killing nonhuman animals

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Catholic90 said:
I killed mice this week. I am fixing to kill any more mice that set their furry little paws into my house. I do NOT plan to eat them! :eek: I also am not killing them for fun! I am killing them because they are vermin and rodents and are dirty, disease carrying critters. I do not want them bringing fleas, parasites, and other grossness into my home and infesting my food or my pets’ home!
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I think this is fine because as you say, you arent killing them for fun, but rather to protect the health (and therefore lives) of your family and pets. I think in every similar thing we do, we should take time to assess the reasons we are doing it. For me personally and meat eating, I came to the conclusion that my tastebuds’ desire for meat was not worth the death of livestock animals. And I say this as a runner.

I understand that some people might not find it feasible to switch to a plant based diet due to allergies, health problems etc. However my hope is that we work more towards finding more and more alternatives to meat in the future.
 
severus68 said:
With respect, I disagree. Not all people who believe in God appear to know what is unethical and uncompassionate. Even among people of religion, there is always some diagreement. Atheists may not believe in God but they have consciences. I believe that the conscience is what makes us know what is right and wrong. For me as a Christian, my conscience is part of me, God given.
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Yes, athiests have consciences, we as Catholics know that to be true. But to an athiest, for them to believe that there is ethical behavior would have to admit that either they can enforce their concept on ethics on others, or that what is ethical is defined by general consensus

In the first case, whatever an individual person decides is correct has no bearing on what another person decides for themselves. There is no absolute morality.

The noted atheist philosopher Nietzsche noted that the strong ( supermen\ubermensch) indeed have an obligation to be amoral, as morality is simply a means by which the weak attempt to control the strong.

The other option would be for the atheist to hold that what is ethical is defined by what a majority hold. But that too is indefensible. How many would hold that slavery was moral simply because a majority of people desired it? But that is a position that an atheist would have to hold if he\she was logically consistant.

Finally, there is the argument for ‘the greatest good for the greatest number of people’, this is simply a restating of the same logical fallicy.

How gets to define what ‘good’ is. A Klansman, for example would think that blacks pose a danger to the greatest number ( whites) and therefore would be justified in lynching as many as he could. So the utilitary view is logically faulty, UNLESS there is a absolute judge of morality that is external to everyone. There there DOES exist an eternal definiton of good that is outside the realm of humanity.

But that is a position only a Theist can hold.

Theists can hold differing positions on what the ultimate judge holds to be good (as you noted), but an atheist must, by definition, deny the very existance of such a judge.

An atheist cannot hold to a metaphysical reality, only to physical reality. Therefore, there cannot be an ultimate judge outside of humanity, indeed outside all creation, only a human judge.

But that takes us back to holding what is ethical being defined by either the individual, a majority vote, or enforced on others by ubermensch. There is no other logical alternative.
 
Heres a list of cattle breeds which will become extinct if farmers no longer rear them because people stop eating them.

Used for beef
Angus
Limousin
Murray Grey heifers
Square Meater heifer
A Tasmanian Grey cow
Taurine cattle (Bos taurus)
Alberes
Angus
Aubrac cattle
Asturian Mountain
Australian Lowline
Belgian Blue
Belgian Red
Belted Galloway
Bazadais
Bianca Val Padana o Modenese
Black Baldy
Black Hereford (breed)
Black Hereford (hybrid)
Blonde d’Aquitaine
Blue Albion
Blue Grey
Braunvieh
British White
BueLingo
Canadian Speckle Park
Charolais
Chiangus
Chianina
English Longhorn
Florida Cracker
Galloway
German Angus Cattle
Glan Cattle
Greek Steppe cattle
Hays Converter
Hereford
Highland Cattle
Hungarian Grey Cattle
Limousin
Lincoln Red
Luing
Maine-Anjou cattle
Devon cattle (North Devon, Devon Ruby, Red Ruby)
Murray Grey
Pineywoods
Polled Hereford
Polled Shorthorn
Pustertal Pied Cattle
Queensland Miniature Borans
Red Angus
Red Poll
Riggit Galloway
Romagnola
RX3
Salorn
Simford (Australian)
Shorthorn
South Devon
Speckle Park cattle
Square Meater
Sussex cattle
Tasmanian Grey
Texas Longhorn
Texon
Vaynol cattle
Wagyu
Welsh Black
Whitebred Shorthorn
White Park
Zebu (Bos indicus)
Boran
Brahman
Indo-Brazilian
Nelore
Nguni cattle
Ponwar
Red Fulani
White Fulani
Hybrids
Australian Brangus steer
Greyman Cattle Steers on left & in the foreground
Santa Gertrudis cows and calves
This list is incomplete; you can help by expanding it.
Adaptaur: Taurine/zebu hybrid
Africangus: Taurine/zebu hybrid
Afrikaner: Taurine/zebu hybrid
American cattle: Taurine/zebu hybrid
Amerifax: Taurine/zebu hybrid
Australian Braford: Taurine/zebu hybrid
Australian Brangus: Taurine/zebu hybrid
Australian Charbray: Taurine/zebu hybrid
Balancer: Taurine/zebu hybrid
Barzona: Taurine/zebu hybrid
Belmont Red: Taurine/zebu hybrid
Beefmaker: Taurine/zebu hybrid
Beefalo: cattle/American Bison hybrid
Beefmaster: Taurine/zebu hybrid
Bonsmara: Taurine/zebu hybrid
Brahmousin: Taurine/zebu hybrid
Braford: Taurine/zebu hybrid
Brangus: Taurine/zebu hybrid
Canchim: Taurine/zebu hybrid
Charbray: Taurine/zebu hybrid
Droughtmaster: Taurine/zebu hybrid
Gelbray: Taurine/zebu hybrid
Greyman Cattle: Taurine/zebu hybrid
Jamaica Red: Taurine/zebu hybrid
Mandalong Special: Taurine/zebu hybrid
Red Fulani: Taurine/zebu hybrid
Red Brangus:Taurine/zebu hybrid
Romosinuano
Sanga: Taurine/zebu hybrid (A group of breeds)
Santa Cruz cattle: Taurine/zebu hybrid
Santa Gertrudis cattle: Taurine/zebu hybrid
Senepol: Taurine/zebu hybrid
Simbrah: Taurine/zebu hybrid
Simford (Israeli Red): Taurine/zebu hybrid
Symons Type: Taurine/zebu hybrid
Tswana: Taurine/zebu hybrid
Tuli: Taurine/zebu hybrid
Tulim: Taurine/zebu hybrid
Wangus: Taurine/zebu hybrid

A list of pig breeds which will become extinct if farmers no longer keep them because people stop eating them.

here are hundreds of breeds of the domestic pig (Sus scrofa domesticus).
American Landrace
American Yorkshire
Angeln Saddleback
Appalachian English (pig)
Arapawa Island
Australian Yorkshire
Babi Kampung
Ba Xuyen
Bantu
Bazna
Beijing Black
Belarus Black Pied
Belgian Landrace
Bengali Brown Shannaj
Bentheim Black Pied
Berkshire
Black Slavonian
Black Canarian Pig
British Landrace
British Lop
British Saddleback
Bulgarian White
Cantonese
Chester White
Choctaw Hog
Czech Improved White
Danish Landrace
Dermantsi Pied
Dorset Gold Tip
Duroc
Dutch Landrace pig
East Balkan pig
Essex
Estonian Bacon
Fengjing
Finnish Landrance
French Landrace
Gascon pig
German Landrace
Gloucestershire Old Spots
Grice
Guinea Hog
Hampshire
Hante
Hereford
Hezuo
Iron Age pig
Iberian
Italian Landrace
Jersey Red
Jinhua
Kele
Japanese Landrace
Jeju Black Pig
Korean native pig
Krskopolje
Kunekune
Lacombe
Large Black
Large Black-white
Large White
Lithuanian Native pig
Lithuanian White
Leicoma
Lincolnshire curly-coated pig
Mangalitsa
Meishan
Middle White
Miniature pig
Minzhu
Minokawa Buta
Mong Cai
Mukota
Mora Romagnola
Moura
Mulefoot
Neijiang
Ningxiang
Norwegian Landrace
Norwegian Yorkshire
Ossabaw Island
Oxford Sandy and Black
Philippine Native
Piétrain
Poland China
Red Wattle
Spots
Surabaya Babi
Swabian-Hall
Swedish Landrace
Taihu pig
Tamworth
Thuoc Nhieu
Tibetan
Tokyo-X
Turopolje
Vietnamese Potbelly
Welsh
Wessex Saddleback
West French White
Windsnyer
Wuzishan
Yanan

A list of poultry breeds which will become extinct if farmers no longer keep them because people stop eating them.

Australia
Australorp
Australian Langshan
Australian Pit Game
Australian Game
[edit]Austria
Altsteirer
Sulmtaler
[edit]Belgium
Barbu de Watermael
Belgian Bearded d’Anvers (or Antwerp Belgian)
Bearded d’Uccle
Belgian d’Everberg
Campine
Brabanter
Braekel (Brakel)
[edit]Brazil
Balazēo Cealio
Brazilian Grey
Kalabèo
[edit]Bulgaria
Black Shumen chicken
Black Shumen chicken
Starozagorska red chicken
[edit]Canada
Chantecler
Red Shaver
[edit]Chile
Araucana
[edit]China
The Silkie is iconic for its unusual fur-like plumage
Cochin
Croad Langshan
Nankin
Pekin
Silkie
[edit]Croatia
Croatian Dwarf chicken (Hrvatska patuljasta kokoš)
Dalmatian chicken (Dalmatinska kokoš)
Hrvatica (Hrvatica)
Križevac Crested chicken (Križevačka kukmasta kokoš)
Sava Crested chicken (Posavska kukumasta kokoš)
Slavonian Dwarf Naked Neck chicken (Slavonska patuljasta golovrata kokoš)
[edit]Cuba
Cubalaya
Cubalaya
[edit]Czechia
Czech gold brindled hen
Šumavanka
[edit]Egypt
Egyptian Fayoumi
[edit]Finland
Finnish Chickens
[edit]France
Faverolles
Bresse
Bourbonnaise
Crèvecœur
Faverolles
Houdan
La Flèche
 
Marans
[edit]Germany
Annaberger chicken
Augsburger chicken
Bergischer Long Crower
Bergischer Schlotterkamm
Bielefelder
Deutscher Sperber
Deutsches Reichshuhn
Dresdner chicken
East Frisian Gull
German Faverolles
German Langshan
Hamburg
Kraienköppe (Twentse)
Lakenvelder
Niederrheiner chicken
Pfalz chicken (Pfälzer Kampfhuhn)
Phoenix
Ramelsloher
Rheinlander
Saxonian Chickens
Sundheimer chicken
Thuringian Bearded chicken
Vogtländer chicken
Vorwerk
Westphalian chicken
[edit]Greece
Source [5]
Alonissos island Chicken
Boufunes
Curly Chicken Mutation
Follidotes Chicken
Greek Cuckoo spotted chicken
Hooded Greek Chicken
Chios Fighting Chicke
Kalamata Chicken
Komotini Long Crow Chicken
Lesvos Dwarf Naked Necked Chicken
Lesvos Fillianes Chicken
Milos Island Chicken
Pomak Fighting Chicken
[edit]India
Giri Raja (The Mountain King)
Kalinga Brown
Mumbai Desi
Grama Lakshmi
Naati Kori(Kudla)
Kadaknath
Dwarf
Control Broiler
Aseel
Dalhem Red
Vanaraja (The Forest King)
Gramapriya
Punjab Broiler
[edit]Iceland
Icelandic chicken
[edit]Indonesia
Sumatra cock
Ayam Cemani
Bekisar (interspecific hybrid)
Sumatra (chicken)
Kedu (nationally standardized)
Nunukan/Tawao
Pelung (long-crower, locally standardized)
Ketawa (“laughing” or staccato-crower, local bred from Rappang, South Sulawesi)
Bali (naked-necked chicken)
[edit]Iran
Manx Rumpy (or Rumpless Game)
Orloff [3][6]
[edit]Italy
Leghorn
Ancona
Leghorn
Sicilian Buttercup
[edit]Japan
Japanese Bantam (or Chabo)
Shamo (or Ko-Shamo)
Tomaru
Totenko
Onagadori
[edit]Korea
Gangwon Jaeraedak
Jangmigye
Yeongsan ogye
Han Do
[edit]Kosovo
Kosova Long Crowing Rooster
[edit]Malaysia
Malay
Serama
[edit]Marianas
Saipan Jungle Fowl
[edit]Netherlands
A Barnevelder trio
Barnevelder
Booted Bantam
Dutch Bantam
Hamburg
North Holland Blue
Polish
Welsummer
[edit]New Zealand
Bawu Hawu
New Zealand Junglefowl
Waki Waki Hawa
[edit]Norway
Norwegian Jærhøne
[edit]Pakistan
Asil (or Aseel)
Afghan game fowl
Buff chicken
[edit]Philippines
Philippine Native Chicken
[edit]Poland
Green-legged Chicken
Poland
[edit]Portugal
Pedrês Portuguesa
Amarela
Preta Lusitânica
[edit]Romania
Naked Neck
Transylvanian Naked Neck
[edit]Russia
Orloff
Yurlov Crower
[edit]Serbia
Banat Naked Neck (Banatski gološijan)
Sombor chicken (Somborska kaporka)
Svrljig chicken (Svrljiška kokoš) [7]
[edit]Slovakia
Oravka
[edit]South Africa
Ovambo [8]
Potchefstroom Koekoek [8]
Venda [8]
[edit]Spain
A Minorca rooster
Andalusian
Asturian Painted Hen
Castilian
Catalana or Prat Leonada
Empordanesa
Euskal oiloa
Extremaduran
Flor d’Ametller
Ibiza
Indio de León
Majorca
Minorca
Murciana
Pardo de León
Pedresa
Penedesenca
Pintarrazada
Pita Pinta Asturiana
Serrana de Teruel
Sobrarbe
Spanish game
Sureña
Utrerana
White-Faced Black Spanish
[edit]Switzerland
Appenzeller (Barthühner and Spitzhauben)
Schweizer chicken (Schweizerhuhn)
[edit]Turkey
Sultan
Hint Horoz
Gerze
Ukraine
Poltava
United Kingdom
Dorking
Indian Game (or Cornish)
Ixworth
Madly Blue
Marsh Daisy
Modern Game
Muffed Old English Game
Norfolk Grey
Old English Game
Old English Pheasant Fowl
Orpington
Rosecomb
Scots Dumpy
Scots Grey
Sebright
Sussex
Yokohama
United States
Ameraucana
American Game
Buckeye
Blue hen of delaware
California Gray
California White
Delaware
Dominique
Holland
Iowa Blue
Java
Jersey Giant
Lamona
New Hampshire
Plymouth Rock (or Barred Rock, Rock)
Rhode Island Red
Rhode Island White
Winnebago
Wyandotte
Vietnam
Ac
Ga Noi
Ga Tre
Ameraucana
Ancona
Andalusian
Araucana
Asturian Painted Hen
Barnevelder
Campine
Catalana
Easter Egger
Egyptian Fayoumi
Norwegian Jærhøne
Kraienköppe (Twentse)
Lakenvelder
Leghorn
Marans
Minorca
Orloff
Penedesenca
Sicilian Buttercup
White-Faced Black Spanish
Welsummer
Bresse
Indian Game (or Cornish Game)
Ixworth
Jersey Giant
Australorp
Brahma
Braekel (Brakel)
Buckeye
California Gray
Chantecler
Cubalaya
Derbyshire Redcap
Dominique
Dorking
Faverolles
Holland
Iowa Blue
Java
Jersey Giant
Marsh Daisy
Naked Neck
New Hampshire
Norfolk Grey
Orpington
Plymouth Rock
Poltava
Red Shaver
Rhode Island Red
Rhode Island White
Scots Dumpy
Scots Grey
Sussex
Winnebago
Wyandotte
American Game G
Asil G
Appenzeller U
Barbu de Watermael
Belgian Bearded d’Anvers
Bearded d’Uccle
Belgian d’Everberg
Blue Hen of Delaware G
Booted Bantam
Cochin
Crèvecœur U
Croad Langshan U
Dutch Bantam
Frizzle
Ga NoiG
Hamburg U
Houdan U
Japanese Bantam
Jangmigye
La Flèche U
Malay G
Modern Game
Nankin
Old English Game G
Pekin
Phoenix
Polish U
Rosecomb
Sebright
Serama
Shamo G
Silkie
Sultan
Sumatra
Vorwerk U
Yokohama
Belgian Bearded d’Anvers
Belgian Bearded d’Uccle
Belgian d’Everberg
Booted Bantam
Dutch Bantam
Japanese Bantam
Nankin
Pekin
Rosecomb
Sebright
Serama
Silkie
Black Sex Link (also called Black Stars)
Red Sex Link (also called Red Stars)
ISA Brown
Lohmann Brown
Daisy Belle
Cream Legbar
Cornish-Rock
Easter Egger
Broiler
 
JaneGrey said:
I think this is fine because as you say, you arent killing them for fun, but rather to protect the health (and therefore lives) of your family and pets. I think in every similar thing we do, we should take time to assess the reasons we are doing it. For me personally and meat eating, I came to the conclusion that my tastebuds’ desire for meat was not worth the death of livestock animals. And I say this as a runner.

I understand that some people might not find it feasible to switch to a plant based diet due to allergies, health problems etc. However my hope is that we work more towards finding more and more alternatives to meat in the future.
Click to expand...
AbsolutelyI 👍
 
You said:
Marans
[edit]Germany
Annaberger chicken
Augsburger chicken
Bergischer Long Crower
Bergischer Schlotterkamm
Bielefelder
Deutscher Sperber
Deutsches Reichshuhn
Dresdner chicken
East Frisian Gull
German Faverolles
German Langshan
Hamburg
Kraienköppe (Twentse)
Lakenvelder
Niederrheiner chicken
Pfalz chicken (Pfälzer Kampfhuhn)
Phoenix
Ramelsloher
Rheinlander
Saxonian Chickens
Sundheimer chicken
Thuringian Bearded chicken
Vogtländer chicken
Vorwerk
Westphalian chicken
[edit]Greece
Source [5]
Alonissos island Chicken
Boufunes
Curly Chicken Mutation
Follidotes Chicken
Greek Cuckoo spotted chicken
Hooded Greek Chicken
Chios Fighting Chicke
Kalamata Chicken
Komotini Long Crow Chicken
Lesvos Dwarf Naked Necked Chicken
Lesvos Fillianes Chicken
Milos Island Chicken
Pomak Fighting Chicken
[edit]India
Giri Raja (The Mountain King)
Kalinga Brown
Mumbai Desi
Grama Lakshmi
Naati Kori(Kudla)
Kadaknath
Dwarf
Control Broiler
Aseel
Dalhem Red
Vanaraja (The Forest King)
Gramapriya
Punjab Broiler
[edit]Iceland
Icelandic chicken
[edit]Indonesia
Sumatra cock
Ayam Cemani
Bekisar (interspecific hybrid)
Sumatra (chicken)
Kedu (nationally standardized)
Nunukan/Tawao
Pelung (long-crower, locally standardized)
Ketawa (“laughing” or staccato-crower, local bred from Rappang, South Sulawesi)
Bali (naked-necked chicken)
[edit]Iran
Manx Rumpy (or Rumpless Game)
Orloff [3][6]
[edit]Italy
Leghorn
Ancona
Leghorn
Sicilian Buttercup
[edit]Japan
Japanese Bantam (or Chabo)
Shamo (or Ko-Shamo)
Tomaru
Totenko
Onagadori
[edit]Korea
Gangwon Jaeraedak
Jangmigye
Yeongsan ogye
Han Do
[edit]Kosovo
Kosova Long Crowing Rooster
[edit]Malaysia
Malay
Serama
[edit]Marianas
Saipan Jungle Fowl
[edit]Netherlands
A Barnevelder trio
Barnevelder
Booted Bantam
Dutch Bantam
Hamburg
North Holland Blue
Polish
Welsummer
[edit]New Zealand
Bawu Hawu
New Zealand Junglefowl
Waki Waki Hawa
[edit]Norway
Norwegian Jærhøne
[edit]Pakistan
Asil (or Aseel)
Afghan game fowl
Buff chicken
[edit]Philippines
Philippine Native Chicken
[edit]Poland
Green-legged Chicken
Poland
[edit]Portugal
Pedrês Portuguesa
Amarela
Preta Lusitânica
[edit]Romania
Naked Neck
Transylvanian Naked Neck
[edit]Russia
Orloff
Yurlov Crower
[edit]Serbia
Banat Naked Neck (Banatski gološijan)
Sombor chicken (Somborska kaporka)
Svrljig chicken (Svrljiška kokoš) [7]
[edit]Slovakia
Oravka
[edit]South Africa
Ovambo [8]
Potchefstroom Koekoek [8]
Venda [8]
[edit]Spain
A Minorca rooster
Andalusian
Asturian Painted Hen
Castilian
Catalana or Prat Leonada
Empordanesa
Euskal oiloa
Extremaduran
Flor d’Ametller
Ibiza
Indio de León
Majorca
Minorca
Murciana
Pardo de León
Pedresa
Penedesenca
Pintarrazada
Pita Pinta Asturiana
Serrana de Teruel
Sobrarbe
Spanish game
Sureña
Utrerana
White-Faced Black Spanish
[edit]Switzerland
Appenzeller (Barthühner and Spitzhauben)
Schweizer chicken (Schweizerhuhn)
[edit]Turkey
Sultan
Hint Horoz
Gerze
Ukraine
Poltava
United Kingdom
Dorking
Indian Game (or Cornish)
Ixworth
Madly Blue
Marsh Daisy
Modern Game
Muffed Old English Game
Norfolk Grey
Old English Game
Old English Pheasant Fowl
Orpington
Rosecomb
Scots Dumpy
Scots Grey
Sebright
Sussex
Yokohama
United States
Ameraucana
American Game
Buckeye
Blue hen of delaware
California Gray
California White
Delaware
Dominique
Holland
Iowa Blue
Java
Jersey Giant
Lamona
New Hampshire
Plymouth Rock (or Barred Rock, Rock)
Rhode Island Red
Rhode Island White
Winnebago
Wyandotte
Vietnam
Ac
Ga Noi
Ga Tre
Ameraucana
Ancona
Andalusian
Araucana
Asturian Painted Hen
Barnevelder
Campine
Catalana
Easter Egger
Egyptian Fayoumi
Norwegian Jærhøne
Kraienköppe (Twentse)
Lakenvelder
Leghorn
Marans
Minorca
Orloff
Penedesenca
Sicilian Buttercup
White-Faced Black Spanish
Welsummer
Bresse
Indian Game (or Cornish Game)
Ixworth
Jersey Giant
Australorp
Brahma
Braekel (Brakel)
Buckeye
California Gray
Chantecler
Cubalaya
Derbyshire Redcap
Dominique
Dorking
Faverolles
Holland
Iowa Blue
Java
Jersey Giant
Marsh Daisy
Naked Neck
New Hampshire
Norfolk Grey
Orpington
Plymouth Rock
Poltava
Red Shaver
Rhode Island Red
Rhode Island White
Scots Dumpy
Scots Grey
Sussex
Winnebago
Wyandotte
American Game G
Asil G
Appenzeller U
Barbu de Watermael
Belgian Bearded d’Anvers
Bearded d’Uccle
Belgian d’Everberg
Blue Hen of Delaware G
Booted Bantam
Cochin
Crèvecœur U
Croad Langshan U
Dutch Bantam
Frizzle
Ga NoiG
Hamburg U
Houdan U
Japanese Bantam
Jangmigye
La Flèche U
Malay G
Modern Game
Nankin
Old English Game G
Pekin
Phoenix
Polish U
Rosecomb
Sebright
Serama
Shamo G
Silkie
Sultan
Sumatra
Vorwerk U
Yokohama
Belgian Bearded d’Anvers
Belgian Bearded d’Uccle
Belgian d’Everberg
Booted Bantam
Dutch Bantam
Japanese Bantam
Nankin
Pekin
Rosecomb
Sebright
Serama
Silkie
Black Sex Link (also called Black Stars)
Red Sex Link (also called Red Stars)
ISA Brown
Lohmann Brown
Daisy Belle
Cream Legbar
Cornish-Rock
Easter Egger
Broiler
Click to expand...
What is the point, that the breeds domesticated for food would no longer be bred for food?
 
Brendan said:
Yes, athiests have consciences, we as Catholics know that to be true. But to an athiest, for them to believe that there is ethical behavior would have to admit that either they can enforce their concept on ethics on others, or that what is ethical is defined by general consensus

In the first case, whatever an individual person decides is correct has no bearing on what another person decides for themselves. There is no absolute morality.

The noted atheist philosopher Nietzsche noted that the strong ( supermen\ubermensch) indeed have an obligation to be amoral, as morality is simply a means by which the weak attempt to control the strong.

The other option would be for the atheist to hold that what is ethical is defined by what a majority hold. But that too is indefensible. How many would hold that slavery was moral simply because a majority of people desired it? But that is a position that an atheist would have to hold if he\she was logically consistant.

Finally, there is the argument for ‘the greatest good for the greatest number of people’, this is simply a restating of the same logical fallicy.

How gets to define what ‘good’ is. A Klansman, for example would think that blacks pose a danger to the greatest number ( whites) and therefore would be justified in lynching as many as he could. So the utilitary view is logically faulty, UNLESS there is a absolute judge of morality that is external to everyone. There there DOES exist an eternal definiton of good that is outside the realm of humanity.

But that is a position only a Theist can hold.

Theists can hold differing positions on what the ultimate judge holds to be good (as you noted), but an atheist must, by definition, deny the very existance of such a judge.

An atheist cannot hold to a metaphysical reality, only to physical reality. Therefore, there cannot be an ultimate judge outside of humanity, indeed outside all creation, only a human judge.

But that takes us back to holding what is ethical being defined by either the individual, a majority vote, or enforced on others by ubermensch. There is no other logical alternative.
Click to expand...
I do not disagree with most of what you say above. However, to me, even a Christian, I have chosen to continue to be one because my conscience told me what Christ taught is so right. So God kept me with God. So, an Atheist’s conscience is the abiter of what is right and wrong. It may not be what all ChristiansCatholics agree upon but taking a moral stance against eating meat to follow your conscience is right and ethical.
 
You said:
Marans
[edit]Germany
Annaberger chicken
Augsburger chicken
Bergischer Long Crower
Bergischer Schlotterkamm
Bielefelder
Deutscher Sperber
Deutsches Reichshuhn
Dresdner chicken
East Frisian Gull
German Faverolles
German Langshan
Hamburg
Kraienköppe (Twentse)
Lakenvelder
Niederrheiner chicken
Pfalz chicken (Pfälzer Kampfhuhn)
Phoenix
Ramelsloher
Rheinlander
Saxonian Chickens
Sundheimer chicken
Thuringian Bearded chicken
Vogtländer chicken
Vorwerk
Westphalian chicken
[edit]Greece
Source [5]
Alonissos island Chicken
Boufunes
Curly Chicken Mutation
Follidotes Chicken
Greek Cuckoo spotted chicken
Hooded Greek Chicken
Chios Fighting Chicke
Kalamata Chicken
Komotini Long Crow Chicken
Lesvos Dwarf Naked Necked Chicken
Lesvos Fillianes Chicken
Milos Island Chicken
Pomak Fighting Chicken
[edit]India
Giri Raja (The Mountain King)
Kalinga Brown
Mumbai Desi
Grama Lakshmi
Naati Kori(Kudla)
Kadaknath
Dwarf
Control Broiler
Aseel
Dalhem Red
Vanaraja (The Forest King)
Gramapriya
Punjab Broiler
[edit]Iceland
Icelandic chicken
[edit]Indonesia
Sumatra cock
Ayam Cemani
Bekisar (interspecific hybrid)
Sumatra (chicken)
Kedu (nationally standardized)
Nunukan/Tawao
Pelung (long-crower, locally standardized)
Ketawa (“laughing” or staccato-crower, local bred from Rappang, South Sulawesi)
Bali (naked-necked chicken)
[edit]Iran
Manx Rumpy (or Rumpless Game)
Orloff [3][6]
[edit]Italy
Leghorn
Ancona
Leghorn
Sicilian Buttercup
[edit]Japan
Japanese Bantam (or Chabo)
Shamo (or Ko-Shamo)
Tomaru
Totenko
Onagadori
[edit]Korea
Gangwon Jaeraedak
Jangmigye
Yeongsan ogye
Han Do
[edit]Kosovo
Kosova Long Crowing Rooster
[edit]Malaysia
Malay
Serama
[edit]Marianas
Saipan Jungle Fowl
[edit]Netherlands
A Barnevelder trio
Barnevelder
Booted Bantam
Dutch Bantam
Hamburg
North Holland Blue
Polish
Welsummer
[edit]New Zealand
Bawu Hawu
New Zealand Junglefowl
Waki Waki Hawa
[edit]Norway
Norwegian Jærhøne
[edit]Pakistan
Asil (or Aseel)
Afghan game fowl
Buff chicken
[edit]Philippines
Philippine Native Chicken
[edit]Poland
Green-legged Chicken
Poland
[edit]Portugal
Pedrês Portuguesa
Amarela
Preta Lusitânica
[edit]Romania
Naked Neck
Transylvanian Naked Neck
[edit]Russia
Orloff
Yurlov Crower
[edit]Serbia
Banat Naked Neck (Banatski gološijan)
Sombor chicken (Somborska kaporka)
Svrljig chicken (Svrljiška kokoš) [7]
[edit]Slovakia
Oravka
[edit]South Africa
Ovambo [8]
Potchefstroom Koekoek [8]
Venda [8]
[edit]Spain
A Minorca rooster
Andalusian
Asturian Painted Hen
Castilian
Catalana or Prat Leonada
Empordanesa
Euskal oiloa
Extremaduran
Flor d’Ametller
Ibiza
Indio de León
Majorca
Minorca
Murciana
Pardo de León
Pedresa
Penedesenca
Pintarrazada
Pita Pinta Asturiana
Serrana de Teruel
Sobrarbe
Spanish game
Sureña
Utrerana
White-Faced Black Spanish
[edit]Switzerland
Appenzeller (Barthühner and Spitzhauben)
Schweizer chicken (Schweizerhuhn)
[edit]Turkey
Sultan
Hint Horoz
Gerze
Ukraine
Poltava
United Kingdom
Dorking
Indian Game (or Cornish)
Ixworth
Madly Blue
Marsh Daisy
Modern Game
Muffed Old English Game
Norfolk Grey
Old English Game
Old English Pheasant Fowl
Orpington
Rosecomb
Scots Dumpy
Scots Grey
Sebright
Sussex
Yokohama
United States
Ameraucana
American Game
Buckeye
Blue hen of delaware
California Gray
California White
Delaware
Dominique
Holland
Iowa Blue
Java
Jersey Giant
Lamona
New Hampshire
Plymouth Rock (or Barred Rock, Rock)
Rhode Island Red
Rhode Island White
Winnebago
Wyandotte
Vietnam
Ac
Ga Noi
Ga Tre
Ameraucana
Ancona
Andalusian
Araucana
Asturian Painted Hen
Barnevelder
Campine
Catalana
Easter Egger
Egyptian Fayoumi
Norwegian Jærhøne
Kraienköppe (Twentse)
Lakenvelder
Leghorn
Marans
Minorca
Orloff
Penedesenca
Sicilian Buttercup
White-Faced Black Spanish
Welsummer
Bresse
Indian Game (or Cornish Game)
Ixworth
Jersey Giant
Australorp
Brahma
Braekel (Brakel)
Buckeye
California Gray
Chantecler
Cubalaya
Derbyshire Redcap
Dominique
Dorking
Faverolles
Holland
Iowa Blue
Java
Jersey Giant
Marsh Daisy
Naked Neck
New Hampshire
Norfolk Grey
Orpington
Plymouth Rock
Poltava
Red Shaver
Rhode Island Red
Rhode Island White
Scots Dumpy
Scots Grey
Sussex
Winnebago
Wyandotte
American Game G
Asil G
Appenzeller U
Barbu de Watermael
Belgian Bearded d’Anvers
Bearded d’Uccle
Belgian d’Everberg
Blue Hen of Delaware G
Booted Bantam
Cochin
Crèvecœur U
Croad Langshan U
Dutch Bantam
Frizzle
Ga NoiG
Hamburg U
Houdan U
Japanese Bantam
Jangmigye
La Flèche U
Malay G
Modern Game
Nankin
Old English Game G
Pekin
Phoenix
Polish U
Rosecomb
Sebright
Serama
Shamo G
Silkie
Sultan
Sumatra
Vorwerk U
Yokohama
Belgian Bearded d’Anvers
Belgian Bearded d’Uccle
Belgian d’Everberg
Booted Bantam
Dutch Bantam
Japanese Bantam
Nankin
Pekin
Rosecomb
Sebright
Serama
Silkie
Black Sex Link (also called Black Stars)
Red Sex Link (also called Red Stars)
ISA Brown
Lohmann Brown
Daisy Belle
Cream Legbar
Cornish-Rock
Easter Egger
Broiler
Click to expand...
Somehow I do not think animals mind being extinct.
 
Whitecrayon,

St. Thomas Aquinas wrote it perfectly, I believe.

On the question: “whether it is unlawful to kill any living thing?,” he answers:
There is no sin in using a thing for the purpose for which it is. Now the order of things is such that the imperfect are for the perfect, even as in the process of generation nature proceeds from imperfection to perfection. Hence it is that just as in the generation of a man there is first a living thing, then an animal, and lastly a man, so too things, like the plants, which merely have life, are all alike for animals, and all animals are for man. Wherefore it is not unlawful if man use plants for the good of animals, and animals for the good of man, as the Philosopher states (Polit. i, 3).
Click to expand...
Now the most necessary use would seem to consist in the fact that animals use plants, and men use animals, for food, and this cannot be done unless these be deprived of life: wherefore it is lawful both to take life from plants for the use of animals, and from animals for the use of men. On fact this is in keeping with the commandment of God Himself: for it is written (Genesis 1:29-30): “Behold I have given you every herb . . . and all trees . . . to be your meat, and to all beasts of the earth”: and again (Genesis 9:3): “Everything that moveth and liveth shall be meat to you.”
Click to expand...
From here: newadvent.org/summa/3064.htm#article1 (emphasis mine)

Peace.
 
Quirious said:
What is the point, that the breeds domesticated for food would no longer be bred for food?
Click to expand...
These breeds will become extinct if everyone stops eating them.
It is only farmers who keep these breeds alive.
 
severus68 said:
Somehow I do not think animals mind being extinct.
Click to expand...
Usually people who will not eat animals also worry about them becoming extinct. You are not conforming, severus.

Personally, my stance is that we were told to eat whatever was put in front of us. Whatever means all food, right?
 
severus68 said:
I do not disagree with most of what you say above. However, to me, even a Christian, I have chosen to continue to be one because my conscience told me what Christ taught is so right. So God kept me with God. So, an Atheist’s conscience is the abiter of what is right and wrong. It may not be what all ChristiansCatholics agree upon but taking a moral stance against eating meat to follow your conscience is right and ethical.
Click to expand...
You would :eek:As my memory recalls that you posted in a now closed thread that you admired Peter Singer.I will look up your post soon and show the posters here the link.
 
The_Scott said:
Whitecrayon,

St. Thomas Aquinas wrote it perfectly, I believe.

On the question: “whether it is unlawful to kill any living thing?,” he answers:

From here: newadvent.org/summa/3064.htm#article1 (emphasis mine)

Peace.
Click to expand...
Did Aquinas have anything to say about the necessary and prudent use, vs gluttony and waste? It has been pointed out that the grain alone which feeds our cattle could end starvation throughout the world. Do we have a moral obligation to a more socially responsible allocation of our vast wealth?
 
karoleck said:
You would :eek:As my memory recalls that you posted in a now closed thread that you admired Peter Singer.I will look up your post soon and show the posters here the link.
Click to expand...
Really? Since you posted this which sounds like a threat to show me up, please do so. Really great way to have a discussion.
 
You said:
Usually people who will not eat animals also worry about them becoming extinct. You are not conforming, severus.

Personally, my stance is that we were told to eat whatever was put in front of us. Whatever means all food, right?
Click to expand...
Not conforming to what please? Conservation is not always and not necessarily about animal welfare. Sometimes, its just about trying to make sure our grandchildren get to see all the animals we have seen. I do not want any animal to become extinct but if the world changed and everyone did not eat meat, we would not have anything like the numbers of cows, goats, pigs etc we have now.

Told by whom? Genesis is allegorical but what do you understand from who was to eat what before the Fall? I think God created and wanted a world without any violence, without pain and suffering for all his creatures.
 
severus68 said:
Told by whom? Genesis is allegorical but what do you understand from who was to eat what before the Fall? I think God created and wanted a world without any violence, without pain and suffering for all his creatures.
Click to expand...
Genesis 15 7-12
Exodus 12 21-24
Luke 22 14-15
Luke 24 42-43
Acts 10 9-16

Genesis can be allegorical.
 
severus68 said:
Not conforming to what please? Conservation is not always and not necessarily about animal welfare. Sometimes, its just about trying to make sure our grandchildren get to see all the animals we have seen. I do not want any animal to become extinct but if the world changed and everyone did not eat meat, we would not have anything like the numbers of cows, goats, pigs etc we have now.

Told by whom? Genesis is allegorical but what do you understand from who was to eat what before the Fall? I think God created and wanted a world without any violence, without pain and suffering for all his creatures.
Click to expand...
If nobody ate meat; (a bit random)
Livestock farming would end. No-one will spend money keeping livestock.
All of those hundreds and hundreds of breeds of cattle, pigs and poultry will be lost forever; they took thousands and thousands of years of selective breeding of rare animals to arrive at this point.
Inuit people and Sami people would loose their land and their culture.
The frozen arctic would be uninhabitable, only meat will grow in ice lands.
Nomadic herders all over the world will disappear.
There will be no more woolen fabrics, it is too expensive to shear a sheep more than the price you will get for the fleece. Sheep farmers make their money on the sale of sheep for mutton and lamb.
If all land becomes arable with heavy cropping plants the land will become worn out and drained of essential nutrients. Much marginal land will be left waste as its unfit for crops, but could have been used for animals.
Fresh water will become more polluted because of need for more and more chemical fertilizers.
A drought or floods or disease could destroy most crops for a year leading to famine. Animals are designed to survive harsh conditions.
Much famine would be experienced in very poor countries with very marginal land prone to drought or flooding.
No more leather goods. In earlier times this would mean no parchment and possibly the loss of important documents in a damp European climate.
Animals taste nice.
Bland tasting cereals and boring old vegetables.
Big chemical plants to produce fertilizer, no more free fertilizer - has implications for energy use, higher energy use less energy produced from methane.
Plants need carbon dioxide, fewer animals less carbon dioxide.
What are all the cats and dogs going to eat when rendering plants shut down.
No more animal glue for antique enthusiasts and traditional furniture makers.
Much unemployment as farms lose workers, factories close, vets go out of business.
Economies like Brazil and Argentina go bankrupt.
No eggs, no bakers, no pastry, no cakes etc.
Most of all, humans are able to eat animals, we are omnivores, that is the way we were created.

The Holy Land diet of two thousand years ago included among all the cereals, fruit etc, also roast lamb or goat, the passover lamb, and lots of fish from the sea or the sea of Gallilee.

Anyway heres some bible quotes to finish off. 🙂

Corinthians 10:27
If any of them that believe not, invite you, and you will be willing to go; eat of any thing that is set before you, asking no question for conscience’ sake.

Matthew 6:25
Therefore I say to you, be not solicitous for your life, what you shall eat, nor for your body, what you shall put on. Is not the life more than the meat: and the body more than the raiment?

Luke 10:8
And into what city soever you enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you.

Luke 12:22
And he said to his disciples: Therefore I say to you, be not solicitous for your life, what you shall eat; nor for your body, what you shall put on.
 
You said:
If nobody ate meat; (a bit random)
Livestock farming would end. No-one will spend money keeping livestock.
All of those hundreds and hundreds of breeds of cattle, pigs and poultry will be lost forever; they took thousands and thousands of years of selective breeding of rare animals to arrive at this point.
Inuit people and Sami people would loose their land and their culture.
The frozen arctic would be uninhabitable, only meat will grow in ice lands.
Nomadic herders all over the world will disappear.
There will be no more woolen fabrics, it is too expensive to shear a sheep more than the price you will get for the fleece. Sheep farmers make their money on the sale of sheep for mutton and lamb.
If all land becomes arable with heavy cropping plants the land will become worn out and drained of essential nutrients. Much marginal land will be left waste as its unfit for crops, but could have been used for animals.
Fresh water will become more polluted because of need for more and more chemical fertilizers.
A drought or floods or disease could destroy most crops for a year leading to famine. Animals are designed to survive harsh conditions.
Much famine would be experienced in very poor countries with very marginal land prone to drought or flooding.
No more leather goods. In earlier times this would mean no parchment and possibly the loss of important documents in a damp European climate.
Animals taste nice.
Bland tasting cereals and boring old vegetables.
Big chemical plants to produce fertilizer, no more free fertilizer - has implications for energy use, higher energy use less energy produced from methane.
Plants need carbon dioxide, fewer animals less carbon dioxide.
What are all the cats and dogs going to eat when rendering plants shut down.
No more animal glue for antique enthusiasts and traditional furniture makers.
Much unemployment as farms lose workers, factories close, vets go out of business.
Economies like Brazil and Argentina go bankrupt.
No eggs, no bakers, no pastry, no cakes etc.
Most of all, humans are able to eat animals, we are omnivores, that is the way we were created.

The Holy Land diet of two thousand years ago included among all the cereals, fruit etc, also roast lamb or goat, the passover lamb, and lots of fish from the sea or the sea of Gallilee.

Anyway heres some bible quotes to finish off. 🙂

Corinthians 10:27
If any of them that believe not, invite you, and you will be willing to go; eat of any thing that is set before you, asking no question for conscience’ sake.

Matthew 6:25
Therefore I say to you, be not solicitous for your life, what you shall eat, nor for your body, what you shall put on. Is not the life more than the meat: and the body more than the raiment?

Luke 10:8
And into what city soever you enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you.

Luke 12:22
And he said to his disciples: Therefore I say to you, be not solicitous for your life, what you shall eat; nor for your body, what you shall put on.
Click to expand...
Bolding mine. They taste nice. Hmm ok. Since when has something feeling good or resulting in a pleasant sensation been an acceptable reason itself for doing something, especially in Christian moral theology?
 
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