Kasper: “The pope is not a liberal. He is a radical.”

  • Thread starter Thread starter FAB
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
JackVk said:
Are you implying that I’m “not Catholic enough”, just because I’m tired of hearing about things we have made our position so well known that you’d either have to be stupid or in denial to not know?

The Church has made her position known on these issues ad nauseam. You do not need to tell me about the evils of abortion or sodomy; I’m not stupid. All I am saying is that maybe-Just MAYBE -there is more to our Catholic faith than yammering about politics like a broken record.
Click to expand...
Some of the other commenters identify themselves as non-Catholics.

The Synod was not called to respond to heresy, but to challenge doctrine. The defenders of tradition would have killed it before it happened if it was within their power. Have you read how many Cardinals were appalled that Vatican II was ever convened? Did you hear Cardinal Burke explain what a grueling and challenging undertaking it was to publish a book in 4 months, to lay out a complex rebuttal, in order to respond to the German / Vatican coordinated ambush?
The Church has been defending herself for 2000 years, and you’re sick of it? She’s at war, and she’s floundering in this battle. Next year the Synod will produce an official document with the power and authority to disprove the Magisterium’s Infallibility, the promise of Christ Himself. If they are successful, forget about the sodomites, the most fervent of the faithful will doubt. The whole edifice will teeter. This is for all the marbles. The demons wish everyone would adopt your attitude.
 
Otche_Nash said:
Some of the other commenters identify themselves as non-Catholics.

The Synod was not called to respond to heresy, but to challenge doctrine. The defenders of tradition would have killed it before it happened if it was within their power. Have you read how many Cardinals were appalled that Vatican II was ever convened? Did you hear Cardinal Burke explain what a grueling and challenging undertaking it was to publish a book in 4 months, to lay out a complex rebuttal, in order to respond to the German / Vatican coordinated ambush?
The Church has been defending herself for 2000 years, and you’re sick of it? She’s at war, and she’s floundering in this battle. Next year the Synod will produce an official document with the power and authority to disprove the Magisterium’s Infallibility, the promise of Christ Himself. If they are successful, forget about the sodomites, the most fervent of the faithful will doubt. The whole edifice will teeter. This is for all the marbles. The demons wish everyone would adopt your attitude.
Click to expand...
To challenge doctrine? No, no, no! Not at all! It was about how to approach those who feel ostracized and to help them back into the Church. Read the recent thread about Cardinal Dolan saying that there is much consensus at the Synod. Francis himself said at the closing that “the deposit of faith will be upheld”.

You say cardinals were appalled by Vatican II, about how it was supposedly hijacked by Modernists. Well, the Jansenists said that the Council of Trent was corrupted by humanism. When was the last time you talked to a Jansenist?

By saying that the Magisterium’s Infallibility will be disproven you are calling Christ a liar. Why would He go back on His promise? If you weren’t attacking straw men, you would realize that Francis is as orthodox as can be.

If the Synod was “an assault”, then so was Nicea, since Arius was allowed to have his say there.
 
What a post! Ya its really high time we put the killing of thousands of fetuses daily on the back burner! (Read this with heavy sarcasm). The Church and by that I mean Francis should harp about abortion and its evils on a weekly basis!! Grow a catholic spine! (To the poster)

;12482243]None of which Francis supports. Anyone who says he does is attacking a straw man. Nor will it ever come to that.

Honestly, I’m glad Francis is calling us to refocus, like SyNoe said. We’ve beaten the dead horse of abortion and marriage into a maggot-infested pulp.

I was so relieved when Francis told the faithful to put those issues on the back burner (not that I support changing doctrine, mind you). I’m just sick of us being the Church of anti-this, that, and the other thing.

I’m tired of my fellow Catholics (metaphorically) masturbating over how righteous they think they are, and how persecuted we are by the leftists, hedonists, and nihilists (if we told a Christian in Iraq that we’re being “persecuted”, his response would be, “that’s cute. My daughter was just raped right before having her throat cut with a broken bottle”.)

And all this hooplah about Cardinal Burke’s “exile” to Malta? Give me a freakin’ break. I live on the other side of the planet. That decision will affect me when pigs fly.

Francis said at the beginning of his papacy that the Church needs to stop navel-gazing. And I agree. He has helped me realize that life in Christ does not mean having a lock-step, my-way-or-the-highway attitude that ostracizes anyone who expresses independent thought.

Sure, Benedict XVI was a great theologian, but under him the hierarchy had grown sclerotic and complacent. He just didn’t have the management skills. I’m happy that God has given us Francis. Anyone who labels him a liberal or a modernist or whatever is ignoring the full scope of his papacy.
 
RosslynV said:
What a post! Ya its really high time we put the killing of thousands of fetuses daily on the back burner! (Read this with heavy sarcasm). The Church and by that I mean Francis should harp about abortion and its evils on a weekly basis!! Grow a catholic spine! (To the poster)

;12482243]None of which Francis supports. Anyone who says he does is attacking a straw man. Nor will it ever come to that.

Honestly, I’m glad Francis is calling us to refocus, like SyNoe said. We’ve beaten the dead horse of abortion and marriage into a maggot-infested pulp.

I was so relieved when Francis told the faithful to put those issues on the back burner (not that I support changing doctrine, mind you). I’m just sick of us being the Church of anti-this, that, and the other thing.

I’m tired of my fellow Catholics (metaphorically) masturbating over how righteous they think they are, and how persecuted we are by the leftists, hedonists, and nihilists (if we told a Christian in Iraq that we’re being “persecuted”, his response would be, “that’s cute. My daughter was just raped right before having her throat cut with a broken bottle”.)

And all this hooplah about Cardinal Burke’s “exile” to Malta? Give me a freakin’ break. I live on the other side of the planet. That decision will affect me when pigs fly.

Francis said at the beginning of his papacy that the Church needs to stop navel-gazing. And I agree. He has helped me realize that life in Christ does not mean having a lock-step, my-way-or-the-highway attitude that ostracizes anyone who expresses independent thought.

Sure, Benedict XVI was a great theologian, but under him the hierarchy had grown sclerotic and complacent. He just didn’t have the management skills. I’m happy that God has given us Francis. Anyone who labels him a liberal or a modernist or whatever is ignoring the full scope of his papacy.
Click to expand...
Grow a Catholic Spine?

I’ll have you know, I am consecrating myself to Mary for the second time, and attend Mass most days and confession once every month.

Obviously, you have no idea what I’ve been through trying to crusade against abortion. It just got to the point where nothing I did for the pro-life movement bore any fruit. Screaming at people and demonizing them solves nothing.

I’ve noticed that my critics here are now resorting to an ad hominem, as if I’m an insincere Catholic or that I don’t accept what is divinely revealed truth. It is simply condescending and insulting!
 
Otche_Nash said:
Some of the other commenters identify themselves as non-Catholics.

The Synod was not called to respond to heresy, but to challenge doctrine. The defenders of tradition would have killed it before it happened if it was within their power. Have you read how many Cardinals were appalled that Vatican II was ever convened? Did you hear Cardinal Burke explain what a grueling and challenging undertaking it was to publish a book in 4 months, to lay out a complex rebuttal, in order to respond to the German / Vatican coordinated ambush?
The Church has been defending herself for 2000 years, and you’re sick of it? She’s at war, and she’s floundering in this battle. Next year the Synod will produce an official document with the power and authority to disprove the Magisterium’s Infallibility, the promise of Christ Himself. If they are successful, forget about the sodomites, the most fervent of the faithful will doubt. The whole edifice will teeter. This is for all the marbles. The demons wish everyone would adopt your attitude.
Click to expand...
The synod is a recurring meeting and certainly not called to challenge doctrine!🤷
 
Hey well based on your initial post i had to respond. I didnt knew your history. Keep up tge fight against abortion! Your efforts surely bore some fruit in the past.
40.png
JackVk:
Grow a Catholic Spine?

I’ll have you know, I am consecrating myself to Mary for the second time, and attend Mass most days and confession once every month.

Obviously, you have no idea what I’ve been through trying to crusade against abortion. It just got to the point where nothing I did for the pro-life movement bore any fruit. Screaming at people and demonizing them solves nothing.

I’ve noticed that my critics here are now resorting to an ad hominem, as if I’m an insincere Catholic or that I don’t accept what is divinely revealed truth. It is simply condescending and insulting!
 
ProVobis said:
We need more like you, especially when it involves fighting abortion, but even with fighting poverty. I’ll bet many of those who are praising the new Pope aren’t really putting their money where their mouth is and contributing to the needs of the poorer countries.
Click to expand...
Romans 2:1 *You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. *
 
meltzerboy said:
The origin of the word radical is “forming the root; inherent.” In this sense, I believe Pope Francis is radical; but not according to the meaning the word has taken on, that is, revolutionary. There is nothing revolutionary about caring for the poor: it is inherent to Jesus’ teaching as well as the Hebrew Bible.
Click to expand...
This is so right. To me Francis is all about the poor, but not in the sense that he’s some socialistic type wanting class warfare. He simply wants to care for the poor and sadly some political factions will latch onto this to sway the masses into their camp or go against him.

I think the best way to explain Francis is that he is opening doors to get people to rethink Catholicism and get them so that they can become a part of the church and consider her views. You’d be surprised what might lead people into the church.

At the same time it isn’t like he’s going to change anything at all. At least yet
 
LongingSoul said:
Romans 2:1 *You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. *
Click to expand...
I have no problem with feeding the poor. But what I’m confused with is whether the Pope is asking more from individuals or from governments? I think as long as it’s seen as more of a government issue, the problem won’t go away, and the rightists will fight back. Anyone remember the line from Pat Paulsen in his comical Presidential campaign? “My opponent wants to spend $27 billion more on poverty. Frankly I think we have enough poverty already.” (I couldn’t find the exact quote but that’s the gist of it.)
 
ProVobis said:
I have no problem with feeding the poor. But what I’m confused with is whether the Pope is asking more from individuals or from governments? I think as long as it’s seen as more of a government issue, the problem won’t go away, and the rightists will fight back. Anyone remember the line from Pat Paulsen in his comical Presidential campaign? “My opponent wants to spend $27 billion more on poverty. Frankly I think we have enough poverty already.” (I couldn’t find the exact quote but that’s the gist of it.)
Click to expand...
I think the Pope is asking more from both, but appropriate help according to their roles.

Poverty is a issue for SOCIETY. Both individuals and government should both play a major role. It should not be the responsibility of one vs. the other.

NOW: with that said there are things the government can do more of and should, but there are also things the government should do less of. If you want feed a man for a day, give him fish. But if you want a man to feed for a lifetime, teach him to fish. Our society doesn’t do enough of the “teach him to fish.”

All welfare programs should have a working component to it. Welfare recipients should either do one of the following to insure they are not receiving a free ride:

– be employed / seek employment in a job with possible advancement

– if cannot find adequate employment in the private sector, then they should be performing community service (pick up garbage, clean sidewalks, etc.). Do service which is proportionate to the money given by the government. So basically, it becomes employment; an honest wage for honest work.

– stay at home and raise children. Being a stay at home mother is a job in itself. Stay at home moms should be able to “work” by raising her kids

– attend vocational or college training in a trade/subject area which fills a need in society. For example, medical technology at a Community College. Something, where the money given by the government will be used as an investment in society.

My biggest issue with welfare is that people currently get it from the government for nothing. They don’t have to do anything in return. Individuals and charities should be able to give the poor money with no strings attached. But the government should require people to earn the money they are given.
 
Sy_Noe said:
I don’t know but I’m just asking. Does the Jewish orthodox religion have a teaching OOJAOJ similar to Catholicism’s OCAC regardless of what the member violates?
Click to expand...
It’s a tricky question but essentially yes: once a Jew, always a Jew (no need for the word Orthodox). There may be some exceptions, however. I’m not sure, for example, about converts to Judaism who then convert again to another religion. But those born to a Jewish mother (for Reform Jews, the father is acceptable provided one is raised Jewish) are indelibly Jewish even if they intentionally convert, although they may be socially ostracized by their community. It’s a little like being baptized Catholic.
 
phil19034 said:
I think the Pope is asking more from both, but appropriate help according to their roles.

Poverty is a issue for SOCIETY. Both individuals and government should both play a major role. It should not be the responsibility of one vs. the other.

NOW: with that said there are things the government can do more of and should, but there are also things the government should do less of. If you want feed a man for a day, give him fish. But if you want a man to feed for a lifetime, teach him to fish. Our society doesn’t do enough of the “teach him to fish.”

All welfare programs should have a working component to it. Welfare recipients should either do one of the following to insure they are not receiving a free ride:

– be employed / seek employment in a job with possible advancement

– if cannot find adequate employment in the private sector, then they should be performing community service (pick up garbage, clean sidewalks, etc.). Do service which is proportionate to the money given by the government. So basically, it becomes employment; an honest wage for honest work.

– stay at home and raise children. Being a stay at home mother is a job in itself. Stay at home moms should be able to “work” by raising her kids

– attend vocational or college training in a trade/subject area which fills a need in society. For example, medical technology at a Community College. Something, where the money given by the government will be used as an investment in society.

My biggest issue with welfare is that people currently get it from the government for nothing. They don’t have to do anything in return. Individuals and charities should be able to give the poor money with no strings attached. But the government should require people to earn the money they are given.
Click to expand...
Good post and I agree. But I don’t think this Pope (or any previous Pope, for that matter) is asking the poor to do anything. At least that is the perception.
 
phil19034 said:
I think the Pope is asking more from both, but appropriate help according to their roles.

Poverty is a issue for SOCIETY. Both individuals and government should both play a major role. It should not be the responsibility of one vs. the other.

NOW: with that said there are things the government can do more of and should, but there are also things the government should do less of. If you want feed a man for a day, give him fish. But if you want a man to feed for a lifetime, teach him to fish. Our society doesn’t do enough of the “teach him to fish.”

All welfare programs should have a working component to it. Welfare recipients should either do one of the following to insure they are not receiving a free ride:

– be employed / seek employment in a job with possible advancement

– if cannot find adequate employment in the private sector, then they should be performing community service (pick up garbage, clean sidewalks, etc.). Do service which is proportionate to the money given by the government. So basically, it becomes employment; an honest wage for honest work.

– stay at home and raise children. Being a stay at home mother is a job in itself. Stay at home moms should be able to “work” by raising her kids

– attend vocational or college training in a trade/subject area which fills a need in society. For example, medical technology at a Community College. Something, where the money given by the government will be used as an investment in society.

My biggest issue with welfare is that people currently get it from the government for nothing. They don’t have to do anything in return. Individuals and charities should be able to give the poor money with no strings attached. But the government should require people to earn the money they are given.
Click to expand...
St. Paul did talk about in his letter that those who do not work should not eat, however, this message must be framed in the context of what was going on in that community and the belief at the time that Christ would be coming back at any moment, so why bother to work.

Instead we need to turn for guidance to Jesus own words. It does not say feed the poor as long as they work for it. We feed the poor and work to help them so they can feed themselves, but first we must feed them.

The Radical part of the popes message though , is party about the poor but more of a wider call to show mercy on everyone, even those who practices or lifestyle you disagree with. As I do you must also do, Jesus at and taught and healed sinners, the outcast, those who did no conform to society, for us as Catholics the immigrant, same sex persons, atheist, other faiths.
We show mercy, and we will be given mercy
Deacon Frank
 
SuperLuigi said:
Pope Francis is the Vicar of Christ here on Earth, not an American political activist. He’s covered a lot of different subjects, and I have not seen him divert away one bit from core Catholic teaching.

That means Church teaching on so-called gay “marriage” and abortion stand. It also means that central planning to help poor people is frowned upon and it needs to be on the basis of individual giving as long as people want results. Otherwise, it’s just meaningless talk.

Before progressives get too excited over the new Pope following their agenda as many in the American media seem to wish, they may want to consider his perspective. Latin American countries are quite corrupt and controlling compared to the USA.

So the Pope talks about trickle down economics, he is not necessarily condemning capitalism.

It’s rather annoying to see the left-wing media try and use Pope Francis as a vehicle for their agenda, and for someone like Rush Limbaugh to fly off the handle and call him a Marxist.

Someone should’ve sent these folk a copy of the Catechism. Open until X-mas need not apply.
Click to expand...
I’m not sure I’m understanding this last sentence correctly. So in your mind it’s better if they don’t even bother opening til Christmas if they aren’t going to read in the New Year? Between the two you would just rather they not bother reading it at all? :confused:
 
FAB said:
St. Paul did talk about in his letter that those who do not work should not eat, however, this message must be framed in the context of what was going on in that community and the belief at the time that Christ would be coming back at any moment, so why bother to work.

Instead we need to turn for guidance to Jesus own words. It does not say feed the poor as long as they work for it. We feed the poor and work to help them so they can feed themselves, but first we must feed them.

The Radical part of the popes message though , is party about the poor but more of a wider call to show mercy on everyone, even those who practices or lifestyle you disagree with. As I do you must also do, Jesus at and taught and healed sinners, the outcast, those who did no conform to society, for us as Catholics the immigrant, same sex persons, atheist, other faiths.
We show mercy, and we will be given mercy
Deacon Frank
Click to expand...
Hello Deacon,

I agree with you 110%.

Please note: I’m not saying that we should force all the poor to work. But I do think that when the **government **provides welfare, it should be in the context of “teaching them to fish.” Obviously, some poor people cannot “work” for their food and they should still be helped. But those who can give back, should. It would help them learn skills so they can take care of themselves.

May God Bless you and may God Bless your ministry.
 
ProVobis said:
Good post and I agree. But I don’t think this Pope (or any previous Pope, for that matter) is asking the poor to do anything. At least that is the perception.
Click to expand...
I don’t think any Pope is going to lay out the details for a society. Each are different and have different issues/problems. It’s up to us to implement a program that works for the issues we have in America.
 
FAB said:
St. Paul did talk about in his letter that those who do not work should not eat, however, this message must be framed in the context of what was going on in that community and the belief at the time that Christ would be coming back at any moment, so why bother to work.

Instead we need to turn for guidance to Jesus own words. It does not say feed the poor as long as they work for it. We feed the poor and work to help them so they can feed themselves, but first we must feed them.

The Radical part of the popes message though , is party about the poor but more of a wider call to show mercy on everyone, even those who practices or lifestyle you disagree with. As I do you must also do, Jesus at and taught and healed sinners, the outcast, those who did no conform to society, for us as Catholics the immigrant, same sex persons, atheist, other faiths.
We show mercy, and we will be given mercy
Deacon Frank
Click to expand...
Nice post
 
Well said. I am so tired of Catholics acting as if we are a persecuted minority abused by the evil, liberal secularists.

I also agree with Francis ’ emphasis on meeting people where they are with mercy. If we approached people that way rather than condemning and focusing on single issues, we would attract people to Christ and the Church.

None of the more merciful approach requires abandoning doctrines. It does require a change in focus from our own self satisfaction at being right, our self pity, and our narrow focus on one or two issues.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top