Latin Mass should become more normal in Roman rite, says Cardinal Castrillon

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rlg94086 said:
See my other post.

Is Pope Benedict XVI taking a “holier than thou” attitude, when he calls on us to incorporate more Latin into the current Mass? Do you think he is being “holier than thou” by allowing more Traditional Latin Masses?
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Keep enough Masses in the vernacular. I find it more reverent to actually participate in the Mass which I cannot do if it is prayed in Latin. Next thing you know they will accuse me of mortal sin if I sit back and do not participate but just show up to fulfill my Sunday obligation. I respectfully disagree with the Pope on this one. Of course he is holier, that’s why he’s there. But I have my own personal holiness to have no shame over and I will still say the prayers in English.
 
Just a gentle warning: beware of disputing with your fellow-Catholic. Internal discrepancies make the Church more vulnerable to attacks from the outside. History has proven this many times.
So those who prefer to worship in Latin let them do so, and those who prefer to worship in the vernacular, let them do so, too. I understand this is pretty much in line with what we know about the Vatican’s view on the matter. Live and let live (and pray).
 
Can any body tell me if the 1962 Mass has the Prayers before the Altar? " I will go to the altar of God , to God the Joy of my youth…"
 
goofyjim said:
That was an uncalled for personal attack. Participation in the Mass is important to me. I cannot do that when I don’t understand the language and to say everyone is capable of learning Latin is a mistaken notion. As I have said I have no problem with the TLM coming back as long as they also keep the Nvus Ordo alongside it. That way everyone is welcome.
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Here’s how you participate in the Traditional Mass, Jim. You meditate on the sacred mysteries unfolding at the altar. You elevate your heart and mind to prayer and you join yourself spiritually to all the priest does as he offers the most Holy Sacrifice to God. It’s called actual participation, and it’s what Pope Pius X and other Popes have called for as the ultimate form of worship at Mass.
 
Margita said:
I really start to believe I am… :o

Now, back to the topic. (yet again… ) It is great if you have the willingness to learn basic Latin. And it is great if your kids learn the prayers.
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I myself pray in Latin sometimes (and sometimes in English, and sometimes in my mother tongue… lol) I love Gregorian and all the older traditions of the Church. I have been to Latin mass and I, too, loved it. I detest flip-flops and disrespect in churches, and pop music in church does not agree with me either. Hymns like “Now the Green Blade Rises” and the like do, though. Not to mention the carols and hymns in my own language, many of them over 300 years old.
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BUT: what about the people without a high-school diploma? What about the people who just feel isolated in a Latin service? Not everyone is the same. It would be just wrong to make the TLM the only mass, after so many years of vernacular service. Yes, I know, against these years there is a tradition of 2000 years. But people alive today will not find it consoling that 100 years ago they would not have had any option…
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Ummm…little children do not have a high school diploma and they can learn the Latin prayers. Same with the old peasant lady in the pew.
 
goofyjim said:
No actually I can’t because I never took Latin and am now far beyond traing years for a new language. To me there seems to be this “holier than thou” approach towards those who want to worship in the Novus Ordo. Yet noone has answered my question. Why can’t we keep both?
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I answered your question twice already. The Novus Ordo Mass is not going away. There is nothing to worry about.

I do believe however, that over time, (and I mean a very long time, like 100 years or more) that the Mass of the Ages will gradually replace the Novus Ordo. There are many reasons I believe this and I have stated hem elsewhere in other threads.
 
That’s GOOD, I think that a lot of people freaked out not because of the language change, but because the entire structure of the mass was dramatically changed.

As far as Latin is concerned, what’s the big fuss? I know quite a few Latin prayers, which I taught myself, from a real old Latin/English Missal. It’s very easy to memorise the prayers in Latin.

I’ve done the same thing with some prayers in Greek.
Have you seen the live broadcasts from Rome? Every time I’ve seen the Pope Celebrate Mass it’s in Latin. And it’s the Novus Ordo!
 
paramedicgirl said:
Ummm…little children do not have a high school diploma and they can learn the Latin prayers. Same with the old peasant lady in the pew.
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My grandchildren (homeschooled) pray in English and Latin. Our prayers can be English one day and Latin the next.😃 Anthony is 10, Adam is 8, MacKenzie is 3 and they each know what the Latin prayers are that they have been taught in both languages.:extrahappy:
 
paramedicgirl said:
Here’s how you participate in the Traditional Mass, Jim. You meditate on the sacred mysteries unfolding at the altar. You elevate your heart and mind to prayer and you join yourself spiritually to all the priest does as he offers the most Holy Sacrifice to God. It’s called actual participation, and it’s what Pope Pius X and other Popes have called for as the ultimate form of worship at Mass.
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But I would also like to know what is being said without having to bury my head in a Missal. And if I am not able to vocalize the prayers, how is that actual participation?
 
goofyjim said:
But I would also like to know what is being said without having to bury my head in a Missal. And if I am not able to vocalize the prayers, how is that actual participation?
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Please, before arguing or going on about this much more, just go to a TLM and sit up towards the front where you can hear, plus the parents are generally considerate of others and keep the little ones towards the back, and see it for yourself. We have heard enough of the what ifs, and the speculation. If you don’t become immersed in the Mass, then by all means return to the Pauline form of the Mass and all will be good.

Besides that, contemplative prayer is so much deeper than vocal anyway.
 
goofyjim said:
But I would also like to know what is being said without having to bury my head in a Missal. And if I am not able to vocalize the prayers, how is that actual participation?
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I didn’t even mention a missal when I told you how you participate in a TLM. But since you mentioned it, my suggestion would be to familiarize yourself with the contents of the missal outside of Mass time, so during Mass you don’t need to “bury your head in a Missal.”

Another option would be to just keep attending the Novus Ordo, and don’t even worry about the TLM.
 
goofyjim said:
But I would also like to know what is being said without having to bury my head in a Missal. And if I am not able to vocalize the prayers, how is that actual participation?
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Get a Latin/ English Missal, MEMORIZE, MEMORIZE, MEMORIZE!!! Go to Liturgy PREPARED. You can follow along in a low whisper, the responses. Read silently, the prayers the priest says, read the English. You CAN participate it just takes practice. Soon you will get used to it. It will become second nature.
When I attend the Greek Orthodox Church, even I don’t know very much Greek, I know exactly which prayers are being said, it has become so much a part of me, I could go anywhere in the world, and Hear the Liturgy in any language, and know what’s being said.
All except the special hymns of the day, for which I need an English translation.
 
goofyjim said:
So are we blaming the fact of those not believing in the Real Presence on the basis of the Mass not being in Latin? It has been mentioned that many left the Church when Latin was dropped and I agree that this is because they did not have the faith to begin with. Can you imagine the Catholics we have gained in the last 30 years that might leave if we switch back with no alternative. The solution-have both the TLM and Novus Ordo side by side. Peaceful coexistence.
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Attendance started dropping around 1964, so you may have a point about the Latin. However, it might have been the other way around too. Latin started dropping as people stayed away from the liturgy too. Tough to say, which is the cause and which is the effect. In any event, it is easy to show that people generally don’t like change of any kind. And perhaps had the TLM been re-released 20 years ago, the change back to the Latin Mass might not have been so tough for some.

Point well taken about the peaceful coexistence. We really have no choice but to be peaceful. 👍
 
goofyjim said:
No actually I can’t because I never took Latin and am now far beyond traing years for a new language. To me there seems to be this “holier than thou” approach towards those who want to worship in the Novus Ordo. Yet noone has answered my question. Why can’t we keep both?
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What both? We will keep the TLM and the (normative) Latin Novus Ordo as well as the Spanish NO and the Polish NO and the Vietnamese NO and the Arabic NO and yes, last but not least, the ICEL NO. 🙂
 
goofyjim said:
Next thing you know they will accuse me of mortal sin if I sit back and do not participate but just show up to fulfill my Sunday obligation.
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Not if you put some money in the collection plate. :extrahappy:
I respectfully disagree with the Pope on this one.
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What happened to Archbishop Lefebrve when he thought the same? :ehh:
 
Margita said:
BUT: what about the people without a high-school diploma? What about the people who just feel isolated in a Latin service? Not everyone is the same. It would be just wrong to make the TLM the only mass, after so many years of vernacular service. Yes, I know, against these years there is a tradition of 2000 years. But people alive today will not find it consoling that 100 years ago they would not have had any option…
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Look, the Church is being generous in offering a whole wealth of Catholic tradition to all. It’s not only the Mass but art and music and majesty and beauty and prayers it inspires. Don’t want the gems, ok, but it’s being offered to you anyway. At least thank the Pope for that. 🙂
 
BobP123 said:
Look, the Church is being generous in offering a whole wealth of Catholic tradition to all. It’s not only the Mass but art and music and majesty and beauty and prayers it inspires. Don’t want the gems, ok, but it’s being offered to you anyway. At least thank the Pope for that. 🙂
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Please read the disclaimer in my post above.
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margita:
-------disclaimer begins -----------------------------------------------------------
I myself pray in Latin sometimes (and sometimes in English, and sometimes in my mother tongue… lol) I love Gregorian and all the older traditions of the Church. I have been to Latin mass and I, too, loved it. I detest flip-flops and disrespect in churches, and pop music in church does not agree with me either. Hymns like “Now the Green Blade Rises” and the like do, though. Not to mention the carols and hymns in my own language, many of them over 300 years old.
-------- end of disclaimer -----------------------------------------------------------
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Who told you I don’t want the gems?
 
goofyjim said:
But I would also like to know what is being said without having to bury my head in a Missal. And if I am not able to vocalize the prayers, how is that actual participation?
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And if you take along a hispanic or Polish friend with you, how are you going to equally participate?
 
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