Latin Mass should become more normal in Roman rite, says Cardinal Castrillon

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This is so much hoopla about nothing. Those who feel threatened by the return of the TLM can always stay in their Novus Ordo Churches. They are under no obligation to go to a traditional Mass. I really don’t see what the issue is.
 
paramedicgirl said:
This is so much hoopla about nothing. Those who feel threatened by the return of the TLM can always stay in their Novus Ordo Churches. They are under no obligation to go to a traditional Mass. I really don’t see what the issue is.
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Either poor catechism or excessive vulnerability to anti-TLM propaganda.
 
paramedicgirl said:
This is so much hoopla about nothing. Those who feel threatened by the return of the TLM can always stay in their Novus Ordo Churches. They are under no obligation to go to a traditional Mass. I really don’t see what the issue is.
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Paramedicgirl, I believe the whole debate started when some people (ahem … cough… :o )misunderstood this:
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paramedicgirl:
You will have both. Eventually, though, the TLM will come full circle, and will be the Mass of the Church once again.
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Word followed word and - I guess we all know how online debates evolve.
Personally, I will be glad to go to a TLM now and then for a change.
 
Margita said:
Paramedicgirl, I believe the whole debate started when some people (ahem … cough… :o )misunderstood this:

Word followed word and - I guess we all know how online debates evolve.
Personally, I will be glad to go to a TLM now and then for a change.
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That was a very long eventually, as I explained in another post. It is what I believe will happen in the next few generations, but not ours. And it is my personal prediction and belongs to me.
 
I have acknowledged that your personal prediction was misunderstood. By me, among others.
 
goofyjim said:
Keep the Novus Ordo while I’m alive. Everyone is still assuming that the reverence is lacking because the Mass is not in Latin. This is not the case. Reverence is lackign because we fail to educate the people on what is taking place at the Mass. I prefer it in English.
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EXACTLY!!!
 
obadiah said:
That’s GOOD, I think that a lot of people freaked out not because of the language change, but because the entire structure of the mass was dramatically changed.

As far as Latin is concerned, what’s the big fuss? I know quite a few Latin prayers, which I taught myself, from a real old Latin/English Missal. It’s very easy to memorise the prayers in Latin.

I’ve done the same thing with some prayers in Greek.
Have you seen the live broadcasts from Rome? Every time I’ve seen the Pope Celebrate Mass it’s in Latin. And it’s the Novus Ordo!
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I guess the bottom line questions is, though, why should they have to learn Latin at all? Are you saying that God hears the Our Father better if it said as the Pater Noster? When there is so much obsession on language, frankly it borders on superstition and magic. If anything, the traditional mass form can and perhaps should replace the current one, butI dont think Latin has anything to do with it. Make changes for their theology, not for their language.
 
I guess the bottom line questions is, though, why should they have to learn Latin at all? Are you saying that God hears the Our Father better if it said as the Pater Noster? When there is so much obsession on language, frankly it borders on superstition and magic. If anything, the traditional mass form can and perhaps should replace the current one, butI dont think Latin has anything to do with it. Make changes for their theology, not for their language.
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I think the major reason for loving Latin comes from an idea that is really examined in the book Hunger for Memory by Richard Rodriguez (I think that’s the author). He talks in it about how when he was young there was a special family language that united his family together (Spanish in this case). He felt safe when he heard it, it was comforting and meant something special to him because this was the language of his home, it was the language that was the bond between his siblings and parents. He talks for a long time about how this idea of his home being a seperate world, where there was a different language spoken, almost a bubble where anything bad from the rest of the world couldn’t invade. When his teachers asked his parents to start speaking English in the home to improve his English, he felt as if the bubble was pierced, the outside had invaded.

Aside from the fact that Latin is one of Holy Mother Church’s Sacred Languages, it is the language of our home, our family language. It’s more than just “part of our heritage” or something that superficially bonds us. It unites us in a very solid and real way, a way that seperates us even further (in a positive way) from the outside world. It is perfectly fine to say “Hail Mary” but when I hear someone else say “Ave Maria” it hits something deeper.
 
No one really thinks that Latin is heard better by God. It is not magic, but much like the special gold Chalice which we use for the Blood of Christ we set aside a language to worship God with.
Coach says it right that the language isn’t what makes it special, but the intent, respect and unity is what makes it special.

Maybe even referring to the Mass as the “Latin” Mass is the problem, as not all of it is in Latin.(from what I have heard) Many times people who hear about a Mass being the “Latin Mass” think of something they wont understand and would be lost in attending.
This makes them uneasy, nervous and hesitant to even want to possibly have to attend. They also feel that then people will be judgemental about their participation.

This is understandable and common. I feel it too and am a little worried about going to my first Latin Mass when it is allowed.

What people need to do is share the beauty of what the Mass means.

It is not a show, “something to go get something out of”, “get fed” or just a praise service. The Sacrifice of Jesus is the only thing we can offer God, that is worthy of God.

The Holy Sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross, which extends through time and this is united in all the Masses throughout the world.
So much so that unity needs to be preserved in our practice as this reinforces our belief.

This is what the traditional Catholic Mass does it unites everyone as one family worshipping God. It is a bit more work from what I hear as I have never been to one, yet it is unitive as it is not a “Spanish Mass” “English Mass” “Korean Mass” etc… but the Catholic Mass in the language of the Church.
It is inclusive as it unites us to the family of the Latin rite in worship.

I can’t wait to go to my first Latin Mass as I have never been to one as my Bishop does not allow one close to me. So I wait in obedience for my Shepherd to be generous.

In Christ
Scylla
 
When I was in school and studied Latin it was called a “dead” language. Its words and meanings do not change with the times as a “living” language does. Just look at how perfectly useful words can no longer be used in everyday conversations without someone pointing out that some words now have a “slang” meaning.

So Latin being a “dead” non-evolving language is a good thing. It stays consistent.
 
Margita said:
Uneducated people also tend to appreciate it if they can actually understand what is going on.
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I think that’s selling people a bit short. Even a small amount of training in latin can help immensly in understanding the mass. How much time do people dedicate to a hobby? Or how about the amount of time spent posting on this forum? If even a small portion of that time was dedicated to learning the universal language of our Rite, (even by the “uneducated”) the results would be amazing. Even if a person had or wanted zero knowledge of latin they could just as easily open a missal and know exactly what is being said.
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goofyjim:
Participation in the Mass is important to me. I cannot do that when I don’t understand the language and to say everyone is capable of learning Latin is a mistaken notion. As I have said I have no problem with the TLM coming back as long as they also keep the Nvus Ordo alongside it. That way everyone is welcome.
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There have been missals in print for many, many years. Benedict XVI has recently said that participation must come first from within. Reading a missal, or rather, praying the missal, requires only as much internal participation as reading a holy card. If a person can’t even rouse his soul enough to do even that much, then that leaves much to be desired in regards to anything else.

Just because something is in latin doesn’t make it more reverent, but we must remember that we are of the Latin Rite. The language plays an integral role in our identity. It’s how our universalness as well as our uniqueness is expressed in the Body of Christ. This is not antithetical to making others feel welcome, to the contrary, this universalness expressed in the sharing of the language of our Rite shows our one-ness.

The argument that the use of latin is somehow inferior or not as useful is rather poor given the fact that knowing what is said is as easy as opening a missal. For those that for some reason are unable to afford a missal, most Churches offer booklets courtesy of Ecclesia Dei to follow the mass with. Failing that, the ordinary of the mass from 1962 can be easily found and printed from the internet. There is really no excuse for not knowing what is said in the mass.

I personally think that if people took their religious identity as seriously as they did say, sports, movies, or politics, the use of latin would be a non-factor. But that’s just my opinion.

Personal preference is one thing and can be respected. But taking issue because of not knowing what is said is a cop-out.
 
Unitas said:
I think that’s selling people a bit short. Even a small amount of training in latin can help immensly in understanding the mass. How much time do people dedicate to a hobby? Or how about the amount of time spent posting on this forum? If even a small portion of that time was dedicated to learning the universal language of our Rite, (even by the “uneducated”) the results would be amazing. Even if a person had or wanted zero knowledge of latin they could just as easily open a missal and know exactly what is being said.

There have been missals in print for many, many years. Benedict XVI has recently said that participation must come first from within. Reading a missal, or rather, praying the missal, requires only as much internal participation as reading a holy card. If a person can’t even rouse his soul enough to do even that much, then that leaves much to be desired in regards to anything else.

Just because something is in latin doesn’t make it more reverent, but we must remember that we are of the Latin Rite. The language plays an integral role in our identity. It’s how our universalness as well as our uniqueness is expressed in the Body of Christ. This is not antithetical to making others feel welcome, to the contrary, this universalness expressed in the sharing of the language of our Rite shows our one-ness.

The argument that the use of latin is somehow inferior or not as useful is rather poor given the fact that knowing what is said is as easy as opening a missal. For those that for some reason are unable to afford a missal, most Churches offer booklets courtesy of Ecclesia Dei to follow the mass with. Failing that, the ordinary of the mass from 1962 can be easily found and printed from the internet. There is really no excuse for not knowing what is said in the mass.

I personally think that if people took their religious identity as seriously as they did say, sports, movies, or politics, the use of latin would be a non-factor. But that’s just my opinion.

Personal preference is one thing and can be respected. But taking issue because of not knowing what is said is a cop-out.
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I think this post really “hits the nail on the head”. A lot of people have a lot of soul searching to do to figure out why they go to Mass. Is it because it makes them feel good? Is it because they were told to do so as a child? Is it because their routine would be off if they didn’t? Or is it because they love and want to worship almighty God? Language isn’t really the issue here, but putting our own comforts before our Blessed Lord. If we have to be comfortable, thats what the easy chair at the house is for. When at Mass, we should be kneeling before our Blessed Lord and praying the Mass along with the Priest. We should also get it out of our minds that we are worthy to handle the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Blessed Lord in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar. We are all creatures and as such, he has our lives in his hand. If he decides to end it, then thats what happens. Lets just live so that we are ready for that moment instead of worrying about personal preferences and comforts.
 
thecoach said:
I guess the bottom line questions is, though, why should they have to learn Latin at all?
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Because it is required under Vatican II.

Sacrosanctum Concilium
Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy - Second Vatican Council
  1. In Masses which are celebrated with the people, a suitable place may be allotted to their mother tongue. This is to apply in the first place to the readings and “the common prayer,” but also, as local conditions may warrant, to those parts which pertain to the people, according to tho norm laid down in Art. 36 of this Constitution.
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Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together, in Latin, those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.
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(emphasis mine)

If you have a problem with the faithful learning Latin, then you have a problem with Vatican II.

And the reason is simple, it makes us a universal Church. All the faithful can worship together in the same language.
 
Another thing that is forgotten her is that English is based on Latin. Many of our root words and even common words are derived from the Latin and Greek.
 
Just kidding with the above post.
Of course Latin is great and Latin mass is beautiful, unifying, holy.
 
goofyjim said:
But I would also like to know what is being said without having to bury my head in a Missal. And if I am not able to vocalize the prayers, how is that actual participation?
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Jim,

Perhaps you should read Pope Benedict’s book “The Spirit of the Liturgy”

It describes what is meant by ‘fuller and deeper’ particpation in the Litugurgy.

And it is exactly was was described earlier.

During the Liturgy of the Word, our participation is when we listen and reflect on the lessons taught in Scripture.

During the Liturgy of the Eucharist, we participate most fully when we offer ourselves along with the Sacrifice being offered by the priest.

The Pope goes on to say that Full participation in the Liturgy is not contrary to silence, but rather silence is required is we are to fully participate.

John Paul II echoed that was well.

Please pick up that book, it is an excellent description of what the Mass is really about and clears up a LOT of the misconceptions that people have accumulated over the years 👍
 
Unitas said:
I think that’s selling people a bit short. Even a small amount of training in latin can help immensly in understanding the mass. How much time do people dedicate to a hobby? Or how about the amount of time spent posting on this forum? If even a small portion of that time was dedicated to learning the universal language of our Rite, (even by the “uneducated”) the results would be amazing. Even if a person had or wanted zero knowledge of latin they could just as easily open a missal and know exactly what is being said.

There have been missals in print for many, many years. Benedict XVI has recently said that participation must come first from within. Reading a missal, or rather, praying the missal, requires only as much internal participation as reading a holy card. If a person can’t even rouse his soul enough to do even that much, then that leaves much to be desired in regards to anything else.

Just because something is in latin doesn’t make it more reverent, but we must remember that we are of the Latin Rite. The language plays an integral role in our identity. It’s how our universalness as well as our uniqueness is expressed in the Body of Christ. This is not antithetical to making others feel welcome, to the contrary, this universalness expressed in the sharing of the language of our Rite shows our one-ness.

The argument that the use of latin is somehow inferior or not as useful is rather poor given the fact that knowing what is said is as easy as opening a missal. For those that for some reason are unable to afford a missal, most Churches offer booklets courtesy of Ecclesia Dei to follow the mass with. Failing that, the ordinary of the mass from 1962 can be easily found and printed from the internet. There is really no excuse for not knowing what is said in the mass.

I personally think that if people took their religious identity as seriously as they did say, sports, movies, or politics, the use of latin would be a non-factor. But that’s just my opinion.

Personal preference is one thing and can be respected. But taking issue because of not knowing what is said is a cop-out.
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We also must remember that we are Catholic or universal and must allow for a host of different cultural backgrounds.
 
goofyjim said:
We also must remember that we are Catholic or universal and must allow for a host of different cultural backgrounds.
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Thus the universality of the Tridentine rite or Mass of Pope St. Pius V. This brings us all together as one culture, one people of God. When it comes to the Church, individualism is not a good thing. We are supposed to focus on God, not ourselves or our different cultures.
 
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