Knee jerk response to faith alone

[Pat_De]

Let me give you an example. A child who is being baptized is given sanctifying grace.
However, prior to the child being baptized, grace was already given in the form of parents who will want him to be baptized. The parents that God chose for us is an actual grace by which He has enabled our baptism and thus the reception of sanctifying grace.

The reformed leap is not Grace Alone. The reformed leap is Faith Alone.
Grace Alone is actually the Catholic Teaching.
I think a definition of grace is in order here so you will understand what I am getting at.

Grace (gratia, Charis), in general, is a supernatural gift of God to intellectualmen, angels)** for their eternal salvation**, whether the latter be furthered and attained through salutary acts or a state of holiness. creatures.

Everything that God gives to us is for the attainment of our eternal salvation. That is why we say all is grace.

Grace is a teaching of God, way before any Catholic or Protestant. Just a faith alone is also a teaching of God; Hebrews 11 is all about faith alone by His grace and for His glory.
Verse 39 & 40 ***And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us,
*** A child being water baptized receives “sanctifying grace” cannot be shown from Scripture nor the removal of original sin as a result of infant baptism. This is the tradition of men which fails the test against Scripture; the Bereans would reject it after searching the Scriptures.

Also, faith itself is a gift of God. Eph. 2:8

However; if it is all of grace and sprinkled with works, then grace is no longer grace is it? No, according to the Holy Spirit working through the apostle Paul. (Roman 11:6) Works is anything man attributes to the work of his own salvation; anything.

Work=an act, deed, a thing done, any thing accomplished by hand (of man in a Biblical sense)

One can claim “all of grace” and then add works and still call it “all of grace” in relation to true faith, true justification, true sanctification, true redemption and true glorification (Salvation) before men, but not before God. He will see it for what it is and apply His perfect justice appropriately.

See post#135, the last post on page 9 for additional thoughts on some of this.
Also, 2010 catechism states the meritorious works of man, not only for oneself, but for others as well. As one reads 2006 through 2011; you might discern the double-speaking; it is God and not man, but man deserving in the sanctification, then back to God. Assuming anyone could actually interpret this accurately. Man has no merit of his own nor any righteousness of his own before God in any manner whatsoever.(Romans 3:10); the good-works created before the foundation of the world that the Christian would walk in them is an act of God and by the righteousness of Jesus in the new creation in Christ Jesus.

 

[alaindelong]

Whenever I am engaged in apologetic debate with my protestant friends on the subject of justification by faith alone (alone inserted by Luther) I simply ask them to turn to Matthew 25:31-46. This compelling reference refutes faith alone. by leaving Christ unattended through failure to administer to His brethren. They might counter that it is sins of omission that send the “goats” to hell. That is true, However these are also works of love for there is a certain physicallty in feeding the hungry etc. Anyway you look at this Matthew is about works of true Christian charity done not for our glory, but for the glory of God and His Kingdom. When we see the face of Christ in all our neighbors who need our charity , these works become efficacious and salvific. At the last judgement we all want to be on Christ’s left hand with the “sheep”.

Through the salvific action of Christ’s death on the cross we are all reconciled to the Father and the gates of heaven are now open to us all. However faith alone will never get us into heaven for satan himself has faith in God, after all the devil was a seraphim angel the closest angelic hyerarchy to God. If you love Me then feed my sheep. I think we are in agreement that faith apart from works is not going to get us into heaven. Matthew 25:31-46

 

[De_Maria]

Grace is a teaching of God, way before any Catholic or Protestant.

Grace certainly is. But not Grace alone.

Just a faith alone is also a teaching of God;

Yeah. God says its a bad thing:
James 2:17
**Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being ****alone.
**

Hebrews 11 is all about faith alone by His grace and for His glory.

Show me one instance of the term “faith alone” in Hebrews 11.

Verse 39 & 40 And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us,

****That’s Catholic Teaching.

A child being water baptized receives “sanctifying grace” cannot be shown from Scripture nor the removal of original sin as a result of infant baptism.

But Scripture does not teach everything. And Scripture points to the Church as the Pillar and Foundation of Truth:
1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God,** the pillar and ground of the **truth.
This is the tradition of men which fails the test against Scripture; the Bereans would reject it after searching the Scriptures.

Scripture says the Church will even teach the truths of God in heaven:
Ephesians 3:10
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

On the contrary, the Bereans were taught by the Church. Have you not read in Scripture?
Acts 17:10-12 (King James Version)

** 10And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.**
11These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
12Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

Note that the Church came to Berea in the persons of Sts. Paul and Silas. Note that they preached to the Bereans. And note that the Bereans searched the only Scriptures available, the Old Testament. Thus, it is clear that they were convinced by Sts. Paul and Silas, to keep the Traditions of Jesus Christ. And it is these Traditions they sought to confirm in the Old Testament. And therefore Catholic doctrine is proven correct.

Also, faith itself is a gift of God. Eph. 2:8

Another Catholic doctrine.

However; if it is all of grace and sprinkled with works, then grace is no longer grace is it? No, according to the Holy Spirit working through the apostle Paul. (Roman 11:6) Works is anything man attributes to the work of his own salvation; anything.

St. Paul seems to have no problem with our saving ourself by our works.
1 Timothy 4:16
**Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both ****save **thyself, and them that hear thee.

CONT’D

 

[De_Maria]

CONT’D

Work=an act, deed, a thing done, any thing accomplished by hand (of man in a Biblical sense)

Amen!

Revelation 14:13
And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; **and their works do **follow them.

One can claim “all of grace” and then add works and still call it “all of grace” in relation to true faith, true justification, true sanctification, true redemption and true glorification (Salvation) before men, but not before God. He will see it for what it is and apply His perfect justice appropriately.

Correct. And God will reward such a man with eternal life:
Romans 2:7
**To them who by patient **continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Whereas those who claim to know God and even call Jesus Christ, Lord. But who neglect to do good to their fellow men. They will be cast out into the darkness:

Matt 25
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand,** Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: ** 42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: **
43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. **
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

FAITH ALONE IS DEAD

See post#135, the last post on page 9 for additional thoughts on some of this.
Also, 2010 catechism states the meritorious works of man, not only for oneself, but for others as well. As one reads 2006 through 2011; you might discern the double-speaking; it is God and not man, but man deserving in the sanctification, then back to God. Assuming anyone could actually interpret this accurately. Man has no merit of his own nor any righteousness of his own before God in any manner whatsoever.(Romans 3:10); the good-works created before the foundation of the world that the Christian would walk in them is an act of God and by the righteousness of Jesus in the new creation in Christ Jesus.

Who are you to judge before God judges?
Hebrews 6:10**
For ****God is not unrighteous to **forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

It is God who judges. It is God who requires that we obey Him. And if we obey Him He will be pleased. And His pleasure is what we seek:
Hebrews 11:6
**But without **faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

So, you go on saying that your works are not worthy of merit therefore you don’t need to do them. But we will continue to do them because God has said it is our duty:
Luke 17:10
**So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our **duty to do.

Oh and in hour avatar, you say that religion is not important?! Religion is indeed the most important work of man. Because it is in right religion that one learns to ADORE God and that is most right and just to do. The man that does not practice religion does not adore God but makes an idol of himself.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

See #3; Protestants call this double-speak. You say it is not of works, which is what man contributes, then you proceed to show us your meritorious works by Sacraments. you can’t have it both ways;

“You can’t have it both ways,” That is Protestant speak. It is a form of speech you have in common with atheists. Yes, indeed we can have it both ways, because God did it.

Let us see, is Jesus God and Man? Both/and
Do we obey God and the Church? Both/and
Do we keep Scripture and Tradition? Both/and

What about Protestants? Do they believe Jesus is God and Man? No. Not all. They can’t believe that He can be both at the same time. They believe in EITHER/OR.

Do they obey God and the Church? Nope. EITHER/OR
Do they keep Scripture and Tradition? Nope. EITHER/OR

But guess what? God can have His cake and eat it too!

we’ll you can and do before yourselves, but that is it. No one else sees it. Go to the catechism under “Merits” and look at 2010 or 2009, can’t recall which one, but you will see the works salvation.

I don’t have to go that far. ITS IN SCRIPTURE!
Philippians 2:12
**Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own **salvation with fear and trembling.

Galatians 5:6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision;** but faith which ****worketh by **love.

Romans 2:7
**To them who by patient **continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

James 2:24
**Ye see then how that by works a man is ****justified, and not by ****faith **only.

Yeah, read it and weep! Your Pastors are deceiving you. Works are a necessary component to salvation. If you don’t work for God, YOU WON’T BE SAVED.

Christians are taught that God justifies a man when He true believes, a gift of God.

Yeah and kids who don’t study, don’t graduate. And kids who don’t graduate, DON’T GET GRADUATIONS GIFTS.

What?! A gift that is based on performance? That’s right. Not all gifts are unconditionally free. In fact, most gifts aren’t. God is not different. God gives the gift of salvation to those who obey Him and do His Will:
Romans 2:13
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God,** but the doers of the law shall be **justified.

Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, **he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that **obey him;

Matthew 7:21
**Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the ****will of my ****Father which is in **heaven.

God declares a man righteous in a forensic sense and also that Christs righteousness is supernaturally imputed into the believers account. So just as the Father saw the sins of man on Jesus and therefore poured out His wrath due to man onto Him; when the Father sees the Christian he sees the righteousness of Christ. Then the conforming to the image of Jesus begins immediately, which the Christian calls sanctification process that lasts a life time until we receive our full redemption in Christ Jesus. All of the entire process is a gift or granted by God, which is why people hate the doctrine of election because it basically says that before time began God selected who would be in heaven and by default, who would not.

God does declare a man righteous in the forensic sense. That is why God is our Judge. But God also INFUSES grace into the just man when the just man approaches the fountain of grace known as the Sacrament of Baptism. Wherein God infuses Sacramental Sanctifying Grace into the man’s soul, washing it, regenerating it and renewing it by the action of the Holy Spirit and accomplishing the creation of the New Man, which is Born Again in the image of Christ.

Whereas Catholics reject election

Says who?

and believe that there is some good in man that would chose God as well as just walk away from God and do this back and forth throughout a lifetime.

We believe God gave man a free will, true.

This is a form of semi-Pelagianism or quasi-Pelagianism. The Pelagians did not believe in original sin and that man had some of his own righteousness; wheras you will affirm original sin, but through infant baptism, a work, the original sin is wiped away; so thus a semi-Pelagianistic and unbiblical.

On the contrary. First of all, you don’t believe true Christianity and are not qualified to determine what is heresy.
Second, it is the Church which identified semi Pelagianism and condemned it.
Third, Scripture teaches that a man is regenerated and renewed in Baptism. Therefore, Baptism washes away original sin.

CONT’D

 

[De_Maria]

CONT’D

People don’t like election because they believe it is unfair and that would mean God is unjust; whereas if not for election on one would be in heaven.

1. The Catholic Church teaches election.
2. But Calvin teaches a sort of election which makes God unjust.
3. Scripture says:
   1 Timothy 2:4
   **Who will have all **men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

But you don’t believe Scripture and therefore add to the Word of God your tradition of men which is inconsistent with Scripture.

Just read Romans 3 beginning in verse 9 and see the condition of man because of the cancer of sin.

Read Romans 5 and you will see that not all men are in that condition:
Romans 5:14
**Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of ****Adam’s **transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Also, Eph 2:1-4 will tell you that you are spiritually dead**,**

On the contrary, it is not we who are spiritually dead, but you.
1 Corinthians 2:14
**But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are **spiritually discerned.

which a dead person can’t respond to anything that has to do with God, then verse 3 tells us how God saves the sinner; just as the second part of Romans 3 gives the justification by faith apart from any works or anything to do with mans actions.

This is where you are deceived. All of that is Catholic Teaching. Within the Sacraments, we rest of our works and God SANCTIFIES US.

This is why St. Paul ends Romans 3 with these words:
31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

In other words, we still have to work. Because only those who keep the law will be justified. Go back one chapter and read this:
Romans 2:13
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, **but the doers of the law shall be **justified.

1 Corinthians 7:19
**Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the **commandments of God.

I know I am going to get hammered here, but I am answering your question and you can read the Scripture for yourself and see if these things are true or not.

You know that you’re going to get hammered because you know that your Pastors teach error. I have read Scripture many times.

Elect, predestined,foreknew, chosen. called

Keep in mind that “called” can be a general calling such as “many are called, but few are chosen” or it can be an effectual call (salvation calling) such as 1Peter2:9, 1 Peter 3:9 and Romans 8:28-30. Foreknew is not God looking down the corridor of time; it is knowing beforehand and is similar to predestined, which is predetermined before the foundation of the world or before time began or in eternity past.

Like I said; election is all over and much more could be said, but people hate it primarily because they do not know the nature of God as being just and the nature of man’s cancer called sin. If not for election, no one would chose God and therefore no one would be in heaven and God would be just in sending everyone to hell for all have sinned and fallen short and not one seeks after God - see Romans 3:9 onward. So the clear evidence is there but man can’t let go of self, which is why few find and fewer that do find are able to enter by the narrow gate. Jesus said; deny yourself (get rid of pride, self-righteousness or die to self), pick up your cross (be willing to do anything for your MASTER even if it means death, and follow Me. Most can’t get past step 1…sad as it is.

You don’t understand election. But stick around. There are many here who can teach you. And if they can’t, I can.

In the meantime, let’s continue talking about the OP. We’ve got plenty of time to get around to election. I have always found it is easier to eat an elephant one bite at a time.

Thanks for your response,

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Through the salvific action of Christ’s death on the cross we are all reconciled to the Father and the gates of heaven are now open to us all. However faith alone will never get us into heaven for satan himself has faith in God, after all the devil was a seraphim angel the closest angelic hyerarchy to God. If you love Me then feed my sheep. I think we are in agreement that faith apart from works is not going to get us into heaven. Matthew 25:31-46

Yes. But this sort of gives me a segway back to the OP.

My point here is this. To say that in the Sacraments, we rest of our works, is not to say that in the Sacraments we are justified by faith alone.

Our justification, initially, begins by an unmerited gift of grace from God. Then, we cooperating with this gift exercise our faith and begin to apply ourselves to our justification by good works. Making changes in our habits and exchanging sinful behaviour for virtuous deeds.

Then, in the Sacraments, we lay aside our works, temporarily, in order that God may wash our souls with Sanctifying grace and thus regenerating and renewing us by the action of the Holy Spirit and thus being born again in the Image of God.

Does that make sense?

 

[Cat_Herder]

Yes. But this sort of gives me a segway back to the OP.

My point here is this. To say that in the Sacraments, we rest of our works, is not to say that in the Sacraments we are justified by faith alone.

Our justification, initially, begins by an unmerited gift of grace from God. Then, we cooperating with this gift exercise our faith and begin to apply ourselves to our justification by good works. Making changes in our habits and exchanging sinful behaviour for virtuous deeds.

Then, in the Sacraments, we lay aside our works, temporarily, in order that God may wash our souls with Sanctifying grace and thus regenerating and renewing us by the action of the Holy Spirit and thus being born again in the Image of God.

Does that make sense?

Well, the Sacraments are works–but the worker is Jesus Christ, not the sinner. When people talk about “faith” and “works” they are referring to the sinner’s faith and works. Because Christ actually works in the Sacraments, those terms break down when used to describe them. The Sacraments are only describable in the language of grace.

My confirmation class was tonight (where I am an instructor). A couple of students stayed after class and asked me why the (Calvinist) Protestant churches have rejected the Sacraments, in particular the baptism of infants. I then drew a diagram on the whiteboard that looked like this:

God
…
…–Grace
…
…
…Sinner

I then described “faith alone” like so:

God
…
…–Grace
…
…
…----------- Faith Alone

…Sinner

Essentially the “Bible alone”/“faith alone” churches have erected a barrier between God and the sinner, through which grace can only pass if the sinner has “faith” (usually defined as reciting the Sinner’s Prayer, which is not in the Bible.)

This completely excludes salvation for those who do not have the use of reason: infants and victims of abortion, the mentally retarded, as well as those with no access to a missionary or Bible, etc. If “faith alone” is true, then Jesus did not truly die for “the world,” (Cf. Jn 3:16) and God does not truly desire for “all men to be saved” (Cf. 1 Tim 2:4). Calvinism and its double predestination then rear their ugly head, but now we can clearly see who are not among the “elect,” and it is an ugly sight that does not square with Christ’s insistence that the little ones be brought to him (Matthew 19:14) and that faith is ultimately given through the action of the Holy Spirit, not of men. (1 Cor 12:9).

Essentially Calvinism and “faith alone” put arbitrary limits on the graces poured out by the Holy Spirit.

 

[benedictus2]

Thanks for responding. I’m considering the idea of salvation by works alone here. In the past I’ve claimed that salvation by faith alone is just as bad as salvation by works alone.

I’ve been mulling this over especially in my discussions with JonNC and I am convinced that Faith Alone is completely wrong. There is nothing in the Bible that supports this.

And yet, from out of the mouth of God Himself - Jesus says that we are judged by our works. Whereas we qualify faith by saying works is always necessary or else it is dead faith, Christ does not make this qualification as regards works when He said feed the hungry, clothe the naked because according to Him, when you do that, you do that to Him.

I know what you are saying is true. The Church teaches that those who have not heard of Him MAY still be saved. But I’m trying to find out whether we can teach that expressly. After all, if we say that one is saved if he doesn’t know Christ, then what is the sense in teaching Christ?

Because in doing so we are obeying His Commandment and that is extremely important. Obedience.

When Peter asked Our Lord about John, Jesus said that is no concern of yours. Jesus told him to follow and that is all that Peter should care about.

Also, Christ has to be proclaimed to dispel the erroneous beliefs that people have. Christ has to be proclaimed so that people will know that God is love. Christ has to be proclaimed so that we will know the Truth.

If God wants to save those who do not know the truth, that is His business. Our is to follow Him and His commandments.

Tha aim is to gather all people to Him through the proclamation of the Gospel. He said One day there will be One Flock and One Shepherd. He also said that there are also sheep that do not belong to this flock and this too He must gather.

 

[benedictus2]

**Grace is a teaching of God, way before any Catholic **or Protestant. Just a faith alone is also a teaching of God; Hebrews 11 is all about faith alone by His grace and for His glory.
Verse 39 & 40 ***And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us,
*** A child being water baptized receives “sanctifying grace” cannot be shown from Scripture nor the removal of original sin as a result of infant baptism. This is the tradition of men which fails the test against Scripture; the Bereans would reject it after searching the Scriptures.

Also, faith itself is a gift of God. Eph. 2:8

However; if it is all of grace and sprinkled with works, then grace is no longer grace is it? No, according to the Holy Spirit working through the apostle Paul. (Roman 11:6) Works is anything man attributes to the work of his own salvation; anything.

Work=an act, deed, a thing done, any thing accomplished by hand (of man in a Biblical sense)

One can claim “all of grace” and then add works and still call it “all of grace” in relation to true faith, true justification, true sanctification, true redemption and true glorification (Salvation) before men, but not before God. He will see it for what it is and apply His perfect justice appropriately.

See post#135, the last post on page 9 for additional thoughts on some of this.
Also, 2010 catechism states the meritorious works of man, not only for oneself, but for others as well. As one reads 2006 through 2011; you might discern the double-speaking; it is God and not man, but man deserving in the sanctification, then back to God. Assuming anyone could actually interpret this accurately. Man has no merit of his own nor any righteousness of his own before God in any manner whatsoever.(Romans 3:10); the good-works created before the foundation of the world that the Christian would walk in them is an act of God and by the righteousness of Jesus in the new creation in Christ Jesus.

I hope you see the major error in your first statement here.

You say that Grace is a teaching of God before any Catholic or Protestant **then proceed to prove your point from the Bible which happens to have come from the Catholic Church!

**Sorry but try again.

 

[De_Maria]

Well, the Sacraments are works–but the worker is Jesus Christ, not the sinner. When people talk about “faith” and “works” they are referring to the sinner’s faith and works. Because Christ actually works in the Sacraments, those terms break down when used to describe them. The Sacraments are only describable in the language of grace.

My confirmation class was tonight (where I am an instructor). A couple of students stayed after class and asked me why the (Calvinist) Protestant churches have rejected the Sacraments, in particular the baptism of infants. I then drew a diagram on the whiteboard that looked like this:

God
…
…–Grace
…
…
…Sinner

I then described “faith alone” like so:

God
…
…–Grace
…
…
…----------- Faith Alone

…Sinner

Essentially the “Bible alone”/“faith alone” churches have erected a barrier between God and the sinner, through which grace can only pass if the sinner has “faith” (usually defined as reciting the Sinner’s Prayer, which is not in the Bible.)

This completely excludes salvation for those who do not have the use of reason: infants and victims of abortion, the mentally retarded, as well as those with no access to a missionary or Bible, etc. If “faith alone” is true, then Jesus did not truly die for “the world,” (Cf. Jn 3:16) and God does not truly desire for “all men to be saved” (Cf. 1 Tim 2:4). Calvinism and its double predestination then rear their ugly head, but now we can clearly see who are not among the “elect,” and it is an ugly sight that does not square with Christ’s insistence that the little ones be brought to him (Matthew 19:14) and that faith is ultimately given through the action of the Holy Spirit, not of men. (1 Cor 12:9).

Essentially Calvinism and “faith alone” put arbitrary limits on the graces poured out by the Holy Spirit.

You are absolutely correct. But lets not mix apples and oranges.

The justification of the infant and the person who has not achieved the age of reason is by grace through the faith of the Church.

But, the OP is about the justification of the Adult, Trent Session 6,Chapter V, VIII and X.

And the point I’m trying to make, is much like what you said in that the sinner does no work during the Sacraments. He only believes. God does the work.

Please comment further on this topic.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

I’ve been mulling this over especially in my discussions with JonNC and I am convinced that Faith Alone is completely wrong. There is nothing in the Bible that supports this.

And yet, from out of the mouth of God Himself - Jesus says that we are judged by our works. Whereas we qualify faith by saying works is always necessary or else it is dead faith, Christ does not make this qualification as regards works when He said feed the hungry, clothe the naked because according to Him, when you do that, you do that to Him.

Because in doing so we are obeying His Commandment and that is extremely important. Obedience.

When Peter asked Our Lord about John, Jesus said that is no concern of yours. Jesus told him to follow and that is all that Peter should care about.

Also, Christ has to be proclaimed to dispel the erroneous beliefs that people have. Christ has to be proclaimed so that people will know that God is love. Christ has to be proclaimed so that we will know the Truth.

If God wants to save those who do not know the truth, that is His business. Our is to follow Him and His commandments.

Tha aim is to gather all people to Him through the proclamation of the Gospel. He said One day there will be One Flock and One Shepherd. He also said that there are also sheep that do not belong to this flock and this too He must gather.

Very good answer.
Luke 17:10
I think not. So you also, when you shall have done all these things that are commanded you, say: We are unprofitable servants; we have done that which we ought to do.

 

[Pat_De]

Grace certainly is. But not Grace alone.

Yeah. God says its a bad thing:
James 2:17
**Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being ****alone.
**
Show me one instance of the term “faith alone” in Hebrews 11.

Show me one instance of Roman Catholicism, Confessional, Infant Baptism, Mass; at least faith “alone” is so implicit all over the OT & NT that it is undeniable except for those who cannot understand the Scripture for the very reason the Bible states.

As far as James if your interpretation was correct, then you make the Scripture contradict itself from the words of Paul and thus we better just toss it aside, but since James is comparing true faith against a false faith; whereas the true faith will result in good works. Why? Because God prepared beforehand so the man of God, the Christian, would walk in them.

But Scripture does not teach everything. And Scripture points to the Church as the Pillar and Foundation of Truth:

Actually you need to clean up your translation; the church of Jesus is the pillar and support of the truth with Jesus as the foundation, not Peter nor any other apostle, but Jesus according to God.

Scripture says the Church will even teach the truths of God in heaven:

What church? we have already established that Roman Catholic church is nowhere to be found in Scripture; so it must be the church Jesus is building and the scripture says is yet to be revealed. Oh we see church building and there are people in them, but according to Scripture many are not Christians.

On the contrary, the Bereans were taught by the Church. Have you not read in Scripture?

So now the church is Paul and Silas? Please can’t you do a little better than that? Not to mention they searched the Scriptures, which means they tested what they received against the Word of God; something you might try.

Note that the Church came to Berea in the persons of Sts. Paul and Silas. Note that they preached to the Bereans. And note that the Bereans searched the only Scriptures available, the Old Testament. Thus, it is clear that they were convinced by Sts. Paul and Silas, to keep the Traditions of Jesus Christ. And it is these Traditions they sought to confirm in the Old Testament. And therefore Catholic doctrine is proven correct.

What did Jesus say to the Jews? you search the Scriptures because in them you think you have eternal life, but it is them that speak of me. (paraphrased) Jesus teaching and tall of the NT is the revealing of the mysteries concerning the person of Christ and the Gospel. God has always saved the same, by faith in God and not of any human work, ceremony or religion. If He has changed the way He saves, then God is a liar because He does not change does He?

St. Paul seems to have no problem with our saving ourself by our works.
1 Timothy 4:16
**Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both ****save **thyself, and them that hear thee.

CONT’D

So now Timothy is saving himself and other that hear him; man centered and thus taken out of context for God has said that out faith, repentance, justification, redemption, sanctification, perseverance are gifts or granted by God. All of God and none of man; read Romans 3 beginning in verse 9 and see what man; left to himself would do or Eph. 2:1-3 and tell me the characteristics of a dead man are. Why do Catholics deny the doctrine of Election?

 

[Pat_De]

And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; **and their works do **follow them.
Correct. And God will reward such a man with eternal life:
Romans 2:7
**To them who by patient **continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Whereas those who claim to know God and even call Jesus Christ, Lord. But who neglect to do good to their fellow men. They will be cast out into the darkness:

Matt 25
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you**, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. **
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

FAITH ALONE IS DEAD
Who are you to judge before God judges?
Hebrews 6:10**
For ****God is not unrighteous to **forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

It is God who judges. It is God who requires that we obey Him. And if we obey Him He will be pleased. And His pleasure is what we seek:
Hebrews 11:6
**But without **faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

So, you go on saying that your works are not worthy of merit therefore you don’t need to do them. But we will continue to do them because God has said it is our duty:
Luke 17:10

Sincerely,

De Maria

Here is the problem besides context. I’ll give you three sets of passages to rebuke all you have just posted. Oh, religion is man at his worst; a religious person would be better to be an atheist in ignorance than to have a form of Christianity and deny the power of it. Who are the people on the broad road? Religious people.

The Christian was created for the glory of God in Christ; He is glorified in the display of His love and the display of His wrath. Religion was created by man to steal the glory due exclusively to Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:4-10
**But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly {places} in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
**
Is he speaking to the religious works-based salvationist or the Christian who acknowledges the total sovereignty of God in salvation?

1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

What is Paul saying here; they were very religious, but they were missing something; what was it? They did not know the righteousness of God and therefore did not subject themselves to His righteousness, but instead created their own righteousness. See the problem? What is God’s righteousness? Jesus Christ

Galatians 1:6-9
***I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is {really} not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed! ***

If you read Romans 3:9-20, you might see that if not for election, not one person would be in heaven because a dead person (Eph2:1-3) and the cancer of sin (Ro. 3) is so bad that no one would seek after God; all would reject Him, which is why they are responsible for going to hell. If God did not remove the blinders for the elect to display His love; then there would be none in heaven. I praise God that 1) He is totally sovereign in salvation because left an ounce to myself I would blow it nor sustain it 2) He opened my eyes to see myself as a wretch I was before He made me a new creation in Christ Jesus!

Don’t tell me I am saying works are not important because God said: ***For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. ***

 

[Pat_De]

“You can’t have it both ways,” That is Protestant speak. It is a form of speech you have in common with atheists. Yes, indeed we can have it both ways, because God did it.

Let us see, is Jesus God and Man? Both/and
Do we obey God and the Church? Both/and
Do we keep Scripture and Tradition? Both/and

What about Protestants? Do they believe Jesus is God and Man? No. Not all. They can’t believe that He can be both at the same time. They believe in EITHER/OR.

Do they obey God and the Church? Nope. EITHER/OR
Do they keep Scripture and Tradition? Nope. EITHER/OR

But guess what? God can have His cake and eat it too!

I don’t have to go that far. ITS IN SCRIPTURE!
Philippians 2:12
**Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own **salvation with fear and trembling.

Galatians 5:6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision;** but faith which ****worketh by **love.

Romans 2:7
**To them who by patient **continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

James 2:24
**Ye see then how that by works a man is **justified, and not by **faith **only.

Yeah, read it and weep! Your Pastors are deceiving you. Works are a necessary component to salvation. If you don’t work for God, YOU WON’T BE SAVED.

Yeah and kids who don’t study, don’t graduate. And kids who don’t graduate, DON’T GET GRADUATIONS GIFTS.

What?! A gift that is based on performance? That’s right. Not all gifts are unconditionally free. In fact, most gifts aren’t. God is not different. God gives the gift of salvation to those who obey Him and do His Will:
Romans 2:13
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God,** but the doers of the law shall be **justified.

Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, **he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that **obey him;

Matthew 7:21
**Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the ****will of my ****Father which is in **heaven.

God does declare a man righteous in the forensic sense. That is why God is our Judge. But God also INFUSES grace into the just man when the just man approaches the fountain of grace known as the Sacrament of Baptism. Wherein God infuses Sacramental Sanctifying Grace into the man’s soul, washing it, regenerating it and renewing it by the action of the Holy Spirit and accomplishing the creation of the New Man, which is Born Again in the image of Christ.

Says who?

We believe God gave man a free will, true.

On the contrary. First of all, you don’t believe true Christianity and are not qualified to determine what is heresy.
Second, it is the Church which identified semi Pelagianism and condemned it.
Third, Scripture teaches that a man is regenerated and renewed in Baptism. Therefore, Baptism washes away original sin.

CONT’D

I’ll address your errors tomorrow; Lord willing, I will say the only free-will you have is that of one’s nature and that is sin; so pick your sin; unless God has moved and has done the regenerative work of salvation; man cannot do anything good in His sight.

 

[De_Maria]

Show me one instance of Roman Catholicism,

Roman Catholic is the pejorative which Luther used to describe the Catholic Church. Many of us accept it because it is a convenient term to use. But the official title of the Catholic Church is THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

However, although the term “Catholic Church” is not found in Scripture. The Catholic Church is certainly described in Scripture.

Confessional,

Neither is the word “pew”. Yet you have many in your Church buildings. And although we use “confessionals” as convenient places within which to sit and express our repentance for our sins, a process which is known as confession. And process is certainly mentioned in Scripture:
1 John 1:9
**If we confess our ****sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our **sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

James 5:16
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

And the Church is certainly given the authority to forgive the sins thus confessed:
John 20:23
**Whose soever sins ye remit, they are ****remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye ****retain, they are **retained.

Infant Baptism,

**

Acts 16:15**
**And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.
**
1 Corinthians 1:16
**And I baptized also the ****household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I **baptized any other.

Colossians 2:11
**In whom also ye are circumcised with the **circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Mass;

Acts 2:42
And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of **bread, and in prayers.
**
Romans 15:6
**That ye may with one ****mind and ****one **mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 11:26
**For as often as ye eat this ****bread, and ****drink this **cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.

at least faith “alone” is so implicit all over the OT & NT that it is undeniable except for those who cannot understand the Scripture for the very reason the Bible states.

You can’t provide even one verse where it is implied. Yet it is explicitly condemned:
James 2:17
**Even so faith, if it hath not works, is ****dead, being ****alone.
**

As far as James if your interpretation was correct, then you make the Scripture contradict itself from the words of Paul

Although perhaps St. James thinks he is contradicting St. Paul, the fact is that they don’t.

St. Paul is talking about the Catholic Teaching of a man’s attitude in the Sacraments, which are the work of God. Within which, we rest of our works and are sanctified by the Holy Spirit. All we do is have faith in God’s promises.

Whereas St. James thinks that St. Paul is denying the basic and more ancient mode of justification which is by man’s efforts to please God. In other words, by faith and works.

and thus we better just toss it aside,

Why? They are both correct.

but since James is comparing true faith against a false faith; whereas the true faith will result in good works. Why? Because God prepared beforehand so the man of God, the Christian, would walk in them.

Amen! But what is the difference between the Old and the New Testament?

This is what Protestants have failed to discern. In the New Testament, we are given the promise of becoming children of God and receiving the Holy Spirit, IF WE ARE BAPTIZED.

The washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit was not available to the Jew. It is only possible through the Sacrament of Faith commonly known as Baptism.

CONT’D

 

[De_Maria]

CONT’D REMARKS TO PAT DE

Actually you need to clean up your translation; the church of Jesus is the pillar and support of the truth with Jesus as the foundation, not Peter nor any other apostle, but Jesus according to God.

Then I guess I ought to discard this verse:
Matthew 16:18
**And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my **church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

And this one:
Ephesians 2:20
**And are built upon the foundation of the **apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

What church? we have already established that Roman Catholic church is nowhere to be found in Scripture;

That is what you claimed but I proved you wrong. And there are more signs of the Catholic Church in Scripture.

Which Church has one Pastor assigned by Jesus Christ?
John 21:17
**He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my ****sheep.
**
Which Church feeds us the Body and Blood of our Lord?
John 6:56
**He that eateth my ****flesh, and ****drinketh my ****blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
**
Which Church holds the Traditions?
2 Thessalonians 2:15
**Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the **traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Which Church holds matrimony as an indissoluble union which mirrors the union of Christ and Church?
Ephesians 5:32
**This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning ****Christ and the **church.

Matthew 19:9
And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

etc. etc.

so it must be the church Jesus is building and the scripture says is yet to be revealed. Oh we see church building and there are people in them, but according to Scripture many are not Christians.

Show me from Scripture.

So now the church is Paul and Silas? Please can’t you do a little better than that? Not to mention they searched the Scriptures, which means they tested what they received against the Word of God; something you might try.

I’m the one quoting Scripture. And yes, St. Paul and St. Silas were representing the Church. Both were elders of the CATHOLIC Church. It is they who were teaching the Good News of Jesus Christ and thus putting into practice the Tradition we call MAGISTERIUM. The Teaching Authority of the Church was obeying Jesus’ command to teach. NOT TO PASS OUT BIBLES.

What did Jesus say to the Jews? you search the Scriptures because in them you think you have eternal life, but it is them that speak of me. (paraphrased)

And the Church is the body of Christ. At the time that Jesus said that, HE was the sole representative of the Church HE would form. And HE told the Jews that they COULD NOT UNDERSTAND THE SCRIPTURES.

That’s not exactly Scripture alone. As Scripture alone assumes that everyone can understand the Scriptures.

Jesus teaching and tall of the NT is the revealing of the mysteries concerning the person of Christ and the Gospel.

Yeah. But which of those did Jesus’ write down?

CONT’D

 

[De_Maria]

CONT’D RESPONSE TO PAT DE

God has always saved the same, by faith in God and not of any human work,

But God has never saved any who don’t work in obedience to Him.

Deuteronomy 5:29
**O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my **commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

ceremony or religion.

In fact, God commanded ceremony. Have you not read the books of Exodus and Deuteronomy?

If He has changed the way He saves, then God is a liar because He does not change does He?

God hasn’t changed. It is Protestants who have changed the Word of God.

So now Timothy is saving himself and other that hear him;

You deny the Scripture?

man centered and thus taken out of context for God has said that out faith, repentance, justification, redemption, sanctification, perseverance are gifts or granted by God.

And God says:
1 Timothy 4:16
**Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both ****save **thyself, and them that hear thee.

And:
James 5:20
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

And:
Colossians 1:24 (King James Version)

24Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church:

All of God and none of man; read Romans 3 beginning in verse 9 and see what man; left to himself would do or Eph. 2:1-3 and tell me the characteristics of a dead man are. Why do Catholics deny the doctrine of Election?

We don’t. Scripture says:
1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

It is you, especially Calvinists, but also the rest of the Protestants, who deny the true doctrine of election.

Let us proceed to examine this doctrine. Scripture says:
2 Peter 1:10
**Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election **sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Therefore, it is within man’s power make his calling and election sure by DOING THESE THINGS.

What things are they?
**4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. **** 5And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; **
** 6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; **
** 7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. **
** 8For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. **
** 9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. **

That sounds like a whole list of RIGHTEOUS WORKS.

But please, correct me if I’m wrong. I’d also appreciate your posting at least a portion of a Scripture with an attempt to explain your understanding.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[Pat_De]

“You can’t have it both ways,” That is Protestant speak. It is a form of speech you have in common with atheists. Yes, indeed one can have it both ways, because God did it.

If in the context I used in the previous post, not as used below; then you can before men and do, but not so before God.

What about Protestants? Do they believe Jesus is God and Man? No. Not all. They can’t believe that He can be both at the same time. They believe in EITHER/OR.
Do they obey God and the Church? Nope. EITHER/OR
Do they keep Scripture and Tradition? Nope. EITHER/OR

Let’s talk about a Christian; rather than religiosity. A Christian is regenerated by the grace of God, justified by the grace of God, sanctified by the grace of God, redeemed by the blood and sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. The Christian walks in the good works that God also prepared before the foundation of the world. The Christian grows in faith, love and obedience to the commands of the Lord Jesus according to the will of the Father. The Christian grows in repentance, prayer, and holiness because of the guiding and work of the holy Spirit.

Christians are the true church that Jesus himself is building and lives evermore to daily make intercession on behalf of His sheep and His sheep have yet to be revealed. Who are His sheep? The elect of God determined before the foundation of the world was laid.
The Christian puts Jesus above all things in their life; all things. The Christian has great reverence for the written Scripture and shows this by always reading and studying in order to grow in holiness and understanding of the Lord Jesus and to know Him is to love Him; therefore the love and supremacy of Jesus continually grows and is manifest by the fruits of righteousness.

I don’t have to go that far. ITS IN SCRIPTURE!
Philippians 2:12
**Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own **salvation with fear and trembling.

Galatians 5:6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision;** but faith which ****worketh by **love.

Romans 2:7
**To them who by patient **continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

James 2:24
**Ye see then how that by works a man is **justified, and not by **faith **only.

None of any work that was not prepared by God would be pleasing to God, but since God has granted the Christian the privilege to serve Him, which is only possible by the regeneration of the soul, which is the sole work of God. Only then will the man of God be able to walk in the righteous deeds or work out sanctification, another gift of God or persevere to the end, another gift of God. If I asked what does the Bible say about who does the work of salvation it would be like asking who wrote the Bible; it is the same God is the Author and man is the means and the result is the glorification of God.

Yeah, read it and weep! Your Pastors are deceiving you. Works are a necessary component to salvation. If you don’t work for God, YOU WON’T BE SAVED.

By your sarcasm or self-aggrandizing; I can easily assume and discern you are very immature as a Christian or not one at all; for you take pleasure in what you believe is right in feeling that someone else is wrong in your own sight. Not a mark of a Christian or perhaps an immature one; so I would exhort you to refrain from such ego trips.

I have a question; if works are necessary for salvation and not a result of salvation, then what happened to the thief on the cross? What happens to those that may have conversion at the point of death? Do you see the difference? One claims works are a necessity for one to be saved; whereas another says the Bible teaches works were prepared by God that the Christian, a saved person, would walk in them as a result of this wonderful and glorious regenerating work of God.

You see one glorifies God alone; the other glorifies the man who does the work; one is religion, the other is a relationship between man and God at a very personal level.

Which would you rather have? Which is God going to have?

Continued–>

 

[Cat_Herder]

The Christian has great reverence for the written Scripture and shows this by always reading and studying in order to grow in holiness and understanding of the Lord Jesus and to know Him is to love Him; therefore the love and supremacy of Jesus continually grows and is manifest by the fruits of righteousness.

… But what if Christians start disagreeing about what Scripture means?

None of any work that was not prepared by God would be pleasing to God, but since God has granted the Christian the privilege to serve Him, which is only possible by the regeneration of the soul, which is the sole work of God.

At what moment in the sinner’s life does God do this work?

Only then will the man of God be able to walk in the righteous deeds or work out sanctification, another gift of God or persevere to the end, another gift of God. If I asked what does the Bible say about who does the work of salvation it would be like asking who wrote the Bible; it is the same God is the Author and man is the means and the result is the glorification of God.

Does the Christian have a free will? If so, what happens should the Christian decide not to endure to the end?

By your sarcasm or self-aggrandizing; I can easily assume and discern you are very immature as a Christian or not one at all; for you take pleasure in what you believe is right in feeling that someone else is wrong in your own sight. Not a mark of a Christian or perhaps an immature one; so I would exhort you to refrain from such ego trips.

Reproof is not an ego trip. See 2 Tim 3:16.

I have a question; if works are necessary for salvation and not a result of salvation, then what happened to the thief on the cross? What happens to those that may have conversion at the point of death?

Wrong Testament. The New Covenant was not operative yet.

Do you see the difference? One claims works are a necessity for one to be saved; whereas another says the Bible teaches works were prepared by God that the Christian, a saved person, would walk in them as a result of this wonderful and glorious regenerating work of God.

You need to answer the free will question before you can draw this conclusion.

You see one glorifies God alone; the other glorifies the man who does the work; one is religion, the other is a relationship between man and God at a very personal level.

You presuppose that no Catholic has a personal relationship with Jesus and in so doing you put yourself on His Throne.