LA prelate ‘deeply concerned’ about Trump on immigration

[LeafByNiggle]

Of course they apply; they directly address the question you asked whether “citizens have a morally superior claim on those job opportunities.” A job is a good which goes to one person only, and the citizen - as Aquinas stated - has preference.

I didn’t say a job should be given to an immigrant in preference to a citizen. Even citizens are not guaranteed jobs. All I suggested is giving them the opportunity to live here, which does not displace anyone. How they support themselves will be a matter for the marketplace to determine.

The fact that you uncharitably judge those who disagree with your prudential solutions does not make immigration a moral issue. You are in fact not judging competing positions, you are judging the people who hold those positions.

No, I am judging the decision to do nothing to help these people.

We have a general obligation to aid the suffering. The priest and the Levite failed that obligation, the Samaritan fulfilled it. The prudential decision was in determining what kind of aid to provide; it was not in choosing whether or not to help.

But choosing whether to help or not is the kind of decision people are making when they say “deport them.”

There is nothing in the catechism that tells us what specific actions to take. 2241 gives general rules. Within those guidelines one option is as moral as any other…

Except the option to do nothing.

I’ll ask this again: in determining what the best option is, what moral question do we face?

If that truly were the decision being made, there would be no moral question.

 

[Ender]

I didn’t say a job should be given to an immigrant in preference to a citizen. Even citizens are not guaranteed jobs. All I suggested is giving them the opportunity to live here, which does not displace anyone. How they support themselves will be a matter for the marketplace to determine.

It is ironic that we denounce companies for sending jobs overseas yet we raise no objections to importing people to take jobs that cannot be exported. The result is the same in both cases: there are fewer job opportunities for Americans.

No, I am judging the decision to do nothing to help these people.

You are assuming that is the decision they have made. There is no justification for assuming that.

But choosing whether to help or not is the kind of decision people are making when they say “deport them.”

Our obligation is not limited to helping illegals; it extends to doing what is best for all involved, which might in fact include deporting large numbers of illegals. Deportation is itself not immoral, and I am justified in advocating it if I believe it is needed.

Except the option to do nothing.

Even doing nothing is better than doing something harmful. Suppose you had to choose between doing nothing and mass deportations: would you not prefer to do nothing?

If that truly were the decision being made, there would be no moral question.

Exactly so. Moreover, inasmuch as we are obligated to assume the best about others, and to interpret their comments in the best possible light, there is no justification whatever for assuming people have taken contrary positions because they are mean, selfish, racist, or xenophobic. There are (virtually) no moral or immoral proposals; there are only moral or immoral reasons for choosing between them.

Ender

 

[LeafByNiggle]

It is ironic that we denounce companies for sending jobs overseas yet we raise no objections to importing people to take jobs that cannot be exported. The result is the same in both cases: there are fewer job opportunities for Americans.

I have never been one of those who denounced sending jobs overseas - as long as those employers are treating those employees fairly and not just running a sweat shop.

You are assuming that is the decision they have made. There is no justification for assuming that.

It is natural to assume that when those objecting to helping how we can are not offering any practical alternative options that helps them.

Our obligation is not limited to helping illegals; it extends to doing what is best for all involved, which might in fact include deporting large numbers of illegals.

Certainly, if those illegals have engaged in criminal activity it would be just to deport them.

Deportation is itself not immoral, and I am justified in advocating it if I believe it is needed.

In general, that is true. It is when we get down to specific implementations that this might not be true.

Even doing nothing is better than doing something harmful. Suppose you had to choose between doing nothing and mass deportations: would you not prefer to do nothing?

First we would have to establish that great harm is being done by letting them live here.

Exactly so. Moreover, inasmuch as we are obligated to assume the best about others, and to interpret their comments in the best possible light, there is no justification whatever for assuming people have taken contrary positions because they are mean, selfish, racist, or xenophobic.

I did not assume any such motives for their decisions.

There are (virtually) no moral or immoral proposals; there are only moral or immoral reasons for choosing between them.

There are proposals for which it would be very hard to find a moral reason for choosing them.

 

[Theo520]

To find better ways, first we need to look at facts. There are 4 billion people on this earth that live on less than $2 day. These people live in extreme poverty. These number grow by about 30 to 40 million every year.

So the question become how do we improve the living conditions of 4 billion people?

Bring in one million does nothing to help the 4 billion, yet it harms the middle class in this country.

So first thing that needs to be done is those country need cheap energy.

Next we need to look as to why that country is poor?

Poverty is a condition that can be fixed for a large portion of these people. it’s my belief that liberty, freedom, and accountability will go a long way in (name removed by moderator)rove the lives of those 4 billion.

Why is it our responsibility to manage the affairs of everyone else across the globe?

I take that harsh line because we’ve shown no ability to intervene at the Govt level and ‘fix them.’ In same way our US anti poverty efforts have also been largely ineffective.

How do you imagine “poverty is a condition that can be fixed”?
What is your solution, that’s proven to work?

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Why is it our responsibility to manage the affairs of everyone else across the globe?

I take that harsh line because we’ve shown no ability to intervene at the Govt level and ‘fix them.’ In same way our US anti poverty efforts have also been largely ineffective.

How do you imagine “poverty is a condition that can be fixed”?
What is your solution, that’s proven to work?

Watch it, there! philipl is on your side.

 

[ProVobis]

As like all liberals, You use your feeling to justify your position. I don’t have that luxury, I have to use facts. Facts are, the American middle-class hasn’t seen a real raise since 1970. Fact is 95 million Americans make left the job markets, of those 95 million, at least 50 million would love to have a job and cant find one. We have illegals keeping wages low and companies lay off their trained staff and replace them with low paid workers.

Excuse me, I didn’t vote. And I’m an immigrant myself. But I’ve managed to make myself a contributor, both as an innovator and a consumer, to a society which at least gave me a chance. I doubt if Trump would have given my family a chance.

And please don’t ask me if we were legal or not. We might not have been according to today’s mean-spirited populist world. That’s how bad I see things.

 

[Ender]

It is natural to assume that when those objecting to helping how we can are not offering any practical alternative options that helps them.

Helping “them” is not a requirement. Doing what is best for everyone is the goal, and that will inevitably include choosing options that are harmful to some.

Certainly, if those illegals have engaged in criminal activity it would be just to deport them.

It is not inherently unjust to deport them whether they have committed crimes beyond their illegal actions in coming here. Deportation is a valid option.

First we would have to establish that great harm is being done by letting them live here.

I only have to establish things to my satisfaction, not to yours. My choices are based on my perceptions.

Ender

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Helping “them” is not a requirement. Doing what is best for everyone is the goal, and that will inevitably include choosing options that are harmful to some.

Marginally helping those who are already comfortable while hurting those who are in great need is not a moral choice.

I only have to establish things to my satisfaction, not to yours. My choices are based on my perceptions.

Ender

Do you honestly perceive that great harm is being done by letting an immigrant live here who has always paid his way, works hard, and functions as part of the community? Or are you just referring to some theoretical perception that someone might have?

 

[Convert_in_99]

So? Why does finding a “merciful” solution always mean the USA needs to absorb millions and millions of people that broke the law? Why can these people understand by being “merciful” we are harming, and directly so, USA citizens?

I agree with Trump. Its time to end anchor babies. I want to be “merciful” the middle class american worker instead of ignoring them.

Wow. That’s just cold.

 

[Convert_in_99]

It really saddens me to hear this. Deporting legal citizens is already being done and certainly not to their benefit. In one case I heard it was an extreme hardship because all the child learned was English.

 

[Convert_in_99]

I have only made it through a page of this thread and already I want to vomit. I can’t believe how many US citizens and fellow Catholics still have such hatred in their hearts.

Do we forget most of our families were once immigrants themselves?

 

[Convert_in_99]

Excuse me, I didn’t vote. And I’m an immigrant myself. But I’ve managed to make myself a contributor, both as an innovator and a consumer, to a society which at least gave me a chance. I doubt if Trump would have given my family a chance.

And please don’t ask me if we were legal or not. We might not have been according to today’s mean-spirited populist world. That’s how bad I see things.

Oh my goodness! I’m so very sorry you are reading such hatred-filled posts coming from your fellow Catholics. On behalf of all of us I’m truly sorry. :console:

 

[Convert_in_99]

Wow this thread is crazy horrid. I can’t believe some of you can be so cold hearted and hate-filled. Did you not even notice there are members who are immigrants involved in this very discussion? UNbelievable. Talk about slapping Jesus in the face! So reporting this horrid thread!

 

[pnewton]

It’s amazing how CAF posters understand the Gospel so much better than their own bishops…

Such is the American attitude. Every man is a teacher while students, that is disciples, are few and far between.

 

[pnewton]

I like AB Gomez’s political neutrality:

We are deeply concerned about the president-elect because of his drastic campaign promises regarding deportations.
But we also know that the outgoing administration has deported more than 2.5 million people in the past eight years - more than any other administration in history. And the vast majority of those deported are not violent criminals. In fact, up to one-quarter are mothers and fathers that our government is seizing from ordinary households.
That is the sad truth about immigration policy in America today.

and

Undocumented immigrants have become a kind of “scapegoat,” an easy target to blame for broader problems in our economy and society.
Many of our neighbors today rightly feel vulnerable and unprotected - they are worried about jobs, wages, the decline of their communities, the threat of terrorism, the security of our borders. We cannot simply dismiss their concerns or label them as nativists or racists, as some have. What our neighbors are worried about is real and we need to take their concerns seriously.
But undocumented workers are not the problem. The real problem is globalization and deindustrialization and what that is doing to our economy, to our family structures and neighborhoods.
This is not a “white working class” issue only, as the media reports. Whites, Latinos, Asians, blacks and others are all suffering from the breakdown of the family and the vanishing of good-paying jobs that make it possible to support a family.

I would hope that all would take note of the history of immigration. It is a bi-partisan failure. The Democrats are no friend of the immigrant either.

 

[pnewton]

I would also like to point that if Jane, a US-born single mother decided to steal money in order to give her children a better life, no one would be protesting about her split-up family as she is led to jail.

If the amount stolen was in the same penalty range as crossing the border illegal, there would be no jail, or not more that a day or so. A fine would be the more likely punishment. In any case, this is simply not comparable to removing a parent for years for what would be the equivalent of speeding.

 

[pnewton]

I want to be “merciful” the middle class american worker instead of ignoring them.

If you are a wealthy capitalist, that is an admirable goal. However, most people who say this are middle class themselves. “Mercy” is not a term that applies to be self-serving.

 

[gracepoole]

People are not illegal but they do illegal things.

Precisely. The distinction is incredibly significant. I would hope for obvious reasons.

 

[pianistclare]

I guess none of y’all actually know an immigrant.
If you want the US to remain Catholic. you’d better welcome the Mexicans.
The system is indeed broken.
It takes WAY too much money to get in the country.
My husband came in from Ireland 6 years ago. You can’t believe how much of his savings it took. Most people don’t have that kind of cash lying around.
We had a church employee from Columbia who had to leave…a professional Architect, worked for the parish for pennies to live in a cheap efficiency apartment, his wife taught in the Catholic school, again for way less than they paid anyone else…never broke a law, but their permits ran out and they can’t come back. Intelligent, well educated people.
Ridiculous.
Those who think all immigrants are criminals just don’t know the vast majority of good people.
They’re not taking anything away from Americans. They pay cash for everything, and what they can’t afford, they don’t try to buy, unlike Americans who run up debt like crazy.

I’m not going to read any further because I know I’ll get slammed and I can’t fight this.
But the Mexicans that I know are wonderful people who want the same things for their kids that I do. Mexico is a terrible, unsafe place. They really contribute a lot to our local economy and to the Church. Honest. But, people who think they’re a drain will never believe it, so

 

[gracepoole]

Yes, if the lesson is you can’t call someone who violates our immigration law an illegal then it is very silly. So you are saying if we use the term ‘illegal’ we are vile Nazis who will eventually commit genocide? I’ll just say I strongly disagree with that.

Yes, why worry about silly things like words and the repercussions of those we choose to use? Why bother to distinguish ourselves and our use of language from those who describe humans in ways that lead others to see them as worthy of being destroyed? Who cares if someone hears my language and interprets it as saying that “illegals” don’t deserve humane treatment? I want to say what I want to say without consequence or ownership! Anything else is just the product of some ridiculous left-wing agenda bent on silencing me!

Got it.