Kasper: “The pope is not a liberal. He is a radical.”

[JackVk]

You’ll have to ask the Holy Father. My guess would be though he would tell you by putting those issues on the backburner, doesn’t mean you are not a child of the Church. In fact he has assured all of us that he is a son of the Church. But what the faithful believe on abortion and on what constitutes marriage have already been emphasized so much for quite some time now that I think people know the Church opposes abortion in all cases and opposes SSM. And people/Catholics shacking up or engaging in premarital sex know what the Church teaches about those things. They’d have to almost be living under a rock not to since the focus has been on those things for so long. As Jack said, it’s not necessarily about changing doctrine on any of this. But tone and what God is leading the successor to St Peter to call Catholics to focus on now.

We have made our positions known on the whole culture war rigmarole. And in the information age, ignorance is a choice, so like you said, they would have to live under a rock.

 

[Sy_Noe]

All that said, I am not a liberal or a modernist by any stretch of the imagination. I would defend the Church’s most controversial teachings to the death. All I’m saying is that we need to give it a rest.

I had no doubt this was the case. I’m glad though you were able to release all of that which was bottled up inside of you. Looks like more than a few may read it. So far already a few have commented. Peace

 

[PJH_74]

None of which Francis supports. Anyone who says he does is attacking a straw man. Nor will it ever come to that.

Honestly, I’m glad Francis is calling us to refocus, like SyNoe said. We’ve beaten the dead horse of abortion and marriage into a maggot-infested pulp.

I was so relieved when Francis told the faithful to put those issues on the back burner (not that I support changing doctrine, mind you). I’m just sick of us being the Church of anti-this, that, and the other thing.

I’m tired of my fellow Catholics (metaphorically) masturbating over how righteous they think they are, and how persecuted we are by the leftists, hedonists, and nihilists (if we told a Christian in Iraq that we’re being “persecuted”, his response would be, “that’s cute. My daughter was just raped right before having her throat cut with a broken bottle”.)

And all this hooplah about Cardinal Burke’s “exile” to Malta? Give me a freakin’ break. I live on the other side of the planet. That decision will affect me when pigs fly.

Francis said at the beginning of his papacy that the Church needs to stop navel-gazing. And I agree. He has helped me realize that life in Christ does not mean having a lock-step, my-way-or-the-highway attitude that ostracizes anyone who expresses independent thought.

Sure, Benedict XVI was a great theologian, but under him the hierarchy had grown sclerotic and complacent. He just didn’t have the management skills. I’m happy that God has given us Francis. Anyone who labels him a liberal or a modernist or whatever is ignoring the full scope of his papacy.

An extremely succinct statement of what has bothered me about religious conservatism over much of my lifetime. Truly one of the best posts I have ever read here IMHO.

 

[Otche_Nash]

Well it’s good to see that the Lutheran and the non Orthodox Jew are happy with Pope Francis. But they are not the Pope’s primary concern. The Pope’s mandate is to guard the eternal destiny of his flock, not those outside his flock. His primary role toward those outside the flock is to convert them to his flock, and then guard them also. To guard his flock, he must guard the perennial teaching of the Church which he received; which means he must defend doctrine from distortion. Heretics distort, confuse, and mislead; we can assume it is because they themselves have been misled, but it could be for other more nefarious reasons. He is the Vicar of Christ, the Shepherd of the Church; he must feed Our Lord’s sheep, and proclaim the good news of forgiveness and eternal life to the lost sheep.

The Church’s objective teaching is that those who do not repent from sodomy or from having sex with someone other than their original spouse, before they die, will be judged and damned by Jesus Christ Himself. This law is non-negotiable, it is divine law. Sadly, almost incredibly, there are Catholics who don’t understand this, ostensibly due to teachers who have distorted the truth, but more likely due to their personal motivation to believe these distortions. Lies are tempting. Therefore it is His Holiness’ duty to proclaim it again, clearly, unambiguously, for the sake of their souls. Forgiveness awaits those who repent. This is God’s mercy, this is our joy. Mercy is mediated by His Church through her sacraments. Forgiveness is the joy that shines to the world, the light to which lost sheep are drawn.

Alas the world does not want to hear the teaching clearly, because it hurts them; many of them are among the unrepentant. So there is a battle to cloud the teaching. The Pope is also tempted to accommodate the world, he’s human. This is why we pray for him.

 

[John_Savage]

Enough said. It seems he is coming down hard on an American electorate which overwhelmingly just voted for a government not having its top priorities immigration reform and fighting poverty.

It’s natural Huffington Post would be all over it.

Democrats, doing God’s work.

 

[John_Savage]

Well said. The Holy Father just seems to me to be calling on Catholics to refocus. Instead of focusing so much on just a couple of the social issue teachings that has been the focus for some time now. As I search forums such as this one I see a lot of discussion topics about abortion and homosexuality/SSM.

Every age has its challenges. Would you say that the German Church shouldn’t have focused on Nazism?

 

[John_Savage]

I think what they’re saying is that they’re tired of hearing about it. That’s a feeling. I’m sure there are some people tired of hearing about the poor, immigration, etc. I’m sure there were people tired of hearing of South Africa or racism.

So, whatever people get bored with, we should stop talking about.

Well it’s good to see that the Lutheran and the non Orthodox Jew are happy with Pope Francis. But they are not the Pope’s primary concern. The Pope’s mandate is to guard the eternal destiny of his flock, not those outside his flock. His primary role toward those outside the flock is to convert them to his flock, and then guard them also. To guard his flock, he must guard the perennial teaching of the Church which he received; which means he must defend doctrine from distortion. Heretics distort, confuse, and mislead; we can assume it is because they themselves have been misled, but it could be for other more nefarious reasons. He is the Vicar of Christ, the Shepherd of the Church; he must feed Our Lord’s sheep, and proclaim the good news of forgiveness and eternal life to the lost sheep.

The Church’s objective teaching is that those who do not repent from sodomy or from having sex with someone other than their original spouse, before they die, will be judged and damned by Jesus Christ Himself. This law is non-negotiable, it is divine law. Sadly, almost incredibly, there are Catholics who don’t understand this, ostensibly due to teachers who have distorted the truth, but more likely due to their personal motivation to believe these distortions. Lies are tempting. Therefore it is His Holiness’ duty to proclaim it again, clearly, unambiguously, for the sake of their souls. Forgiveness awaits those who repent. This is God’s mercy, this is our joy. Mercy is mediated by His Church through her sacraments. Forgiveness is the joy that shines to the world, the light to which lost sheep are drawn.

Alas the world does not want to hear the teaching clearly, because it hurts them; many of them are among the unrepentant. So there is a battle to cloud the teaching. The Pope is also tempted to accommodate the world, he’s human. This is why we pray for him.

 

[Otche_Nash]

I think what they’re saying is that they’re tired of hearing about it. That’s a feeling. I’m sure there are some people tired of hearing about the poor, immigration, etc. I’m sure there were people tired of hearing of South Africa or racism.

So, whatever people get bored with, we should stop talking about.

That would be heaven. Heretics never stop talking, you’ll never stop hearing it, that’s our lot.

 

[John_Savage]

To Wilberforce:

“Slavery again? Don’t you think there are other things to worry about?”

 

[JackVk]

Well it’s good to see that the Lutheran and the non Orthodox Jew are happy with Pope Francis. But they are not the Pope’s primary concern. The Pope’s mandate is to guard the eternal destiny of his flock, not those outside his flock.

Are you implying that I’m “not Catholic enough”, just because I’m tired of hearing about things we have made our position so well known that you’d either have to be stupid or in denial to not know?

The Church has made her position known on these issues ad nauseam. You do not need to tell me about the evils of abortion or sodomy; I’m not stupid. All I am saying is that maybe-Just MAYBE -there is more to our Catholic faith than yammering about politics like a broken record.

 

[John_Savage]

I don’t think these things are politics. Also, if not the Catholic Church, whom? Furthermore, why doesn’t the other side stop yammering about these things? They don’t until they win.

 

[JackVk]

To Wilberforce:

“Slavery again? Don’t you think there are other things to worry about?”

The problem with this straw man is that, unlike slavery, very few are on the fence about today’s issues. You will either be speaking to a) those who agree with you as you nod cozily over cigars, or b) those who will revile you and not listen to a word you say.

In the case of b), Jesus tells us that there comes a point where you’re wasting your breath, and that you need to shake the dust off your sandals.

In my opinion, defending marriage has become like Vietnam. I have no illusions of our culture suddenly having a turnaround to “traditional family values” (a shibboleth that makes me cringe). It’s time to do as Peter says, and “flee this wicked generation”.

 

[JackVk]

I don’t think these things are politics. Also, if not the Catholic Church, whom? Furthermore, why doesn’t the other side stop yammering about these things? They don’t until they win.

If people don’t accept Church teaching, that’s their problem, not ours. Look at John 6. Jesus made His words clear and unambiguous, and did not beat a dead horse about it.

 

[John_Savage]

The problem with this straw man is that, unlike slavery, very few are on the fence about today’s issues. You will either be speaking to a) those who agree with you as you nod cozily over cigars, or b) those who will revile you and not listen to a word you say.

In the case of b), Jesus tells us that there comes a point where you’re wasting your breath, and that you need to shake the dust off your sandals.

In my opinion, defending marriage has become like Vietnam. I have no illusions of our culture suddenly having a turnaround to “traditional family values” (a shibboleth that makes me cringe). It’s time to do as Peter says, and “flee this wicked generation”.

I understand your position completely. You think it won’t be effective and/or it’s not worth the grief.

Things sometimes change in the direction of the Church, which is why it got big and influential in the first place. The second is a personal decision.

 

[JackVk]

Sorry if I got defensive

 

[ThatMikeGuy]

His views on capitalism and the poor are drenched in socialist rhetoric, no doubt influenced by his life in Argentina. He doesn’t understand the west, and doesn’t understand that capitalism with limited government alterations helps the poor better than anything else.

I mean…have we forgotten the horrors of communism/fascism?

Catholic dogma has always stated that homosexuals are welcome in the Church,they must be chaste and adhere to Catholic teachings on the family and marriage. The pope, in his desire to bring everyone under the tent has not articulated this. Instead he has offered quips like “Who am I to judge?” which makes it appear as if the Church has always hated gay people. And that reinforces views of the Church as anti-gay. Therefore, gays now feel emboldened to change the church to accept and celebrate gay marriage based on their ignorance of what a pope is and what dogma is.

Whether or not the pope is doing this on purpose or not, I don’t know. But when Jesus st with sinners, he didn’t say “Who am I to judge?”. He loved and said “Come unto me.” That does not mean we live as we lived before. If we love Jesus, we do what he wants. The pope has never articulated that as pope.

Abortion and marriage have to be the focus on the Church by default. It goes to the heart of what the Church is. And those attitudes about life (“choices”) influences everything else, including gay marriage.

The pope is energetic and wants to bring people to Jesus. That’s wonderful. But Jesus did not celebrate the sin (lifestyle), and as His representative on earth, the pope has to teach, not just shepherd.

Can anyone tell me what the Pope actually said that makes him such a liberal??? I tend to agree that Pope Francis is a radical in that he is focusing on love above everything else, on mercy and on going out and bringing the Church’s teaching to the city. I believe this is radical, not because it is a new teaching of the Church, but because it has not been our focus for some time. Nothing of what I have heard from the Pope indicates anything liberal? Someone please point me in the direction of this news if I am wrong.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Congratulations on getting that one off your chest! I AM a liberal and NOT a Catholic or Christian. Still, I would not want the Pope to change Church doctrine (not that he could) since I feel some things in the Church must remain inviolate or else, eventually, nearly everything will disentangle. I feel the same about my own religion even though I am not an Orthodox Jew.

I don’t know but I’m just asking. Does the Jewish orthodox religion have a teaching OOJAOJ similar to Catholicism’s OCAC regardless of what the member violates?

 

[Sy_Noe]

Every age has its challenges. Would you say that the German Church shouldn’t have focused on Nazism?

Ir seems Pope Francis wants you to see more challenges than just the big 2 that have been the focal point for awhile now.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Well said. The Holy Father just seems to me to be calling on Catholics to refocus. Instead of focusing so much on just a couple of the social issue teachings that has been the focus for some time now. As I search forums such as this one I see a lot of discussion topics about abortion and homosexuality/SSM.

There’s a good variety on here. Don’t overplay it. :tsktsk:

And you may always start a thread about a topic that interests you, so…

 

[SuperLuigi]

Ir seems Pope Francis wants you to see more challenges than just the big 2 that have been the focal point for awhile now.

Pope Francis is the Vicar of Christ here on Earth, not an American political activist. He’s covered a lot of different subjects, and I have not seen him divert away one bit from core Catholic teaching.

That means Church teaching on so-called gay “marriage” and abortion stand. It also means that central planning to help poor people is frowned upon and it needs to be on the basis of individual giving as long as people want results. Otherwise, it’s just meaningless talk.

Before progressives get too excited over the new Pope following their agenda as many in the American media seem to wish, they may want to consider his perspective. Latin American countries are quite corrupt and controlling compared to the USA.

So the Pope talks about trickle down economics, he is not necessarily condemning capitalism.

It’s rather annoying to see the left-wing media try and use Pope Francis as a vehicle for their agenda, and for someone like Rush Limbaugh to fly off the handle and call him a Marxist.

Someone should’ve sent these folk a copy of the Catechism. Open until X-mas need not apply.