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Stylites
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Sides? “It’s you and me against those Bishops, buddy!”
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Rascalking
Guest
Now THAT’S a classy comment. What are you insinuating my friend?
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larkin31
Guest
Sir Knight seems to be gone. Can anyone else verify this “duty” to own firearms in the CCC?
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Sir_Knight
Guest
First off, I am not gone. I have a life to live outside of the web (work, family responsibility, etc.) and can not be here around the clock. Secondly, I never said that the CCC tells us that we have a duty to own a firearm. The CCC tells us that we have a GRAVE DUTY to protect ourselves and others. The exact paragraphs were quoted earlier in this thread by others.
I went on to say that the Vatican, in an OFFICIAL statement (NOT an official teaching) further went to clarify the Church’s position on this matter that we have a right and even a duty to protect ourselves with firearms. I refer you to the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace, “The International Arms Trade: an Ethical Reflection” in Origins 8 (24), 7 July 1994, p. 144) …
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… the right of legitimate defense by means of arms* EXISTS. This right can become a SERIOUS duty for those who are responsible for the lives of others, for the common good of the family or of the civil community. This right ALONE can **justify the possession of arms **…
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Miserys_Fence
Guest
Then I daresay that if you aren’t following around your spouse and children and loved ones 24/7, never sleeping, with your gun drawn and ready–you aren’t a very good Catholic.
You really think the likelihood of being shot in Mass is higher than being shot anywhere else? Your children are more likely to be shot at school. If you really love them, you’ll start shadowing them 24/7 with your gun loaded. It’s your duty as a Catholic.
Miz
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larkin31
Guest
I don’t know why you did not just quote the relevant passge. I will. This is a letter from the Vatican to a conference on trying to stem the illicit trade of arms:
The word “can” is used twice in key spots. There is no general duty or expectation placed on Catholics here to own a firearm (contrary to the tenor of your summary). It is a document acknowledging a duty that people “can” develop, and a right (NOT “absolute,” they say) to own and trade in firearms. I do not disagree with this clearer position at all, and am not surprised that the RCC would value defense of self and family.
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Sir_Knight
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You’re building a straw-man argument and that doesn’t speak favorably for your intentions in this discussion.Then I daresay that if you aren’t following around your spouse and children and loved ones 24/7, never sleeping, with your gun drawn and ready–you aren’t a very good Catholic.
You really think the likelihood of being shot in Mass is higher than being shot anywhere else? Your children are more likely to be shot at school. If you really love them, you’ll start shadowing them 24/7 with your gun loaded. It’s your duty as a Catholic.
Miz
The problem with your conclusion is that the Church also teaches that in addition to protecting our family, we must also provide for them. If I stayed with them 24x7, I wouldn’t be able to earn a living and I would fail in providing for them. That’s why those responsibilities have to be balanced BUT if I am with them and I am not PREPARED to protect them, then I have failed in that responsibility.
Hope that clears things up for you.
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Sir_Knight
Guest
What relevant to this discussion is that despite the fact that there is a need to “stem the illicit trade of arms”, the Vatican still supports the *** legitimate defense by means of arms***.
Read the first thing that I (and you) quoted …
… the right of legitimate defense by means of arms EXISTS …
… It doesn’t say that it CAN exist but that it DOES exist. Now, since you have some issue with the word “can”, let’s look at it’s definition …Can [kan; unstressed kuhn] :
[1] to be able to; have the ability, power, or skill to
[2] to have the power or means to
[3] to have the right or qualifications to
[4] to have permission to
… combine that with what is said in the CCC and it is obvious that the official Church has no issue with defense with firearms and under certain conditions (those who are responsible for the lives of others, for the common good of the family or of the civil community), the use of a firearm for defensive purposes is even be a duty. As a husband and father taking my family to church, I fall into that category.[2] to have the power or means to
[3] to have the right or qualifications to
[4] to have permission to
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Sir_Knight
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I’m not speaking in any “official” capacity as a Knight but as a Catholic who is trying to be loyal to the teachings of his Church and our obedience come to the Vatican before it goes to a local Bishop if the two are in disagreement with each other.
Given the fact that the CCC teaches that we have a GRAVE DUTY to protect ourselves and others from harm, how can a local bishop remove from us the ability to perform that duty without being in conflict with official (the CCC) Church teaching?
If you are an ambulance driver and I tell you that you have a grave duty to get an heart attack patient to the hospital as soon as possible but then I turn around and say that we are concerned about pollution and instead of taking the heart attack patient to the hospital in the ambulance, you are to carry him there on foot, I’ve just removed the “grave duty” of getting him there as quickly as possible.
By removing the best means of personal self defense, the “duty” to self defense can no longer be considered “grave” because a grave duty requires that the best means possible be used to perform it. And, no local bishop has the authority to contradict official Church teaching as found in the CCC.
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Sir_Knight
Guest
Correction: it’s the Vatican against those bishops.
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larkin31
Guest
Do you suppose that the Vatican means what you folks are arguing for: That Catholic mass in the local parish is dangerous to the point that dads need guns there to protect their families?
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Rascalking
Guest
Miz,Then I daresay that if you aren’t following around your spouse and children and loved ones 24/7, never sleeping, with your gun drawn and ready–you aren’t a very good Catholic.
You really think the likelihood of being shot in Mass is higher than being shot anywhere else? Your children are more likely to be shot at school. If you really love them, you’ll start shadowing them 24/7 with your gun loaded. It’s your duty as a Catholic.
Miz
If someone had a firearm at school, it might very well have SAVED lives. When an armed gunman decides to shoot up a school, if no one else is armed, it’s not really a fair fight.
You can’t say to an armed person “you stop it right now!” It usually doesn’t work.
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Stylites
Guest
Publicly declaring that a bishop is not in unity with Rome based upon reading a news story and upon one’s own uneducated interpretations of Vatican teachings is in the least a dangerous proposition. I wasn’t aware that you resided in Louisiana, since you publicly stated your opposition to a ‘local bishop,’ as if the Church practices in Louisiana concern you directly.
Perhaps rank and file Knights are allowed to publicly condemn Church leaders while only elected officials aren’t allowed to publicly condemn Church leaders; I thought Catholic honor was a requirement upon all Knights.
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Byzman
Guest
That is not what it is about…you are missing the point…it is about being able to practice the 2nd Amendment anywhere!..yes!..even in a church! Not because it is dangerous but because anything could happen.
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larkin31
Guest
“Anywhere”??
Well, you’re just whining, then, about the limits of a right. Even the Vatican said that the right was not absolute, and our country certainly has put limits on that right, and for good and healthy and safe reasons.
You just have to assuage your fears in a different, more socially acceptable, and more legal manner than taking guns onto private property where they are not welcome.
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larkin31
Guest
And maybe the other person would have shot 50 persons.
You can’t argue hypotheses contrary to fact with any real effectiveness.
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Rascalking
Guest
Actually, you can. Take a look at the options.
- Guy comes in with gun. Starts shooting people. No one else has gun. Armed man kills innocent people.
- Guy comes in with gun. Starts shooting people. Several people have guns and disarm him.
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larkin31
Guest
nevermind
I don’t feel like giving a lecture on the fallacy of “hypothesis contrary to fact”
but you can look it up
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Sir_Knight
Guest
Since the CCC does not say othewise, I suppose that the right & duty to self defense does not stop at the Church doors. As I said earlier, Peter had a sword with him during the first mass. Jesus, being God, knew this but did not rebuke Peter for his carrying one and if you read the Gospel accounts, Jesus was not shy about saying what was on His mind.
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Sir_Knight
Guest
The right to self defense is ultimate the right to life because that is what self defense is all about. We’re not talking about protecting property but our life or that of another innocent individual. Given the Church’s teaching that the right to life begins at concepts and ends with NATURAL death and another church teaching that we are to oppose evil, how can you even begin to think that the Vatican would place limits on the right to self defense?
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