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JimR-OCDS
Guest
And if attachment to the Latin Mass is for any reason other than being closer to Jesus Christ, it’s a disordered attachment.
Jim
Latin Mass Society asks bishops to embrace traditionalists as ‘spiritual children’
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Jim
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LongingSoul
Guest
"But he added that there was a worry, expressed by both Benedict XVI and Pope Francis, of the “ideologisation” of the older Mass, making it a “source of division”.
Noting that marginalised groups tend to become more radicalised, he said: “I believe that we have resisted those tendencies very successfully for the 50 years of the Latin Mass Society’s existence. Those who have any worries in this regard, however, will be able to see the remedy. Problems created by marginalisation will be cured by ending the marginalisation.”"
I think the bolded concept is illogical. Take for example how multiculturalism was supposed to have addressed the type of conditions that allowed fermentation of radicalism. Unless people adopt a loyalty that overrides their own agenda ie “think with the country” in the way Ignatius espoused “thinking with the Church”… embracing marginalised groups and allowing their agenda’s to mature unchecked isn’t a solution. There has to be a common goal… a sense of the common good of a group for radicalisation to be avoided.
Noting that marginalised groups tend to become more radicalised, he said: “I believe that we have resisted those tendencies very successfully for the 50 years of the Latin Mass Society’s existence. Those who have any worries in this regard, however, will be able to see the remedy. Problems created by marginalisation will be cured by ending the marginalisation.”"
I think the bolded concept is illogical. Take for example how multiculturalism was supposed to have addressed the type of conditions that allowed fermentation of radicalism. Unless people adopt a loyalty that overrides their own agenda ie “think with the country” in the way Ignatius espoused “thinking with the Church”… embracing marginalised groups and allowing their agenda’s to mature unchecked isn’t a solution. There has to be a common goal… a sense of the common good of a group for radicalisation to be avoided.
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pianistclare
Guest
Everyone is attached to what they grew up with. That’s nothing new.
Believing that one way is holier than another, (and let’s not kid ourselves…this is at the root of it) or that God only speaks one language or prefers one over all the others …?
I’m pretty attached to some hymns. But I’m not going to say that unless they use only the ones I like at Mass, then it’s not valid. That’s the point.
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Seamus_L
Guest
I didn’t grow up with the Latin Mass. I only really discovered it about 18 years ago. I have plenty of friends who attend the OF, I know priests who say the OF, who I think highly of, and I don’t lecture any of these people. As for me, I have no desire to attend the OF, I either go to the EF or an Eastern Rite liturgy. Works for me.
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pianistclare
Guest
And I grew up with the Latin Mass. It doesn’t work for me. :tiphat:
Each to his own. That’s the point. God bless.
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boar2roar
Guest
I feel like the SSPX feels that they would be hindered and boxed in by superiors who don’t have their best interests in mind if they fully joined back to the church. They’ve done a rather nifty job of having complete autonomy to advance their goals while at the same time officially stating that they are catholic and with the church. Its probably the best way to go about trying to reform something in their situation.
I don’t know. SSPX are very catholic and if young people are becoming invigorated by that good for them. They are becoming a positive force in France and Switzerland were they have have developed a following. I"m young and although I don’t go to an SSPX service I do relate to some of the views that they have.
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YoungTradCath
Guest
lul division? Who are TLM attenders making not be Catholic anymore? Whose experience of the Church are they ruining? SSPXers… I’ve never met one in my life. I don’t even know where the nearest SSPX church is to me. However I do attend the EF, especially when I travel. Most often it’s at a large urban parish in a downtown area and people are as nice as can be. The Mass generally brings 150-250 depending on the Sunday. And there are plenty of OFs around, even in the same parish.
Even if there are some weirdo Sede-tending TLM attendees, so what? That’s not good, no, but there’s nothing I can do about it, so for practical reasons, I don’t especially care. I will pray for them but…meh, why should I let that affect me? Why should anyone?
Again, who are TLM attendees driving away? I just don’t see it. I could say that priests who habitually abuse the OF—let’s not forget that this still happens—drive me away but honestly they don’t. It would bother me if I had to attend a Mass like that but I don’t. I’m not saying I’m okay with abuse in the OF (of course not) but at the end of the day, meh. What can I do? Nothing.
TLM communities don’t cause division. Neither do the parishes which are bastions of proud liturgical abuse, either, as long as there are other, more normal, parishes nearby. If I can ignore liturgical abuse by not going to such a parish—don’t get me wrong the people are probably nice… unless you talk about liturgy—then others can ignore so-called “mean TLM pplz” by not going to such a Mass.
I think what may be the case more than anything is, because TLM communities are so often under a microscope and so many people are relishing the thought of the TLM communities failing, people tend to magnify the faults of people who attend the TLM.
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LongingSoul
Guest
There are some people that love the Latin Mass for its ascetics and personal appeal and can appreciate it as a sort of ‘genre’ of the Mass. They don’t regard it as superior though and are able to attend the OF and appreciate it for its own beauty.
I often go to Mass at an inner city poorer parish Church that has been overlooked for renovation since the 50’s. The ‘old’ altar remains intact at the end of the Church and a platform was built about half way down to accommodate the ‘new’ altar for the OF in the late 60’s. It still has the original solid wooden pews and carved Stations of the Cross etc. My daughter and I really like that atmosphere but my son and husband say they don’t feel like its a Catholic Church because it is so different from what we are used to.
However one of the irritating things is that because of its history, it is a favourite alternative for Latin Mass people who for some reason haven’t been able to get to their Latin Mass that Sunday. So many times we have had this scenario… Everybody is filing up to Holy Communion when suddenly someone reaches Father and drops to their knees and sticks out their tongue. The person directly behind them, in shock takes a step back as a pair of legs is thrust back towards their feet and it sets off a quick reaction of backward motion in the queue like a teetering Mexican wave of communicants until a quick thinker 10 or 15 people back throws a shoulder charge forward to break the momentum and everyone can gain their balance again.
Well perhaps that’s a bit exaggerated but nevertheless, it does mess with the flow of Communion and is irritating in the way of passive aggression that seems so unnecessary.
I often go to Mass at an inner city poorer parish Church that has been overlooked for renovation since the 50’s. The ‘old’ altar remains intact at the end of the Church and a platform was built about half way down to accommodate the ‘new’ altar for the OF in the late 60’s. It still has the original solid wooden pews and carved Stations of the Cross etc. My daughter and I really like that atmosphere but my son and husband say they don’t feel like its a Catholic Church because it is so different from what we are used to.
However one of the irritating things is that because of its history, it is a favourite alternative for Latin Mass people who for some reason haven’t been able to get to their Latin Mass that Sunday. So many times we have had this scenario… Everybody is filing up to Holy Communion when suddenly someone reaches Father and drops to their knees and sticks out their tongue. The person directly behind them, in shock takes a step back as a pair of legs is thrust back towards their feet and it sets off a quick reaction of backward motion in the queue like a teetering Mexican wave of communicants until a quick thinker 10 or 15 people back throws a shoulder charge forward to break the momentum and everyone can gain their balance again.
Well perhaps that’s a bit exaggerated but nevertheless, it does mess with the flow of Communion and is irritating in the way of passive aggression that seems so unnecessary.
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YoungTradCath
Guest
yeah and that cuts more than one way
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YoungTradCath
Guest
And…? I’m not trying to be rude—I truly don’t discount your personal experiences—but… what’s that have to do with anything? I could say, “If attachment to preconceived and radically incorrect views of Vatican II is for any reason other than being closer to Jesus Christ, it’s a disordered attachment." Or, "If attachment to donut holes and potato chips and porn and beautiful women who are not your wife is for any reason other than being closer to Jesus Christ, it’s a disordered attachment.” That’s true, and I could post it in a thread under L&S, but people would try to bait me and probably 14 others would report me for being “uncharitable.” (I hate that word. I’m working on it.)
Tbh I see a whole lot more pathological attachment to fatty food, porn, cheating, and terrible reductionistic views of Vatican II like “The Council set us free from the terrible past!” than attachment to external aesthetic elements of the EF.
***not you just in general
just some thoughts
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
When you have people driving 50 miles away from their own parish to attend Sunday Mass because it’s the TLM, that is a division within the Church.
They’re not driving people who attend the NO away, but rather, separating themselves from the majority of the Church who attend the NO.
That is part of the division I’m referring to.
The other part is attacking the NO as if it were heresy.
Many of us grew up before Vatican II under the TLM and can tell you there were abuses back then. The NO isn’t the cause of abuse, it’s the celebrant.
The reason why TLM’s are more reverent isn’t because of the format, but rather, the people in attendance. They go out of their way to attend a TLM and take their attendance at Mass more seriously, than those who attend their own parishes Masses.
If the TLM were to become the ordinary format throughout the Church, you’d see abuses, but more likely, less Catholics attending Mass than you see today.
If it was merely a matter of what format people prefer, there would be no problem in that. But that’s not what’s been going on. Instead, it’s a division between those who attend the TLM’s and their attitude that somehow they’re better Catholics for doing so.
Jim
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YoungTradCath
Guest
Honestly, what does all this have to do with the EF? Either those people need to learn how to follow conventions of Communion reception at the OF (agree!) or we need to devise a simple and efficient system that allows people to receive Communion at OF Masses in any of the legitimate ways (agree with this one more). No need to connect this to “those EF ppl.” No you didn’t say that but that’s the implication I feel like.
Seriously, if someone comes to a EF and doesn’t kneel at the right times during Mass… or whatever… I personally really don’t care all that much. I don’t act like, “Gosh that dude needs to learn.” That’s sort of how reading your post sounds, but opposite.
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a_priori
Guest
I would like to find a Latin Mass just to experience it. As a convert, it would be nice to see what all the fuss is about.
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Cat
Guest
I was definitely let down. But that’s just me. Maybe you’ll feel differently.
I think that if possible, every Catholic should visit a Latin Mass, just to be aware of the history.
Y
YoungTradCath
Guest
I agree with a good 80% of what you say.
I disagree with the driving part. If there is a case where there is one diocesan parish 50 miles away from the nearest and the only Mass they celebrate is EF ok, fine, I get it. But seriously that’s probably the experience of… less than 0.1% of American Catholics. ??
As much as some EF attendees may think they’re better or whatever, plenty of OF attendees view EF attendees as throwback nostalgic freaks.
You don’t have to tell me about abuses back in the day/frequency/itwouldbecommoneveniftheEFsupplantedtheOF. Yes, I know. I’ve been here a while and I’ve thought about these things for a while.
Seriously, I don’t see what OF attendees can complain about the EF attendees for. If you don’t like Mr. X Who Attends the Latin Mass, then don’t associate with him. Fundamentally, I reject the notion that “TLM people are meanies” or whatever variation anybody can think of. The majority of people at the EF parish I attend are either families, young urbane professional types, retirees, or college students, in that order of commonality.
Again I don’t consider the SSPX because the SSPX is, at least now, a separate phenomenon/movement in the Church. We can’t legitimately compare SSPX church to St. DJIOFJID Parish (diocesan or run by FSSP/whatever).
If somebody believes the OF is heresy, then, let’s educate them! Don’t say, “UGH I wish Latin Mass weren’t allowed!!! These people!” That’s not very New Evangelization-y.
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Seamus_L
Guest
Ever since I discovered the internet, I’ve been hearing negative stories from people who attended Latin Masses and heard people espousing conspiracy theories, anti-Semitism, Sedevacantism, etc. Definitely hasn’t been my experience, and I know people at 4 different parishes that have the EF. On the other hand, I’ve lost track of how many times I’ve heard parishoners at NO parishes make statements openly denying Catholic doctrine.
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pianistclare
Guest
The Mass offered by SSPX and the EF are TOTALLY different, and the EF is not part of this convo, as far as I’m concerned. One operates illegitimately, and the other is approved. Fro good reason. I don’t think any OF attendee has any issue with the EF.
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ProVobis
Guest
I would say 95-98% wouldn’t go back to fasting every Lenten day or Ember Day, 3-hr fasting before communion, regular confession, ad orientem, and a majority of the pre-Vatican II crowd doesn’t even go to Church anymore.
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ProVobis
Guest
I don’t remember whether you asked me or not but seriousness of the matter was the given reason why the U.S. $1 bill and the Seal of the U.S. were written in Latin. And it was for the world to read.
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