Killing Animals for "Sport"

[4elise]

And something to be understood is that the inhumane “factory farms” are the exception, not the rule. All I can say is that 4-H and FFA are a blessing, teaching young people the correct way to farm

According to information from Farm Sanctuary:

• There are more than 325 million egg laying hens in the U.S. confined in battery cages
• With the commercial hog farms - approximately 105 million pigs are raised and slaughtered in the U.S. every year.

I understand that in most areas the small family farms are going the way of the do do — they are being pushed out by big corporate greedy businesses that neither care for how animals are raised or how their agribusinesses impact the communities…

 

[Brendan]

I understand that in most areas the small family farms are going the way of the do do — they are being pushed out by big corporate greedy businesses that neither care for how animals are raised or how their agribusinesses impact the communities…

On the plus side, here in Michigan, we have a “Right to Farm” act. This means that just about any land can be used for commerical farming activities. If you do it subject to certain guidlines, it override local ordainces.

A lot of the homeschool families that I know (including ourselves) now have backyard chicken coops.

I took an old 8x10 shed and put a 10x10 fenced in chicken run outside that. We had 8 chicks there, at least until a raccoon got in an killed them this fall. I’ll be digging a deeper rat wall this spring and starting over.

It’s a great learning experience for the kids, and some pretty good eggs too.

backyardchickens.com/forum/index.php

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

What I don’t understand is (regarding to pigs) is why pork is actually safer to consume now than when I was a younger child. Pork always needed to be prepared until it was really well done. Now it is safe to serve it rare.

I have heard that this better quality meat is due to better practice in raising pigs, and safer foods given to them.

Also I don’t understand the claim that some pigs survive the slaughter process and then are boiled alive. My dad was a butcher, and had actually slaughtered pigs in person. If they are not stabbed in the correct way, (in the neck at the right angle) you might as well throw the whole thing out. It has to do with blood coagulation in the animal. So maybe it happens, but it seems like poor business practice.

Also, the claim about constantly pregnant sows…I just saw a documentary about pigs in the wild. They give birth to litters of piglets (not just one as a cow has only one calf) They wean relatively early, and go into heat pretty quickly. They tend to be promiscuous little animals in the wild. It isn’t “unnatural” for them to produce a great number of offspring.

Also some disclosure, I am the first generation to actually be born in the US from my family. My Dad grew up in Sicily before and after World War 2. All types of employment that he had had to do with food. From farming in Italy, that included grain production, raising cows, other livestock. Making cheese. and other animal products. He also used to hunt both in Italy and US.

He was able to use these skills to find work in the US, and to raise a family and give us a good future and a nice life. He education was interrupted during the war, so his employment was limited to what he could actually do. He also was able to work during hunting season to help hunters process the deer carcasses into steaks and cutlets and chops and etc.

So, let’s say he didn’t work at these jobs…our family of humans would not have had a nice life. We probaly would have been below the poverty line.

These threads, while shouldn’t upset me, do. My Dad was an*** awsome*** man. He would not hesitate to actually give someone the shirt off his back, his last sandwich.

I’ve seen him milk cows, I’ve seen him slaughter lambs, I’ve seen him carve large pieces of meat into steaks, steaks chops etc. And he did his job well. His most frequent sayings were to. “do things with your whole heart” and “According to God’s will”

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

On the plus side, here in Michigan, we have a “Right to Farm” act. This means that just about any land can be used for commerical farming activities. If you do it subject to certain guidlines, it override local ordainces.

A lot of the homeschool families that I know (including ourselves) now have backyard chicken coops.

I took an old 8x10 shed and put a 10x10 fenced in chicken run outside that. We had 8 chicks there, at least until a raccoon got in an killed them this fall. I’ll be digging a deeper rat wall this spring and starting over.

It’s a great learning experience for the kids, and some pretty good eggs too.

backyardchickens.com/forum/index.php

PETA would say you are at fault because you had the chickens where the coons could get they. They then would praise you because you were caring for wildlife because you fed the coons.

 

[4elise]

What I don’t understand is (regarding to pigs) is why pork is actually safer to consume now than when I was a younger child. Pork always needed to be prepared until it was really well done. Now it is safe to serve it rare.

I have heard that this better quality meat is due to better practice in raising pigs, and safer foods given to them.

Also I don’t understand the claim that some pigs survive the slaughter process and then are boiled alive. My dad was a butcher, and had actually slaughtered pigs in person. If they are not stabbed in the correct way, (in the neck at the right angle) you might as well throw the whole thing out. It has to do with blood coagulation in the animal. So maybe it happens, but it seems like poor business practice.

Also, the claim about constantly pregnant sows…I just saw a documentary about pigs in the wild. They give birth to litters of piglets (not just one as a cow has only one calf) They wean relatively early, and go into heat pretty quickly. They tend to be promiscuous little animals in the wild. It isn’t “unnatural” for them to produce a great number of offspring.

Also some disclosure, I am the first generation to actually be born in the US from my family. My Dad grew up in Sicily before and after World War 2. All types of employment that he had had to do with food. From farming in Italy, that included grain production, raising cows, other livestock. Making cheese. and other animal products. He also used to hunt both in Italy and US.

He was able to use these skills to find work in the US, and to raise a family and give us a good future and a nice life. He education was interrupted during the war, so his employment was limited to what he could actually do. He also was able to work during hunting season to help hunters process the deer carcasses into steaks and cutlets and chops and etc.

So, let’s say he didn’t work at these jobs…our family of humans would not have had a nice life. We probaly would have been below the poverty line.

These threads, while shouldn’t upset me, do. My Dad was an*** awsome*** man. He would not hesitate to actually give someone the shirt off his back, his last sandwich.

I’ve seen him milk cows, I’ve seen him slaughter lambs, I’ve seen him carve large pieces of meat into steaks, steaks chops etc. And he did his job well. His most frequent sayings were to. “do things with your whole heart” and “According to God’s will”

I appreciate MaryGale how much you loved your dad - my dad worked in a grocery store, worked in the butcher section some times too - one of my best memories was Sunday a.m. - because if you remember the stores weren’t open on Sunday - he and I would go to 6:00 a.m. Mass and then go to the store to make sure all the refrigration was working, then go home and make breakfast for the rest of the family who went to 8:30 Mass - I am certainly not suggesting the work your father, or any of our fathers did was anything but the beautiful job of loving our families.

And for me it isn’t about the way your father took care of animals - but rather the hugh agri busnessesTODAY which treat animals like things - and while pigs may be ‘promiscious’ in the wild - they can stand up and run and move where they want - unlike those raised in sow crates - even our Holy Father has said that it is wrong to treat animals like commodities -

For example this thread is about ‘sport’ hunting - which in my mind is someone just killing for the fun of it - it doesn’t sound like that was your father’s way - and probably something he would find objectionable too since he was so close to God’s creation!

Peace

 

[Brendan]

PETA would say you are at fault because you had the chickens where the coons could get they. They then would praise you because you were caring for wildlife because you fed the coons.

A.) Like I really care what PETA thinks

B.) They probably wouldn’t like my concept of poetic justice.

We have since trapped the coons that killed the chickens. We also keep an outdoor cat, since chicken feed attracts mice. Since it’s fall, we now feed the cat. The raccoons have been helping themselves to the cats food. So we used the cat’s food to trap them.

They have been killed (quickly). THe first one was dissected by me as a biology lesson to our (homeschooled) kids and some neighbor homeschool kids. My son is keeping the pelt to make a coonskin cap.

The second was simply killed and skinned.

The meat from both has been turned into cat food. Since those little buggers were stealing the cat’s food, it is only fitting that they BECOME food FOR the cat.

 

[fultonfish]

Animals are NOT people.

 

[JaneGrey]

Animals are NOT people.

You dont say? I Really dont see why is everyone is up in arms about people wanting to give equal rights to animals as humans have. No one is suggesting animals be given the right to vote or social welfare benefits. Except for fools like Ingrid Newkirk (who I think we should feel sorry for rather than make fun of) who have completely crazy ideas about some things, most people from animal rights organizations, catholic or otherwise are not people-haters.

So relax. I think animal rights is meant to mean the same right as humans to use their bodies the way they were meant to be used to and to not have to suffer needlessly.

God bless

 

[severus68]

You dont say? I Really dont see why is everyone is up in arms about people wanting to give equal rights to animals as humans have. No one is suggesting animals be given the right to vote or social welfare benefits. Except for fools like Ingrid Newkirk (who I think we should feel sorry for rather than make fun of) who have completely crazy ideas about some things, most people from animal rights organizations, catholic or otherwise are not people-haters.

So relax. I think animal rights is meant to mean the same right as humans to use their bodies the way they were meant to be used to and to not have to suffer needlessly.

God bless

I agree.

 

[4elise]

You dont say? I Really dont see why is everyone is up in arms about people wanting to give equal rights to animals as humans have. No one is suggesting animals be given the right to vote or social welfare benefits. Except for fools like Ingrid Newkirk (who I think we should feel sorry for rather than make fun of) who have completely crazy ideas about some things, most people from animal rights organizations, catholic or otherwise are not people-haters.

So relax. I think animal rights is meant to mean the same right as humans to use their bodies the way they were meant to be used to and to not have to suffer needlessly.

God bless

well said.

 

[fultonfish]

Mixing confused metaphors.

Rights and responsibilities are two totally different things.

Animals have NO rights.

People have a responsibility to be humane.

Not the same thing.

 

[Marfran]

Mixing confused metaphors.

Rights and responsibilities are two totally different things.

Animals have NO rights.

People have a responsibility to be humane.

Not the same thing.

Yes, I agree–people have the ***responsibility ***to be humane.

I think the word “rights” connotes a lot of misunderstanding.

At first I did not like to use this word either, until I researched and learned the true meaning as applied to how we treat animals.

Whoever said “Animals are not People,” a few posts ago–I would like to say that this sentence demonstates a total misunderstanding of animal “rights.”

Animal “rightists” are not trying to elevate animals to the status of people. They just want to afford animals some ***basic ***“rights”–those given to them by God. The right to run if they have legs, fly if they have wings, and swim if they have fins.

An animal living in confinement, in a cage so small that it can barely turn around is not humane, and that animal is deprived of his “right” as given to him by God, to move about using his legs in a natural way.

Our responsibility in being humane, must recognize the suffering that we cause by treating animals this way, by depriving them of their basic natural “rights.”

God has allowed us to utilize animals as food and/or clothing but we can not abuse this-- must assess our needs, authentic needs vs. wants/desires related to vanity, gluttony, etc.

Killing an animal for the pleasure of killing it serves no authentic need, and takes the permission of utilizing animals to a place where we are focusing on persuits of power and ego.

I guess that each individual hunter is responsible to look inward and assess his own motivations for participating in “the hunt.”

I don’t know if we have heard from anyone who seriously trophy hunts on this thread–anyone who has participated in “canned hunts” or who pursues exotic trophy heads. I don’t think that that type of hunting falls into the legitimate category of utilizing animals for survival or need.

So anyone who is a hunter has quite a responsibility–to be humane, to asses his needs and purpose, and not to be casual about killing.

 

[pnewton]

. They just want to afford animals some ***basic ***“rights”–those given to them by God. The right to run if they have legs, fly if they have wings, and swim if they have fins.

… and be grilled if they are made of meat.

On a more serious note, everytime one is tempted to post that animals are not people, remember that everyone understands that is a strawman arguement. I would think that logic would have prevailed by now and that particular slogan would be passe.

 

[Marfran]

… and be grilled if they are made of meat.

On a more serious note, everytime one is tempted to post that animals are not people, remember that everyone understands that is a strawman arguement. I would think that logic would have prevailed by now and that particular slogan would be passe.

Yes, when one posts: ***Animals are NOT People *** this serves to misrepresent the views of animal “welfarists” or animal “rightists.”

I wonder if people intentionally throw the straw man in, or if some people ***actually believe ***that animal “welfarists” and animal “rightists” want to elevate the status of animals to that of people???

Seriously, if we grant animals the same status as people, then when we go to the polls we will be standing in really,really long lines. And how many mice can reach the gas and brake pedals and the steering wheel at the same time in an effort to drive an automobile? And how could they pay for the gas? Would we have to give them jobs too? And does anyone want to sit next to a stinky skunk in the neighborhood pub? Isn’t cigarette smoke bad enough???

 

[4elise]

Yes, I agree–people have the ***responsibility ***to be humane.

I think the word “rights” connotes a lot of misunderstanding.

At first I did not like to use this word either, until I researched and learned the true meaning as applied to how we treat animals.

Whoever said “Animals are not People,” a few posts ago–I would like to say that this sentence demonstates a total misunderstanding of animal “rights.”

Animal “rightists” are not trying to elevate animals to the status of people. They just want to afford animals some ***basic ***“rights”–those given to them by God. The right to run if they have legs, fly if they have wings, and swim if they have fins.

An animal living in confinement, in a cage so small that it can barely turn around is not humane, and that animal is deprived of his “right” as given to him by God, to move about using his legs in a natural way.

Our responsibility in being humane, must recognize the suffering that we cause by treating animals this way, by depriving them of their basic natural “rights.”

God has allowed us to utilize animals as food and/or clothing but we can not abuse this-- must assess our needs, authentic needs vs. wants/desires related to vanity, gluttony, etc.

Killing an animal for the pleasure of killing it serves no authentic need, and takes the permission of utilizing animals to a place where we are focusing on persuits of power and ego.

I guess that each individual hunter is responsible to look inward and assess his own motivations for participating in “the hunt.”

I don’t know if we have heard from anyone who seriously trophy hunts on this thread–anyone who has participated in “canned hunts” or who pursues exotic trophy heads. I don’t think that that type of hunting falls into the legitimate category of utilizing animals for survival or need.

So anyone who is a hunter has quite a responsibility–to be humane, to asses his needs and purpose, and not to be casual about killing.

Thanks for the further clarity on this distinction - I like the use of ‘animal rights’ in this connotation - I know that I’ve previously made the distinction between animal welfare and animal rights based on what I know about the organizations that either call themselves welfare or rights groups - and perhaps others have as well.

Usually on these threads on this and other topics I find it is the semantics that cause the most trouble - for example the one who posted animals are not people - I don’t think anyone here thinks they are! But we also acknowledge that animals are made by God and we have responsibilities because WE are human!

Peace!

 

[Ridgerunner]

… and be grilled if they are made of meat.

On a more serious note, everytime one is tempted to post that animals are not people, remember that everyone understands that is a strawman arguement. I would think that logic would have prevailed by now and that particular slogan would be passe.

If I recall my older posts correctly, I think I am one of the guilty ones who said “Animals are not people”. However, I did not use that phrase in the context of characterizing animal rights people as people who proposed equality of rights between humans and animals.

Rather, I stated it (I know I have somewhere on CAF, and likely in this thread.) for the purpose of pointing out that animals’ needs and, indeed, reactions, are not the same as our own in many respects. Therefore, we should not assume that conditions we would think of as awful for humans are necessarily “regarded” as awful by animals. Nor are all things we consider important to us of any importance to them. That is not to paint all “animal rightists” with the same brush. But I have seen things asserted by some posters as terrible conditions for animals when, in reality, some of those conditions actually optimized the satisfaction of animal “needs”. I realize, too, that some who raise animals do a terrible job of it.

 

[pnewton]

If I recall my older posts correctly, I think I am one of the guilty ones who said “Animals are not people”. However, I did not use that phrase in the context of characterizing animal rights people as people who proposed equality of rights between humans and animals.

Ridgerunner, I hope I did not assague my conscience at your expense. I made that point out of guilt for wanting to grill Marfan’s animals. I do think she has been unfairly portrayed as more extreme than she is in this thread. She has never tried to insist that others should live by her sensibilities and understanding of Church teaching.

In the area of animal treatment, we have a broad spectrum of what good Catholics can believe and think, as long as we abide my the principles and guidelines we are given.

 

[4elise]

Ridgerunner, I hope I did not assague my conscience at your expense. I made that point out of guilt for wanting to grill Marfan’s animals. I do think she has been unfairly portrayed as more extreme than she is in this thread. She has never tried to insist that others should live by her sensibilities and understanding of Church teaching.

In the area of animal treatment, we have a broad spectrum of what good Catholics can believe and think, as long as we abide my the principles and guidelines we are given.

I agree… Marfran shares what is in her heart! Thanks pnewton for pointing this out so well!

Blessings,

 

[pete_29]

I disagree, the only reason I can see for these numerous threads is to try and make people who disagree with the OP’s position feel guilty about their relationship with animals.

 

[Marfran]

I disagree, the only reason I can see for these numerous threads is to try and make people who disagree with the OP’s position feel guilty about their relationship with animals.

Pete, here is the original OP. I do not believe I indicate any POSITION at all. It is a question for thought and debate/discussion. A thread can take any direction from the original OP, based on the opinions of the posters. FYI: I work with animals and this being my area of expertise it is naturally the topic that I feel most comfortable in, and feel I am most articulate in. I have participated in threads on other topics, and even follow some that I don’t post in, but when I start a thread I like to choose a topic that has a lot of familiarity to me. I belong to several Christian & Catholic animal organizations, have patched up a lot of injured wildlife, and have done a lot of reading on animal ethics and theology in relation to Church teaching. If these threads make you feel guilty, then by all means don’t participate! I admire deep thinkers and people who enjoy debate, people who fondly remember their high school years on the forensics team!

Is*** sports hunting ***ethical? Can we kill animals for the game of it?

Pete: Are you trying to make me feel guilty about my choice of profession? Instead of taking care of animals, should I be thinking of a career change?? Should I consider a new career in factory farming? Should I consider becoming a hunting guide?