Lack of security in salvation

[po18guy]

True believers will always believe, they may become confused and misled for a time but they can never fully believe anything else.

That is a platitude. “True believers” is like saying all Angels are Angels. We are commanded to evangelize to all, not just “true believers”. And, who can tell which they are, except God, Who alone knows their hearts?

Those verses are refering to the tribulation and are encouragement for believers that the Lord will save them from their persecution.

Jesus saves from sin, not persecution. We are guaranteed persecution, if we are true Christians.

The branches are Christians who live a bad life, (but, what if they were “saved”???) they are useless for service (but, service is a “work” ), their life is a waste but I don’t think that is refering to Hell.

Are you willing to bet eternal hellfire on your belief? You and I sin - all of the time. Do you confess your sins to one another (James 5:16), as the bible counsels you? If not, what is your claim to an exemption from scripture?

You think that your good works matter to God? Salvation is a gift and if you try to offer God anything you have rejected that gift.

Can you get into the Kingdom if your faith is dead? I don’t think so. Can you get into heaven by empty works of the law? No. Faith, working through love is the recipe. Love is greater than faith, greater than hope - if you listen to Jesus and Saint Paul, that is (John 13:34-35, 1 Corinthians 13:13). You greatly misunderstand Catholicism. I refer you to:

Revelation 20:12-13 (New International Version)

“And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done”.

Does the bible and the Catholic Church teach works salvation? No! The Pharisees did that, and were empty vessels. We are saved by grace through faith, exactly like you. We are justified by faith working through love.

May Christ’s peace be with you.

 

[joann1957]

RIDGE

Most denominational christians believe that if they continue in sin they will go to Hell as the bible tells us, in fact the whole NT is about the consequences for Believers if they do continue in sin.

There is not one scriptural verse in the entire King James Version of the Bible that supports this False Doctrine

.MATTHEW 7:21

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

I CORINTHIANS 3:16

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

I CORINTHIANS 3:17

If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Who did the Bible say is the temple of God? Why it is you. How do people destroy the temple of God, By living in sin, Adultery, fornication, drug abuse, drunkenness, smoking, homosexuality, the list goes on and on.

I JOHN 3:8

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Now listen closely. How many people who have been saved actually live Holy lives? How many actually act like true Bible Christians? The truth is many of these people who are so called OSAS believers, return to their sins. They believe that if a man commits adultery on his wife and dies in that sin he will go to heaven after all OSAS.

Now the Bible says this:

GALATIANS 5:19

 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

GALATIANS 5:20

Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

MATTHEW 7:21

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

JOHN 8:31

Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;

JOHN 8:32

And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Continue in his word means to remain or abide. His word must be in your heart. You must learn about Jesus by follow His teachings. Become a student of the scriptures. This is not only left up to the Pastors. You must know your GOD for yourself.

If you can do that then you will be His disciple. You will know the truth and you will be free!

I CORINTHIANS 3:16

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

I CORINTHIANS 3:17

If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.

Who did the Bible say is the temple of God? Why it is you. How do people destroy the temple of God, By living in sin, Adultery, fornication, drug abuse, drunkenness, smoking, homosexuality, etc…

This is a promise! God will destroy anyone who does not take care of their body’s; unbelievers are not the temple of God! Only believers.

I CORINTHIANS 9:27

But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Paul was not living an ungodly life style. How many people do you know who lay claim to being saved, but are actually living in sin every single day?

Joann

 

[DocProct]

We do not believe that the Church is a visible institution, so if someone leaves their faith community they have not left the Church.

I have tried to believe many other things yet it never seems right. When I realized that Catholicism does not teach the Gospel as I first believed it, I had to leave, even though I still liked the RCC.

There are so many contrary beliefs that can grab someones interest but if you have truly believed and understood the Gospel then you we will see that they all pale in comparison. I don’t doubt that someone can forget that they are already saved and become confused though, it happened to me.

You practice Catholicism so you can reach salvation. We who understand the Gospel already have salvation. World of difference.

I was once given all the do’s and do not’s and it was when I accepted Jesus based soley on faith that my life actually changed and that was only a few short years ago. I was so caught up on trying to do “the right things”, but it was never enough and one day I would feel secure and the next i would feel lost as ever; now I know I am secure and no one can take me from the Fathers hand, not even myself, but who would want to leave such a wonderful and loving Father anyway?

 

[DocProct]

RIDGE

Most denominational christians believe that if they continue in sin they will go to Hell as the bible tells us, in fact the whole NT is about the consequences for Believers if they do continue in sin.

There is not one scriptural verse in the entire King James Version of the Bible that supports this False Doctrine

.MATTHEW 7:21

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

I CORINTHIANS 3:16

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

I CORINTHIANS 3:17

If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Who did the Bible say is the temple of God? Why it is you. How do people destroy the temple of God, By living in sin, Adultery, fornication, drug abuse, drunkenness, smoking, homosexuality, the list goes on and on.

I JOHN 3:8

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Now listen closely. How many people who have been saved actually live Holy lives? How many actually act like true Bible Christians? The truth is many of these people who are so called OSAS believers, return to their sins. They believe that if a man commits adultery on his wife and dies in that sin he will go to heaven after all OSAS.

Now the Bible says this:

GALATIANS 5:19

 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

GALATIANS 5:20

Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

MATTHEW 7:21

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

JOHN 8:31

Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;

JOHN 8:32

And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Continue in his word means to remain or abide. His word must be in your heart. You must learn about Jesus by follow His teachings. Become a student of the scriptures. This is not only left up to the Pastors. You must know your GOD for yourself.

If you can do that then you will be His disciple. You will know the truth and you will be free!

I CORINTHIANS 3:16

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

I CORINTHIANS 3:17

If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.

Who did the Bible say is the temple of God? Why it is you. How do people destroy the temple of God, By living in sin, Adultery, fornication, drug abuse, drunkenness, smoking, homosexuality, etc…

This is a promise! God will destroy anyone who does not take care of their body’s; unbelievers are not the temple of God! Only believers.

I CORINTHIANS 9:27

But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Paul was not living an ungodly life style. How many people do you know who lay claim to being saved, but are actually living in sin every single day?

Joann

Joann,

i use to believe as you seem to, but we will always be sinners until we die. It is truly the direction of ones life that counts; that is why God sanctifies us in the Lord; so we become more like Him and the sin pattern is broken and the sensitivity to sin is enhanced or expanded. Paul said it is no longer I that sin, but the sin that is in me", what was he speaking of, the new nature in Christ battling the flesh.

 

[JustaServant]

Catholics believe salvation is an ongoing process:

*I have been saved: *

Rom 8:24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees?

Eph 2:5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Eph 2:8 For by grace **you have been saved **through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God–

2Tim 1:8 Do not be ashamed then of testifying to our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel in the power of God,
2Tim 1:9 **who saved us **and called us with a holy calling, not in virtue of our works but in virtue of his own purpose and the grace which he gave us in Christ Jesus ages ago,

I am being saved:

1Cor 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

2Cr 2:15 For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those **who are being saved **and among those who are perishing,

Phl 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence,** work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;**

1Pet 1:9 As the outcome of your faith you obtain the salvation of your souls.

I will be saved:

Mat 10:22 and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Mat 24:9 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation, and put you to death; and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake.
Mat 24:10 And then many will fall away, and betray one another, and hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray.
Mat 24:12 And because wickedness is multiplied, most men’s love will grow cold.
Mat 24:13 But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Mar 13:13 and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Mar 16:16 He who believes and is baptized** will be saved**; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Act 15:11 But we believe that **we shall be saved **through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will."

 

[crazzeto]

Joann,

i use to believe as you seem to, but we will always be sinners until we die. It is truly the direction of ones life that counts; that is why God sanctifies us in the Lord; so we become more like Him and the sin pattern is broken and the sensitivity to sin is enhanced or expanded. Paul said it is no longer I that sin, but the sin that is in me", what was he speaking of, the new nature in Christ battling the flesh.

But you persue holyness, and if you consitantly persue holyness you can successfully obtain it. Have you read the stories of the saints? You should.

Edit
Out of curiosity, could you answer my rather extreme and grewsome question? It’s my Sola Fide test.

 

[joann1957]

But you persue holyness, and if you consitantly persue holyness you can successfully obtain it. Have you read the stories of the saints? You should.

Edit
Out of curiosity, could you answer my rather extreme and grewsome question? It’s my Sola Fide test.

i know them personally, the saints, especially St. Pio he is my confidant and my best friend

justification is alway by faith but one must define true faith in christ.

for he who follows gods whole word is truly being faithful , we are not allowed to be lukewarm as many christiansare.

am i striving for holiness I am trying.

Joann

 

[joann1957]

Joann,

i use to believe as you seem to, but we will always be sinners until we die. It is truly the direction of ones life that counts; that is why God sanctifies us in the Lord; so we become more like Him and the sin pattern is broken and the sensitivity to sin is enhanced or expanded. Paul said it is no longer I that sin, but the sin that is in me", what was he speaking of, the new nature in Christ battling the flesh.

wrong, we choose to be sinners its our free will we do this with, its the only thing satan cant get in the way of… is you truly believe in christ then you can abide and follow his requirements

its up to us

if it were impossible to keep the commandements he would have not given them to us to follow

Joann

 

[joann1957]

Joann,

i use to believe as you seem to, but we will always be sinners until we die. It is truly the direction of ones life that counts; that is why God sanctifies us in the Lord; so we become more like Him and the sin pattern is broken and the sensitivity to sin is enhanced or expanded. Paul said it is no longer I that sin, but the sin that is in me", what was he speaking of, the new nature in Christ battling the flesh.

but theres comes a point where we must choose the spirit over the flesh

its free will we can all do it as we are all called to be Holy or imitators of Christ

Joann

 

[2nd_Adam]

but theres comes a point where we must choose the spirit over the flesh

its free will we can all do it as we are all called to be Holy or imitators of Christ

Joann

I think a better way to look at our wills is this: Before we knew God through Christ, our wills were in bondage to our sin nature. When we knew God through Christ, our wills are now inclined to righteousness. Therefore, our wills were once influenced and dominated by our fallen nature, but now when we put on Christ, our wills are influenced and dominated by the Spirit of God and we become slaves to righteousness.

Slaves to Righteousness

What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.

For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Rom 6

 

[joann1957]

I think a better way to look at our wills is this: Before we knew God through Christ, our wills were in bondage to our sin nature. When we knew God through Christ, our wills are now inclined to righteousness. Therefore, our wills were once influenced and dominated by our fallen nature, but now when we put on Christ, our wills are influenced and dominated by the Spirit of God and we become slaves to righteousness.

Slaves to Righteousness

What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.

For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Rom 6

very nice, i was trying to make it brief and simeple
the bottom line is to resist and refrain from sin . it our goal as christians.

Jo ann

 

[2nd_Adam]

very nice, i was trying to make it brief and simple
the bottom line is to resist and refrain from sin . it our goal as christians.

Jo ann

Thanks for your kind words. I wholeheartily agree with what you have shared! God commads us to grow in pesonal holiness because He is Holy.

Called to Be Holy

Therefore, preparing your minds for action, and being sober-minded, set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.” And if you call on him as Father who judges impartially according to each one’s deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile, knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart, since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God; for

“All flesh is like grass
and all its glory like the flower of grass.
The grass withers,
and the flower falls,
but the word of the Lord remains forever.”

And this word is the good news that was preached to you.

Apostle Peter

 

[crazzeto]

I think a better way to look at our wills is this: Before we knew God through Christ, our wills were in bondage to our sin nature. When we knew God through Christ, our wills are now inclined to righteousness. Therefore, our wills were once influenced and dominated by our fallen nature, but now when we put on Christ, our wills are influenced and dominated by the Spirit of God and we become slaves to righteousness.

<snip Rom 6>

I can agree with this, unless you mean “dominated” to the point of “losing free will” as has been explained to me by some. We never lose our free will, God very much takes it into account at our Judgment. Hence as been said many times, it is our job (first and formost) to strive for holyness. In order to keep striving, we have been given the theological virtue of Hope. Hope that we can succeed, as well as saints who have succeeded so completely.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I can agree with this, unless you mean “dominated” to the point of “losing free will” as has been explained to me by some. We never lose our free will, God very much takes it into account at our Judgment. Hence as been said many times, it is our job (first and formost) to strive for holyness. In order to keep striving, we have been given the theological virtue of Hope. Hope that we can succeed, as well as saints who have succeeded so completely.

What do you think about Romans chapters 6, 7, and 8 in regards to your post? We are all called to press on and push forward through the Spirit. I don’t believe our will is netural or without influence since God the Holy Spirit resides in you. If God promises to finish the work that He started, then I don’t believe He leaves us in a netural state to grow into the image of Christ. I believe Goid not only saves us from the penalty of sin; I also believe God actually saves us from the bondage of sin.

 

[Thing]

… If God promises to finish the work that He started, …

…This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
Luke 14 30

 

[2nd_Adam]

…This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
Luke 14 30

Maybe that parable is exposing and refuting easy believism theology?

 

[crazzeto]

What do you think about Romans chapters 6, 7, and 8 in regards to your post? We are all called to press on and push forward through the Spirit. I don’t believe our will is netural or without influence since God the Holy Spirit resides in you. If God promises to finish the work that He started, then I don’t believe He leaves us in a netural state to grow into the image of Christ. I believe Goid not only saves us from the penalty of sin; I also believe God actually saves us from the bondage of sin.

I didn’t say God was either nutral or ineffective, rather I said you never lose your free will. God is with in you, after all you are a new creation having been baptised. God, the Holy Spirit, which resides in you is constantly influencing you. For instance, telling me over my lunch period to pray 5 decades of the Rosary, which I’ve dedicated (among a couple important issues to me) to the conversion of a friend.

But I didn’t have to listen did I? I could have said “no, I don’t want to do that. I’d rather watch a bluray over my lunch period”. That’s the point, that’s what nutralizes the idea of ‘aboslute security’. God allows us to say no. The best analogy is the old addage of a devil on one shoulder, an angel on the other. It’s basically all true, we’re simutaiously being tempted, and reminded of our call to Holyness. God wants us to choose, and God will render on to us in accordance with our works (choices). To be repentant, or to not be repentant. To listen to the Holy Spirit, or to ignore it.

This isn’t to say one should fear every moment they’re alive that they’re going straight to hell. One of my favorite bible quotes of all times, “with God, anything is possible”. Jesus spoke this, to remind us that he came to save us. Yes being saved is difficult, so difficult that with out God it would be impossible. But with God, all things are possible. And if you read on to revelation, you start getting the idea that probably more people are going to be saved in the end than not. Or at least I did

 

[Thing]

Maybe that parable is exposing and refuting easy believism theology?

Maybe its saying the man began to build, and was not able to finish.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I didn’t say God was either nutral or ineffective, rather I said you never lose your free will. God is with in you, after all you are a new creation having been baptised. God, the Holy Spirit, which resides in you is constantly influencing you. For instance, telling me over my lunch period to pray 5 decades of the Rosary, which I’ve dedicated (among a couple important issues to me) to the conversion of a friend.

But I didn’t have to listen did I? I could have said “no, I don’t want to do that. I’d rather watch a bluray over my lunch period”. That’s the point, that’s what nutralizes the idea of ‘aboslute security’. God allows us to say no. The best analogy is the old addage of a devil on one shoulder, an angel on the other. It’s basically all true, we’re simutaiously being tempted, and reminded of our call to Holyness. God wants us to choose, and God will render on to us in accordance with our works (choices). To be repentant, or to not be repentant. To listen to the Holy Spirit, or to ignore it.

This isn’t to say one should fear every moment they’re alive that they’re going straight to hell. One of my favorite bible quotes of all times, “with God, anything is possible”. Jesus spoke this, to remind us that he came to save us. Yes being saved is difficult, so difficult that with out God it would be impossible. But with God, all things are possible. And if you read on to revelation, you start getting the idea that probably more people are going to be saved in the end than not. Or at least I did

I think if the Spirit of God is influencing you, than your will is not truly free. Do you mind explaining what you mean by free will?

 

[crazzeto]

I think if the Spirit of God is influencing you, than your will is not truly free. Do you mind explaining what you mean by free will?

But you are truely free, you truely can choose to reject it. Take Judas, why does Jesus say “but woe to that man by whom the Son of man shall be betrayed. It were better for him, if that man had not been born.”. That is quite a statement, he’s saying his betrayer is in for a world of hurt. Well the reason is Judas Iscariot’s free will, he with is free will choose to betray Jesus. Even after Christ made an extrodanary attempt to sway him, by offering to eat of the same bowl with him “Who saith to them: One of the twelve, who dippeth with me his hand in the dish.”

God does not simply not account for our free will, nor does he over ride it in any way. Are we influenced, yes in so far as the Spirit will remind us of what is true and right. But influenced, is a far cry from controlled. Just as we are influenced by Satan, all the time, but we are always free to reject Satan as we should.