Latin Mass Society asks bishops to embrace traditionalists as ‘spiritual children’

[gracepoole]

There are people who attend the TLM out of an ego-identity attachment to the religion, not for the sake of growing closer to Jesus Christ. If getting closer to Jesus Christ was the real agenda, they would have no problem attending Mass in their home parish, regardless of the format.

This doesn’t at all describe the EF-devotees I know. They believe the EF emphasizes the sacrificial nature of the Mass more than the OF does and they prefer that approach to the Mass. I don’t doubt that there are some traditionalists who prefer the EF for other reasons but I don’t think they represent the majority. All of those whom I know also don’t disparage the OF. They only disparage liturgical abuses, which are more common in the OF (though not typical across all OF Masses). I don’t think it’s fair to assume that those who prefer the EF really aren’t trying to grow closer to Christ through it. Only God knows their motivations.

 

[gracepoole]

Really? And how many flash mob and polka masses have you actually seen or heard of, in comparison to the rote following of the EF because its “cool”?

As far as “coolness” goes, you may be right about that. But have you seen the percentage of parishes that even mention the EF?

I honestly don’t think most Catholics are even aware that the EF is offered anywhere these days. For most Catholics, I doubt the Summorum Pontificum registered with them at all. I’m guessing the number of Catholics who think the EF is “cool” is extremely small.

 

[SWolf]

some here say that OF parishes frequently have parishioners who openly embrace heresy. Well, is that necessarily the parish’s fault for not having the TLM? Correlation does not equal causation.

It’s more a “get the beam out of your own eye before getting the splinter out of mine” type response.

Anti-semitism and conspiracy theories aside, the TLM crowd still doesn’t seem like the kind of people I want to be around. They seem to treat anyone not a part of their inner circle as scheming Modernists and clones of Judas, often using the pejoratives “neo-Catholic” or “AmChurch”.

What they don’t realize is that the TLM is not a luxury everyone has easily available, and that many OF attendees are repelled from the EF not by the Latin or the traditional aspect of it, but the supercilious elitism of EF attendees. But neither of those seem to matter to the latter tribe; in their eyes, OF attendees are all heretics and Modernists, despite evidence to the contrary. To the TLM crowd, if you go the OF, you go to happy-clappy folk services or clown Masses. A beautiful Novus Ordo, to them, is an oxymoron.

I’m good friends with a person who heads up a Juventutem chapter. He, and everyone helping him out, is nothing like you are saying. He even goes out of his way to get SSPXers to go to a licit Catholic Mass. I’ve been to a few of the Masses he helped orchestrate, and see the attitude you see in maybe 3 or 4 of the 50 or so young people who attend. Unfortunately, like in OF parishes, the most obnoxious and irrational people tend to be the loudest. That goes for EF as well as OF.

 

[Seamus_L]

When I come back (to earth) from a TLM with choir and musicians, it just saddens me that anyone could possibly be against it. It’s like I said before, alot of people just don’t understand our attachment to it.

 

[pianistclare]

When I come back (to earth) from a TLM with choir and musicians, it just saddens me that anyone could possibly be against it. It’s like I said before, alot of people just don’t understand our attachment to it.

The OF is just as beautiful.
It’s Christ that makes Mass beautiful, not the people or the music, or the language.
Why doesn’t anyone get that?

 

[ProVobis]

The OF is just as beautiful.
It’s Christ that makes Mass beautiful, not the people or the music, or the language.
Why doesn’t anyone get that?

Yes, but is there any bishop threatening to take the OF away, like they did in the '60’s with the old mass? I’ll guarantee that the EF will never be imposed that way on any of us.

As Pope Benedict stated:

the fear was expressed in discussions about the awaited Motu Proprio, that the possibility of a wider use of the 1962 Missal would lead to disarray or even divisions within parish communities. This fear also strikes me as quite unfounded. The use of the old Missal presupposes a certain degree of liturgical formation and some knowledge of the Latin language; neither of these is found very often.

 

[LongingSoul]

Yes, but is there any bishop threatening to take the OF away, like they did in the '60’s with the old mass? I’ll guarantee that the EF will never be imposed that way on any of us.

As Pope Benedict stated:

It wasn’t just some mean Bishops replacing one form of the Mass with another… it was the Catholic Church. The Church on earth… Christ with us. If the Church in her wisdom and with the benefit of her wealth of theological resources, holy and wise theologians and mystics, guided by the Holy Spirit, decided to reinstate the Latin Mass for the benefit of souls… good Catholics would accept and learn and follow her to the end of time.

What we are talking about here are people who don’t want what the Church wants. They want their own thing despite what the Church has deemed for the universal Catholic Mass. That’s the difference between disputes in other Christian Churchs and the Catholic Church… we have a rock of truth around which true human unity can grow.

 

[Neofight]

The OF is just as beautiful.
It’s Christ that makes Mass beautiful, not the people or the music, or the language.
Why doesn’t anyone get that?

Liturgy is wonderful, but like the 10 Commandments (as Paul discusses in Galatians), the word of the Liturgy in any language, without actions, is not going to save us…

At the time of judgment, our names in the book of life (or not) will determine whether we live in the presence of God, not the words in the Missal we preferred!

 

[SWolf]

Liturgy is wonderful, but like the 10 Commandments (as Paul discusses in Galatians), the word of the Liturgy in any language, without actions, is not going to save us…

At the time of judgment, our names in the book of life (or not) will determine whether we live in the presence of God, not the words in the Missal we preferred!

Lex orandi, lex credendi

 

[justsomeguy085]

From the Ascent of Mt. Carmel by this Holy Doctor:

They place more reliance upon these methods and** kinds of ceremony than upon the reality of their prayer**, and herein they greatly offend and displease God.

I refer, for example, to a Mass at which there must be so many candles, neither more nor fewer; which has to be said by the priest in such or such a way; and must be at such or such an hour, and neither sooner nor later; and must be after a certain day, neither sooner nor later; and the prayers and stations must be made at such and such times, with such or such ceremonies, and neither sooner nor later nor in any other manner; and the person who makes them must have such or such qualities or qualifications. And there are those who think that, if any of these details which they have laid down be wanting, nothing is accomplished.

This is nothing less than to tempt God and to anger Him greatly, so much so that He sometimes gives leave to the devil to deceive them …

Your also know to be a EF hater on these forums aren’t you?

 

[Sirach2]

Your also know to be a EF hater on these forums aren’t you?

I merely gave backup info to JimR-OCDS’s words from St. John. If you noticed, I made no comment whatsoever beyond posting the Saint’s words, just in case folks thought he made it up.

You are an EF devotee, I presume? You are making Jim’s point perfectly.

 

[ServusHumilis]

It wasn’t just some mean Bishops replacing one form of the Mass with another… it was the Catholic Church. The Church on earth… Christ with us. If the Church in her wisdom and with the benefit of her wealth of theological resources, holy and wise theologians and mystics, guided by the Holy Spirit, decided to reinstate the Latin Mass for the benefit of souls… good Catholics would accept and learn and follow her to the end of time.

What we are talking about here are people who don’t want what the Church wants. They want their own thing despite what the Church has deemed for the universal Catholic Mass. That’s the difference between disputes in other Christian Churchs and the Catholic Church… we have a rock of truth around which true human unity can grow.

Nonsense. Apparently you’ve never been to Mass at the Vatican or read the documents of Vatican II. The Ordinary Form of the Mass as celebrated in many places does not even incorporate the reforms as intended by the fathers of VII. It is not universal in any way. Had it retained Latin in certain parts as was certainly intended perhaps it could be called universal but as is you could go to Mass in several different countries and what you’d see is something completely different everywhere. It’s as if the councils of bishops got together and said “screw you Pope… we’re doing it our way!” If Mass was offered as intended there would have no need for the Extraordinary Form. Why do you think Pope Benedict widened its use? Obviously to show people where the Mass came from and how it should be celebrated.

If you can’t see the results of the last 50 years and the harm done to the Church and the world at large you are absolutely blind. The Catholic Church is the only force in the world that can combat evil which it is no longer doing as it once did.

 

[ARSpade]

The OF is just as beautiful.
It’s Christ that makes Mass beautiful, not the people or the music, or the language.
Why doesn’t anyone get that?

I guess you’re right.

I mean, one of the OF masses I attended in the Diocese of Scranton recently helped me to more deeply pray a few prayers about apologizing to Christ for sins. Which was beautiful.

It was that or bother to actually watch six girls in white robes and a priest dance around the the altar.

 

[ARSpade]

. They want their own thing despite what the Church has deemed for the universal Catholic Mass.

If you actually read the Vatican II documents and compare them to most masses in North America and Europe then you’ll realize you’re not actually seeing what the Church has deemed for the universal Catholic Mass.

I’d absolutely love to go to a Catholic Mass that actually adhered to Vatican 2. In 32 years I don’t believe I actually ever have.

 

[LongingSoul]

Your also know to be a EF hater on these forums aren’t you?

That reminded me of the childish comeback from a teenage boy… “but your mother!”. The fact is that there is a long history of disordered attachment to ceremony and ritual at the expense of true piety and spiritual growth in God. Read Matthew 23. Would you then call Jesus a ‘hater’?

 

[LongingSoul]

Nonsense. Apparently you’ve never been to Mass at the Vatican or read the documents of Vatican II. The Ordinary Form of the Mass as celebrated in many places does not even incorporate the reforms as intended by the fathers of VII. It is not universal in any way. Had it retained Latin in certain parts as was certainly intended perhaps it could be called universal but as is you could go to Mass in several different countries and what you’d see is something completely different everywhere. It’s as if the councils of bishops got together and said “screw you Pope… we’re doing it our way!” If Mass was offered as intended there would have no need for the Extraordinary Form. Why do you think Pope Benedict widened its use? Obviously to show people where the Mass came from and how it should be celebrated.

If you can’t see the results of the last 50 years and the harm done to the Church and the world at large you are absolutely blind. The Catholic Church is the only force in the world that can combat evil which it is no longer doing as it once did.

I haven’t been to Mass at the Vatican but I have been to Mass said by Pope StJPII when he came out to Australia and I’ve witnessed many, many Masses said by different Pope at different times on TV. Have even all the Popes screwed up the Vatican II reform?

 

[LongingSoul]

If you actually read the Vatican II documents and compare them to most masses in North America and Europe then you’ll realize you’re not actually seeing what the Church has deemed for the universal Catholic Mass.

I’d absolutely love to go to a Catholic Mass that actually adhered to Vatican 2. In 32 years I don’t believe I actually ever have.

But how is it possible that you have come to know more than all the post V2 Popes?

 

[Seamus_L]

For perhaps my last comment in this thread, if it weren’t for the TLM, I seriously doubt I would have ever returned to the Catholic Church nearly two decades ago…

 

[ProVobis]

…decided to reinstate the Latin Mass for the benefit of souls… good Catholics would accept and learn and follow her to the end of time.

For the record, the Latin Mass had never been abrogated. (In fact, the New Mass was also officially promulgated in Latin and the third edition is typically in Latin.) What was actually reinstated was specifically the Missal of 1962 by Pope John Paul II in 1984. Those in violation of this, such as those celebrating the 1945 Missal, for example, are not doing “what the Church wants.”

 

[JimR-OCDS]

gracepoole

This doesn’t at all describe the EF-devotees I know. They believe the EF emphasizes the sacrificial nature of the Mass more than the OF does and they prefer that approach to the Mass.

And this is where their error would be. They believe that the EF is superior to the OF, which is not the case. Both are equally valid formats and Jesus is present in both consecrated Hosts. But it’s the very attitude I see so often.

Going to and OF Mass at a monastery is going to have a level of reverence far greater than at the local parish. That doesn’t mean parishioners should abandon their parishes and attend Mass exclusively at the nearest monastery.

For most people., the monastery will not be where you get married, nor where your children will Baptized. They will not have your funeral Mass there. That is the function of your local parish where you should belong to. If it’s not reverent, make it reverent by being reverent. If there is abuse, talk to your pastor about it. In other words, you be the shinning light in your parish instead of giving them the cold shoulder and traveling out of your way to a monastery or a TLM at a different parish.

The parish I grew up in, which is another city, had a TLM. They at first had it at 8AM. However, it was attended primarily by people outside the parish, and because of the length of the Mass and the socializing that went on afterwards, it interfere with the two parish Masses which came after. So, they change the time for the TLM to be the last Mass of the day, 12 noon. That lasted until the priest who celebrated it was arrested for steeling from the parish coffers. He left the priesthood and there hasn’t been a TLM there since.

Talk about abuse.

Jim