Latin Mass should become more normal in Roman rite, says Cardinal Castrillon

[mgrobertson79]

Sorry, I don’t understand. Could you please clarify?

The post I replied to was

This is good news for firemen, nurses, stay-at-home moms, taxi drivers and all the rest of 'em.

Yes, yes, people of no education went to Latin masses a hundred years ago. But this world is not the same as it used to be back then. Uneducated people also tend to appreciate it if they can actually understand what is going on.

My comment was to the effect that you are absolutely right about this world not being the same as it was back then. I wish I had been born 100 years ago. Life would be easier without some of the things and ideas we have today. Sure there was more disease and that was bad, but to think we have to improve every last thing is wrong. What was good and Holy remains good and Holy and should not require improvement to the point of not recognizing it anymore. If Catholics today recognize the Mass as such, why do so many deny the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Why are the confession lines nearly non-existent yet the communion lines consistently full. Why are pro death politicians not excommunicated for their blatant stand against the Faith. Why oh why do we have to cause our Blessed Lord any more sorrow than he has already suffered.

This idea that we have to avoid offending anyone is out of control. The truth will offend some, and will prick their hearts if they are open to it and they will convert and make themselves right with God.

 

[mgrobertson79]

Besides, Education gives no one the right to question practices that are centuries old.

 

[Margita]

You are right, the world has changed since then! “Uneducated people” are more educated than they were hundreds of years ago. They can learn basic Latin, and it would be just as rewarding for them as “educated people.”

The amount of Latin they could learn varies widely from one individual to the other. Latin is great, I studied it myself, still do, but not everyone would take kindly if they had to fulfill a language requirement in order to simply worship at Mass. Just my two cents.

Christ, why am I doing this… praying for devotion and coming here to partake in a debate about sg which is none of my business, does not concern me, etc… I promised in the other thread, now locked, that I would never expose myself to such brawling again…

I am sorry if I have offended any of you.

Anyway, I am now leaving. God knows better than any of us what is good for His people. It is a waste of time, guessing His will…

 

[Margita]

Besides, Education gives no one the right to question practices that are centuries old.

Sorry, just this one more: who said this?? I did not question any practices. And I certainly did not claim my education as an entitlement to do so. So again, ?

 

[BobP123]

Yahoo article:

news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070518/ap_on_re_eu/vatican_latin_mass_1

Boston Globe (same text)

news.bostonherald.com/international/europe/view.bg?articleid=1001948&format=&page=2

 

[goofyjim]

So are we blaming the fact of those not believing in the Real Presence on the basis of the Mass not being in Latin? It has been mentioned that many left the Church when Latin was dropped and I agree that this is because they did not have the faith to begin with. Can you imagine the Catholics we have gained in the last 30 years that might leave if we switch back with no alternative. The solution-have both the TLM and Novus Ordo side by side. Peaceful coexistence.

 

[rlg94086]

Don’t talk to yourself, people will think you are crazy.

My understanding from those who know better, is that there is not a “language requirement in order to simply worship” at a Traditional Latin Mass. I believe them. On the other hand, to learn the meaning and pronunciation of the Latin used in the common prayers of the Mass, really doesn’t seem to be that big of a deal to me. I’m learning them now for the Pauline Mass at our parish.

At our 11:30AM Mass, we now chant/pray/sing the Confiteor, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Agnus Dei, Mysterium Fidei and Pater Noster in Latin. They are in my hymnal, and I am reading them from there right now. I already know what they mean, as I have been praying them in English for 17 years. I’m pretty sure my fellow “uneducated” (I only have a High School Diploma) churchgoers can do the same.

[Edit add] And my kids, including my seven-year-old, happen to be learning the Latin prayers as well. They may be smarter than me though. [Edit end]

The amount of Latin they could learn varies widely from one individual to the other. Latin is great, I studied it myself, still do, but not everyone would take kindly if they had to fulfill a language requirement in order to simply worship at Mass. Just my two cents.

Christ, why am I doing this… praying for devotion and coming here to partake in a debate about sg which is none of my business, does not concern me, etc… I promised in the other thread, now locked, that I would never expose myself to such brawling again…

I am sorry if I have offended any of you.

Anyway, I am now leaving. God knows better than any of us what is good for His people. It is a waste of time, guessing His will…

 

[mgrobertson79]

Sorry, just this one more: who said this?? I did not question any practices. And I certainly did not claim my education as an entitlement to do so. So again, ?

I didn’t say you claimed it, that is the general direction we are headed here. When you claim education or lack thereof as a barrier for understanding, it makes people without an education sound stupid, which they are not. I have a high school education. Not the best at that. When I first saw the Traditional Mass, I fell in love. It has nothing to do with education, or knowing Latin or understanding what the Priest is doing, but a hardness of the heart. I stand by what I said earlier, If it was good enough for the Saints, It’s good enough for me.

 

[goofyjim]

Don’t talk to yourself, people will think you are crazy.

My understanding from those who know better, is that there is not a “language requirement on order to simply worship” at a Traditional Latin Mass. I believe them. On the other hand, to learn the meaning and pronunciation of the Latin used in the common prayers of the Mass, really doesn’t seem to be that big of a deal to me. I’m learning them now for the Pauline Mass at our parish.

At our 11:30AM Mass, we now chant/pray/sing the Confiteor, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Agnus Dei, Mysterium Fidei and Pater Noster in Latin. They are in my hymnal, and I am reading them from there right now. I already know what they mean, as I have been praying them in English for 17 years. I’m pretty sure my fellow “uneducated” (I only have a High School Diploma) churchgoers can do the same.

Or I can then choose to just sit through the Mass and receive the Eucharist anyway. At least while it is in English I can participate in the prayers comfortably.

 

[mgrobertson79]

I was asked a question earlier today, here is my response to NCJohn

Yes I do accept the teachings of Vatican II, but not the gross misinterpretations that abound today. The “spirit of Vatican II” is used as a carte blanche to do as people will.

Yes, I accept and love His Holyness Pope Benedict XVI as the Successor of Peter, the Vicar of Christ. The same is true for all of the servants of the servants of God.

Pope Paul VI did not manufacture or create the Mass he promulgated but Mons. Bugnini and I reject him as a heretic. As for the Mass, I do believe as all the Post conciliar Popes have told us that it is valid and it is the Mass.

I am not, nor have ever entertained thoughts of being a sedevacantist. I am not a member or in any way affiliated with the SSPX. I am a student of tradition and of the Saints. And above all, I am a slave of the Most Holy Redeemer.

 

[rlg94086]

Or I can then choose to just sit through the Mass and receive the Eucharist anyway. At least while it is in English I can participate in the prayers comfortably.

Sure. Comfort is the most important thing, Jim. I would wear flip-flops, if I were you too.

 

[goofyjim]

Sure. Comfort is the most important thing, Jim. I would wear flip-flops, if I were you too.

That was an uncalled for personal attack. Participation in the Mass is important to me. I cannot do that when I don’t understand the language and to say everyone is capable of learning Latin is a mistaken notion. As I have said I have no problem with the TLM coming back as long as they also keep the Nvus Ordo alongside it. That way everyone is welcome.

 

[rlg94086]

That was an uncalled for personal attack. Participation in the Mass is important to me. I cannot do that when I don’t understand the language and to say everyone is capable of learning Latin is a mistaken notion. As I have said I have no problem with the TLM coming back as long as they also keep the Nvus Ordo alongside it. That way everyone is welcome.

Can you read along with written print and learn the pronunciation as you go? That’s what I am doing. Like I said, I already know what the Latin means, because the prayers I am singing/chanting are the exact same prayers I’ve been praying for seventeen years.

There are very, very few exceptions regarding people who are capable of learning the basic Latin prayers of the Church. I’m not expecting anyone to learn advanced Latin and recite Virgil to me…

 

[Margita]

Don’t talk to yourself, people will think you are crazy.

I really start to believe I am…

Now, back to the topic. (yet again… ) It is great if you have the willingness to learn basic Latin. And it is great if your kids learn the prayers.
-------disclaimer begins -----------------------------------------------------------
I myself pray in Latin sometimes (and sometimes in English, and sometimes in my mother tongue… lol) I love Gregorian and all the older traditions of the Church. I have been to Latin mass and I, too, loved it. I detest flip-flops and disrespect in churches, and pop music in church does not agree with me either. Hymns like “Now the Green Blade Rises” and the like do, though. Not to mention the carols and hymns in my own language, many of them over 300 years old.
-------- end of disclaimer -----------------------------------------------------------

BUT: what about the people without a high-school diploma? What about the people who just feel isolated in a Latin service? Not everyone is the same. It would be just wrong to make the TLM the only mass, after so many years of vernacular service. Yes, I know, against these years there is a tradition of 2000 years. But people alive today will not find it consoling that 100 years ago they would not have had any option…

 

[goofyjim]

Can you read along with written print and learn the pronunciation as you go? That’s what I am doing. Like I said, I already know what the Latin means, because the prayers I am singing/chanting are the exact same prayers I’ve been praying for seventeen years.

There are very, very few exceptions regarding people who are capable of learning the basic Latin prayers of the Church. I’m not expecting anyone to learn advanced Latin and recite Virgil to me…

No actually I can’t because I never took Latin and am now far beyond traing years for a new language. To me there seems to be this “holier than thou” approach towards those who want to worship in the Novus Ordo. Yet noone has answered my question. Why can’t we keep both?

 

[Margita]

Why can’t we keep both?

We can and we will, rest assured. There has been no mention (apart from an enthusiastic post here) of the TLM returning as the only option. It may return, but NO will not be abolished. That’s what I have figured out from the article.

 

[rlg94086]

We can and we will, rest assured. There has been no mention (apart from an enthusiastic post here) of the TLM returning as the only option. It may return, but NO will not be abolished. That’s what I have figured out from the article.

Yep. No one has mentioned abolishing the Pauline Mass (you may note, I don’t use the term Novus Ordo, because it hasn’t been “Novus” for years ), but more Latin is being used in the Pauline Mass at some parishes. In addition, the Cardinal mentioned the TLM becoming more normal, as the title of this thread says.

Why some people fear an increased use of Latin, I don’t understand. I guess if you walk into my parish, where we are praying the current Pauline Mass with a whole lot of Latin, you would be scandalized…even though the recent letter from Pope Benedict XVI called on us to pray more in Latin.

 

[Margita]

Why some people fear an increased use of Latin, I don’t understand. I guess if you walk into my parish, where we are praying the current Pauline Mass with a whole lot of Latin, you would be scandalized…even though the recent letter from Pope Benedict XVI called on us to pray more in Latin.

Noone is fearing an increased use of Latin, only the possibility (which is scant, I know) that it should become the only option. What I fear is that people focus on worshipping a language, a form of worship more than on worship itself.
And before you shoot me, read the disclaimer…

 

[rlg94086]

No actually I can’t because I never took Latin and am now far beyond traing years for a new language. To me there seems to be this “holier than thou” approach towards those who want to worship in the Novus Ordo. Yet noone has answered my question. Why can’t we keep both?

See my other post.

Is Pope Benedict XVI taking a “holier than thou” attitude, when he calls on us to incorporate more Latin into the current Mass? Do you think he is being “holier than thou” by allowing more Traditional Latin Masses?

 

[KathleenElsie]

Pauline Mass with Latin and Greek prayers are being offered in many places. But alas, not in our parish or the parishes near me.