Laity raising right arm in blessing

[frommi]

My biggest point would be…why in the world do we spend so much time on this stuff?

Give me a break, its a gesture…its invoking the spirity…do it…dont do it…but quit acting like such a thing is tearing at the very foundation of a 2000 year old Church.

 

[johnnykins]

frommi:

My biggest point would be…why in the world do we spend so much time on this stuff?

Give me a break, its a gesture…its invoking the spirity…do it…dont do it…but quit acting like such a thing is tearing at the very foundation of a 2000 year old Church.

You seem to deny what many threads here give ample voice to - abuses are divisive. Don’t act like they don’t matter.

 

[frommi]

johnnykins:

You seem to deny what many threads here give ample voice to - abuses are divisive. Don’t act like they don’t matter.

Maybe getting all high and mighty and calling them ‘abuses’ is the problem.

There are ways to solve these issues, and I’ve learned that most people are willing to listen…but who wants to listen to people who are waving the infamous “God’s Booster Club” flag in their face.

It’s always “Father knows best”, until of course you disagree with Father…

These things are only divisive because people let them be.

Simple gestures should not be this bothersome…if someone wants to consecrate potato chips…thats a problem.

 

[johnnykins]

frommi:

…its invoking the spirity…do it…dont do it…but quit acting like such a thing is tearing at the very foundation of a 2000 year old Church.

What spirit? The GEAT SPIRIT? The spirit of humanism? Hundu spiritualism? Gaia? Sophia? (And I mean that in terms of something separate from the manifestation of the Wisdom of God) Wiccan? Presbyterianism? Baptist spirituality?

That’s the whole point!!! So much of this stuff is or at least borders on something wholly foreign to Catholicism. It invokes a spirit that is questionable at best and demonic at worst. Have you seen a Milk and Honey service in a Catholic Church? What spirit is that? Have you seen nuns dancing like the ladies from the Music Man - One Grecian Urn…- at Mass? What spirit is that?

My comment on the Wave was meant to be funny precisely because so many of us have seen these acts of “a spirit.” My comment was deathly sad for the exact same reason.

Sorry, Frommi - it does matter and matters greatly.

 

[johnnykins]

frommi:

Maybe getting all high and mighty and calling them ‘abuses’ is the problem.

There are ways to solve these issues, and I’ve learned that most people are willing to listen…but who wants to listen to people who are waving the infamous “God’s Booster Club” flag in their face.

It’s always “Father knows best”, until of course you disagree with Father…

These things are only divisive because people let them be.

Simple gestures should not be this bothersome…if someone wants to consecrate potato chips…thats a problem.

And is someone wants to use a wafer of wheat with honey, salt, and other prohibited matter - as is done frequently?

It matters - and it’s not for folks who think like you to decide it. It’s folks think like you who are being high and mighty!!

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

johnnykins:

frommi:

It is that argument that has led to liturgical dancing - it’s not prohibited (until recently);

That’s actually been prohibited since 1975. It’s just that the prohibition never stopped anyone.

 

[ncjohn]

johnnykins:

Arguments like the one you are making most certainly have led to divisions - some people think they or the priests can do anything in the Mass.

While I certainly don’t favor **actual ** abuses in the liturgy, it is quite possible that it is just as equally people who are making arguments like yours that are causing division since division only occurs when people disagree.

It is also quite likely that the reason there is such division and there are so many disagreements is that things aren’t nearly as clear cut as some people want to believe they are. There is an awful lot of stuff posted in these forums as “fact” that isn’t even close to Church teaching much less fact, as well as many opinions that are stated as Church teaching that the Church has not taken any position on.

The Church has taken some specific positions allowing for some diversity in the liturgy at the discretion of the conferences of bishops and sometimes the local bishop himself. There is no command from the Church, as much as some wish there to be, that everyone be in postural lockstep at every moment of the Mass. In fact pretty much the only postures specified for the laity in the GIRM are sitting, standing, kneeling, and bowing. If people want to make the argument that you can only do what the GIRM states, then I challenge you to show me where it is proper to fold your hands or place them on the back of the pew in front of you.

I do agree that individual priests should not be calling for things like this within the liturgy, but people deciding to take prayerful positions on their own is not wrong. Further, and this is important here, I don’t believe the scrutinies are part of the liturgy. Like a baptism occuring during a mass, they are a separate rite and the postures taken during the rite are not liturgical or subject to the same rules that occur during mass.

As to your thinking it looks like a Nazi salute, I would be careful making those kinds of comparisons. A lot of Catholic gestures could be compared to looking like other things by people who don’t know better. Since the position being mentioned is a position of prayer and blessing, regardless of whether you like the looks of it, commenting on it in such a way is the kind of “argument that leads to division”. Maybe we can have a good laugh about the actual laying on of hands (from which this one comes) or those silly priests laying prostrate at their ordinations…what’s up with that! Or maybe people genuflecting like they’re stretching their hamstrings…or…

If we want to address unauthorized people giving homilies or clown masses, let’s go for it. There are avenues for addressing those actual abuses Wasting our time criticizing people’s actual prayer positions, which leads to judgments on their piety (and judging of our own as “better”) gets way too far, IMHO, into the Pharisee thanking God for not making him like those “other sinners”.

We really need to give people a little breathing room to express their honest devotion to God in prayerful ways. It can’t be “anything goes” but it can’t be a bunch of mindless robots marching thoughtlessly through the motions either.

Peace to all,

 

[Rebecca_New]

m134e5:

This is a priestly gesture- one we don’t need to do- we cannot give priestly blessings. It also looks like the congregation is sticking their hands out like a bunch of Nazis- imagine if someone with a strong anti-Catholic background went to Mass for the first time, but walked in late when everybody was doing that. My background was not anti-Catholic, but I would have turned around and left had I seen that. We need to be more attentive to what our gestures mean to others.

The Nazis used their left arm. I think we are losing so many people to these other denominations that we started trying to be more charismatic to keep and attract. What is wrong with QUIET HOLINESS? We are all united in the Catholic Faith by the Eucharist. What more do we need?

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

ncjohn:

Like a baptism occuring during a mass, they are a separate rite and the postures taken during the rite are not liturgical or subject to the same rules that occur during mass.

By the very fact that these ceremonies are prescribed rites of the Church it is clear that they are liturgies - just because they aren’t the Mass doesn’t mean they aren’t official public prayer of the Church.

 

[ncjohn]

Andreas Hofer:

By the very fact that these ceremonies are prescribed rites of the Church it is clear that they are liturgies - just because they aren’t the Mass doesn’t mean they aren’t official public prayer of the Church.

But the point is that they are not part of the Mass and are not governed by rubrics for the Mass just as a baptism isn’t and an ordination isn’t.

 

[Marauder]

ncjohn:

But the point is that they are not part of the Mass and are not governed by rubrics for the Mass just as a baptism isn’t and an ordination isn’t.

The different between baptism and ordination being part of Masses and adding things that don’t exist to the Mass is that adding a baptism and/or ordination to the Mass is an approved addition. No where does it state that you can add laity blessings, hand holding, etc.

As has been said before, the rubrics, RS, and the GIRM are a list of what is supposed to be done in the church during Mass. Adding to them needs to be done through an approval process, not through the priest’s, parish’s, etc. own wishes.

1. Since the liturgy of the Sacraments and Sacramentals causes, for the faithful who are properly disposed, almost every event in life to be sanctified by divine grace that flows from the paschal mystery,144 and because the Eucharist is the Sacrament of Sacraments, the Missal provides formularies for Masses and orations that may be used in the various circumstances of Christian life, for the needs of the whole world or for the needs of the Church, whether universal or local.
2. In view of the rather broad range of choice among the readings and orations, it is best if Masses for various circumstances be used in moderation, that is, when the occasion truly requires.

 

[johnnykins]

ncjohn:

While I certainly don’t favor **actual ** abuses in the liturgy, it is quite possible that it is just as equally people who are making arguments like yours that are causing division since division only occurs when people disagree.

And what has caused the disagreement by people like me - is the introduction of abuses unauthorized actions all in the name that they are “spiritual” or non-prohibited. The divission is a result of the innovations.

It is also quite likely that the reason there is such division and there are so many disagreements is that things aren’t nearly as clear cut as some people want to believe they are. There is an awful lot of stuff posted in these forums as “fact” that isn’t even close to Church teaching much less fact, as well as many opinions that are stated as Church teaching that the Church has not taken any position on.

A bit of a red herring here. Things are only not clearcut when one wants to introduce ones own peculiar actions, etc. It’s the intellectual dishonesty of the innovtors that makes things “not
clearcut.”

The Church has taken some specific positions allowing for some diversity in the liturgy at the discretion of the conferences of bishops and sometimes the local bishop himself. There is no command from the Church, as much as some wish there to be, that everyone be in postural lockstep at every moment of the Mass. In fact pretty much the only postures specified for the laity in the GIRM are sitting, standing, kneeling, and bowing. If people want to make the argument that you can only do what the GIRM states, then I challenge you to show me where it is proper to fold your hands or place them on the back of the pew in front of you.

Yes some options are available. The issue is the introduction communal stances and postures that have no history, tradition or applicability to the Roman Rite. Again, the intellectual dishonesty of arguments like “I challenge you to show me where it is proper to fold your hands or place them on the back of the pew in front of you” simply reinforces the need to oppose these innovations.

I do agree that individual priests should not be calling for things like this within the liturgy, but people deciding to take prayerful positions on their own is not wrong.

And it happens all the time with priests!! You think the Orans position of the laity in the last few years at the Our Father arose organically??? You think there was a demand from the pews for dance? No, that won’t fly either.

Further, and this is important here, I don’t believe the scrutinies are part of the liturgy. Like a baptism occuring during a mass, they are a separate rite and the postures taken during the rite are not liturgical or subject to the same rules that occur during mass.

Well then, I guess it’s wide open. I like the Wave and hooah cheers!

As to your thinking it looks like a Nazi salute, I would be careful making those kinds of comparisons. A lot of Catholic gestures could be compared to looking like other things by people who don’t know better. Since the position being mentioned is a position of prayer and blessing, regardless of whether you like the looks of it, commenting on it in such a way is the kind of “argument that leads to division”. Maybe we can have a good laugh about the actual laying on of hands (from which this one comes) or those silly priests laying prostrate at their ordinations…what’s up with that! Or maybe people genuflecting like they’re stretching their hamstrings…or…

The arm blessing has no history among the laity in the Catholic Church - certainly not in the Church itself during any ceremony. The other posyures above have a long history and tradition. they are aplles and oranges. To compare them is to betray a certain arrogance that anything can be done.

more to come

 

[johnnykins]

If we want to address unauthorized people giving homilies or clown masses, let’s go for it. There are avenues for addressing those actual abuses Wasting our time criticizing people’s actual prayer positions, which leads to judgments on their piety (and judging of our own as “better”) gets way too far, IMHO, into the Pharisee thanking God for not making him like those “other sinners”.

I am criticising those who decide to hijack the Church and its rituals for their own ideas of spirituality despite the rubrics and theology - and justify them with all manner of disingenuous arguments. That has been the history of the last 40 years if you’ve been paying attention.

We really need to give people a little breathing room to express their honest devotion to God in prayerful ways. It can’t be “anything goes” but it can’t be a bunch of mindless robots marching thoughtlessly through the motions either.

Peace to all,

This isn’t breathing room - this is and continues to be part and parcel with the rejection of Rome as the authoritative center of the Church structure on earth. Rome, as you so rightly pointed out allows for variety - but it has been pushed and pushed beyond the breaking point. It’s time to say no!

As for “mindless robots” - maybe a well thought out, traditional and well explained reason for the various postures - AS ROME HAS DONE - is better than the ad hoc neo-pagan or protestant or feminist or plain stupid motions which are much worse - IMHO.

Pax te cum

 

[frommi]

johnnykins:

This isn’t breathing room - this is and continues to be part and parcel with the rejection of Rome as the authoritative center of the Church structure on earth. Rome, as you so rightly pointed out allows for variety - but it has been pushed and pushed beyond the breaking point. It’s time to say no!

Ahh…the argument that Rome is the authoritative center of the church and we are just little workers in the office branch vineyards of the Lord…which is an incorrect argument.

Rome exists as a unifying center of the church…not as a place where all authority and power flow.

 

[ncjohn]

Marauder:

The different between baptism and ordination being part of Masses and adding things that don’t exist to the Mass is that adding a baptism and/or ordination to the Mass is an approved addition. No where does it state that you can add laity blessings, hand holding, etc.

As has been said before, the rubrics, RS, and the GIRM are a list of what is supposed to be done in the church during Mass. Adding to them needs to be done through an approval process, not through the priest’s, parish’s, etc. own wishes.

The scrutinies are not part of the liturgy. They are their own separate rite that, like baptism or ordination, happens to occur during the Mass. That is what is being addressed here. What goes on during the scrutinies is not referenced by any of the documents you mention to the best of my knowledge.

Also as I said before, none of the documents you cite have any specifications for hand positions anyway. As such is it ok for me to start a thread complaining because people are folding their hands when their is nothing telling them to do so?

 

[johnnykins]

frommi:

Ahh…the argument that Rome is the authoritative center of the church and we are just little workers in the office branch vineyards of the Lord…which is an incorrect argument.

Rome exists as a unifying center of the church…not as a place where all authority and power flow.

You might want to learn Catholic theology and ecclesiology - Rome is indeed authoritative. That you deny that is, I would guess, the basis for your reason to believe anything goes that is “spirit” and not prohibited…

BTW you seem to have a problem with either misquotes oor understanding what is said. I never said “all authority and power flow” from Rome - that is a gross misstatement. Do you do that deliberately? I repeat Rome is Authoritative. You are not. Fr Clown Mass is not. Bishop Ship-em Around is not. I am not. Sr. Iwanta Beapriest is not. We are part of the Church, just like the Pope - but he is a special case. If you don’t believe that is Catholic doctrine - you need to revisit both VI and VII.

 

[johnnykins]

ncjohn:

Also as I said before, none of the documents you cite have any specifications for hand positions anyway. As such is it ok for me to start a thread complaining because people are folding their hands when their is nothing telling them to do so?

When Fr SoandSo starts telling everyone they must fold their hands in a certain way then you might just have a valid complaint. If he starts telling everone to hop up and down on one leg during the consecration, you might have a complaint. I have heard a priest tell everyone to hold hands and raise them at the Embolism - I think I have a complaint - yes!

 

[AWall]

Hi there, thank you all for your opinions, and Father Corey for offering to email me the rite. (I don’t want to trouble you, I think I’m going to go talk to a priest about everything I’m feeling).

I didn’t mean for my question to lead to an argument. I just wanted to know if the gesture was appropriate for laity, or if was a priestly gesture. I am uncomfortable doing it and uncomfortable not doing it as I’d be the only one not. Thank you to everyone who commented.

Andrea

 

[ncjohn]

johnnykins:

This isn’t breathing room - this is and continues to be part and parcel with the rejection of Rome as the authoritative center of the Church structure on earth. Rome, as you so rightly pointed out allows for variety - but it has been pushed and pushed beyond the breaking point. It’s time to say no!

Ah and here is where the whole thing really rests! You’re fed up and you’re not going to take it any more. And you’re going to decide which things have “gone too far” when the Church, whose job it is to do so, has clearly not done so. And anyone who disagrees with where you draw the line is intellectually dishonest and “rejecting Rome”.

You can make all the charges you want against me of “intellectual dishonesty” and make all the implications you want that I’m impious, lack devotion, want to hijack and tear apart the Church, and all the other “thank you for not making me like those other siners” statements you want.

I will let my devotion to the Church, my piety, my adherence to the gospel, and my love of my fellow man speak for themselves. If you really feel you’re in a position to start proclaiming yourself a “better Catholic” than me–or anyone else for that matter–you might want to go spend some time with the Catechism and chatting with your priest or spiritual director.

As to intellectual dishonesty, if you want to quote chapter and verse to me to tell me something can’t be done and then claim I’m being dishonest for bringing up that what YOU want to do can’t be done according to the same documents because the documents just don’t address the subject, then so be it.

Believe it or not, there are people out here who are committed and devoted, intellectually honest and knowledgeable of scripture and theology who just don’t agree with you. I can respect your opinions–as opinions–without having to agree with them. And I can do it without having to be disrespectful of you or judge your motivations or devotion.

I’m not going to take this any further off-thread. I really don’t care about this particular subject one way or another, but I definitely do care about the Church being torn apart by people on either side thinking that criticizing each other’s prayerful positions–or how we receive communion, or whether or not women wear head covering–is an “ok” thing to be doing. It is “looking at the bowl without looking at the contents” in the worst possible way, and the guy I follow in my religion had an awful lot to say about that stuff.

Peace,

 

[ncjohn]

johnnykins:

When Fr SoandSo starts telling everyone they must fold their hands in a certain way then you might just have a valid complaint. If he starts telling everone to hop up and down on one leg during the consecration, you might have a complaint. I have heard a priest tell everyone to hold hands and raise them at the Embolism - I think I have a complaint - yes!

When a priest is telling them to do so, I don’t disagree as priest should not be creating positions where none are specified–and the fact that “none are specified” is the point. And for that reason I agree on the particular case of this thread as I previously stated.

Telling me that people can’t do it at all, and that there is a document that says so however, is not correct.

We might actually be closer to agreement than I thought, and for that I am thankful.