Paul was in Athens, he preached the good news to a crowd that included some Greek philosophers. They listened to his discussion about the one true God and his call to repentance. But what happened next? Paul concluded his speech, saying: “[God] has set a day in which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and he has furnished a guarantee to all men in that he has resurrected him from the dead.” Those words caused a stir. “When they heard of a resurrection of the dead, some began to mock.” (Acts 17:22-32) Theologian Oscar Cullmann observes: “For the Greeks who believed in the immortality of the soul it may have been harder to accept the Christian preaching of the resurrection than it was for others. ... The teaching of the great philosophers Socrates and Plato can in no way be brought into consonance [agreement] with that of the New Testament.”
Even so, following the great apostasy after the death of the apostles, theologians labored to merge the Christian teaching of the resurrection with Plato’s belief in the immortal soul. In time, some agreed on a novel solution: At death, the soul is separated (“liberated,” as some put it) from the body. Then, according to Outlines of the Doctrine of the Resurrection, by R. J. Cooke, on Judgment Day “each body shall be again united to its own soul, and each soul to its own body.” The future reuniting of the body with its immortal soul is said to be the resurrection.
This theory is still the official doctrine of mainstream churches. While such a notion may seem logical to a theologian, most churchgoers are unacquainted with it. They simply believe that they will go straight to heaven when they die. For this reason, in the May 5, 1995, issue of Commonweal, writer John Garvey charged: “The belief of most Christians [on the matter of life after death] seems to be much closer to Neoplatonism than to anything truly Christian, and it has no biblical basis.” Indeed, by trading the Bible for Plato, Christendom’s clergy extinguished the Biblical resurrection hope for their flocks.
When the apostle Paul was in Athens, he preached the good news to a crowd that included some Greek philosophers. They listened to his discussion about the one true God and his call to repentance. But what happened next? Paul concluded his speech, saying: “[God] has set a day in which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and he has furnished a guarantee to all men in that he has resurrected him from the dead.” Those words caused a stir. “When they heard of a resurrection of the dead, some began to mock.” (Acts 17:22-32) Theologian Oscar Cullmann observes: “For the Greeks who believed in the immortality of the soul it may have been harder to accept the Christian preaching of the resurrection than it was for others. ... The teaching of the great philosophers Socrates and Plato can in no way be brought into consonance [agreement] with that of the New Testament.”
Even so, following the great apostasy after the death of the apostles, theologians labored to merge the Christian teaching of the resurrection with Plato’s belief in the immortal soul. In time, some agreed on a novel solution: At death, the soul is separated (“liberated,” as some put it) from the body. Then, according to Outlines of the Doctrine of the Resurrection, by R. J. Cooke, on Judgment Day “each body shall be again united to its own soul, and each soul to its own body.” The future reuniting of the body with its immortal soul is said to be the resurrection.
This theory is still the official doctrine of mainstream churches. While such a notion may seem logical to a theologian, most churchgoers are unacquainted with it. They simply believe that they will go straight to heaven when they die. For this reason, in the May 5, 1995, issue of Commonweal, writer John Garvey charged: “The belief of most Christians [on the matter of life after death] seems to be much closer to Neoplatonism than to anything truly Christian, and it has no biblical basis.” Indeed, by trading the Bible for Plato, Christendom’s clergy extinguished the Biblical resurrection hope for their flocks.
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Joe_Kelley
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Hellisreal
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The soul is not immortal according to Bible Steve.
And, it just so happens, the WBTS also holds this view.
I guess, its time for another thread.
“is the soul immortal”?
And, it just so happens, the WBTS also holds this view.
I guess, its time for another thread.
“is the soul immortal”?
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BibleSteve
Guest
Read Eze 18:4 and Ecc 9:5, 10… then report back…
(Ezekiel 18:4) Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.
(Ecclesiastes 9:5) For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten.
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Delraek
Guest
Hi BibleSteve,
So, do you believe that the prophecy in Daniel is referring to Michael the Archangel as the person who *was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. *
I worship Jesus, but I don’t worship Michael! (However, I do ask for his protection from Satan…)
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BibleSteve
Guest
This prophecy is certainly talking about Jesus. From this passage and multiple others, a careful Bible reader can see that Jesus is not Jehovah… (for example Psa 110:1-5, Acts 3:13).
A separate question is whether Jesus and Michael are the same. This can’t be proven by scripture. It is noted that both of them are described in similar language… There is circumstantial evidence they maybe the same… but in my opinion that is not provable… it’s like Trinitarian proofs where Jesus is described in similar terms as Jehovah… therefore, they must be the same. That just isn’t logical.
(Psalm 110:1-5) The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord **is: “Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.” **2The rod of your strength Jehovah will send out of Zion, [saying:] “Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.” 3Your people will offer themselves willingly on the day of your military force. In the splendors of holiness, from the womb of the dawn, You have your company of young men just like dewdrops. 4Jehovah has sworn (and he will feel no regret): “You are a priest to time indefinite According to the manner of Mel·chiz′e·dek!” 5Jehovah himself at your right hand Will certainly break kings to pieces on the day of his anger.
(Acts 3:13) The God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob, the God of our forefathers, has glorified his Servant, Jesus, whom YOU, for YOUR part, delivered up and disowned before Pilate’s face, when he had decided to release him.
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inJESUS
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