Latin Mass Society asks bishops to embrace traditionalists as ‘spiritual children’

[Neofight]

Everyone is attached to what they grew up with. That’s nothing new.
Believing that one way is holier than another, (and let’s not kid ourselves…this is at the root of it) or that God only speaks one language or prefers one over all the others …?

I’m pretty attached to some hymns. But I’m not going to say that unless they use only the ones I like at Mass, then it’s not valid. That’s the point.

That, and a new generation who think Latin mass is just retro-chic…either way it’s unhealthy.

 

[a_priori]

I was definitely let down. But that’s just me. Maybe you’ll feel differently.

I think that if possible, every Catholic should visit a Latin Mass, just to be aware of the history.

Thank you. I would just like to get a frame of reference. People seem fairly polarized.

 

[hazcompat]

holywisdomlatinmass.org/other-news/

Peace

 

[JimR-OCDS]

And…? I’m not trying to be rude—I truly don’t discount your personal experiences—but… what’s that have to do with anything? I could say, “If attachment to preconceived and radically incorrect views of Vatican II is for any reason other than being closer to Jesus Christ, it’s a disordered attachment." Or, "If attachment to donut holes and potato chips and porn and beautiful women who are not your wife is for any reason other than being closer to Jesus Christ, it’s a disordered attachment.” That’s true, and I could post it in a thread under L&S, but people would try to bait me and probably 14 others would report me for being “uncharitable.” (I hate that word. I’m working on it.)

Tbh I see a whole lot more pathological attachment to fatty food, porn, cheating, and terrible reductionistic views of Vatican II like “The Council set us free from the terrible past!” than attachment to external aesthetic elements of the EF.

***not you just in general

just some thoughts

You’ve misunderstood my post about disordered attachment.

I’ll repeat again, unless the reason you attend TLM is to grow closer to Jesus Christ, you’re attachment to the TLM is disordered.

St John of the Cross spoke of the need for detachment from things that are not of Jesus Christ, and this includes attachments to religious things.

Whether it’s the beauty of the rite in of itself, religious items, or whatever, attachments to anything other than getting closer to Jesus Christ, must be given up.

There are people who attend the TLM out of an ego-identity attachment to the religion, not for the sake of growing closer to Jesus Christ. If getting closer to Jesus Christ was the real agenda, they would have no problem attending Mass in their home parish, regardless of the format.

Of course there are also people attached to a liberal political ideology, i.e. the call for women’s ordination, gay marriage, etc. These too are disordered and perhaps even sinful, especially when they rebel against the Church.

My point in all this is that we must be Christ centered in all things. Our only agenda is to align our will with His. It doesn’t require traveling 50 miles to a strange parish each Sunday to attend a TLM. Christ is present in the Eucharist and the communities of our home parishes.

Jim

 

[SWolf]

Pope Benedict XVI caused more division than unifying when he allowed full use of the TLM, which was meant as a compromise with SSPX members, hoping they’d return to the Church.

It didn’t work. They would never return peacefully.

Pope John Paul II was wise in not giving in to their demands.

Jim

I explained this once before, but Benedict was not a huge fan of the new liturgical changes. The fact he was part of the progressive German group that had massive clout in Vatican II, and then reverted later in life to a much more traditionalist stance, should give us all pause.

In the two dioceses I was a part of, one of the largest chunks of seminarians were from parishes with an EF mass. That’s not a coincidence.

Also, JPII came very close to a compromise with the SSPX. Marcel Lefebvre backed out at the last minute.

Explain, in detail, how the Extraordinary Form has increased division. Not a “Tradder X said Ordinary Form goers were heretics on an anonymous board.” For every one of those I find I could find ten Ordinary Form Mass goers espousing open heresy on a board. Do you say the same for the other rites in Catholicism specified below?

Alexandrian liturgical tradition; 2 liturgical rites
Coptic Rite
Ethiopic Rite

Antiochian (Antiochene or West-Syrian) liturgical tradition; 3 liturgical rites
Maronite Rite
(West) Syrian Rite
Syro-Malankara Rite

Armenian Rite; 1 liturgical rite
Armenian Rite

Chaldean or East Syrian liturgical tradition; 2 liturgical rites
Chaldean Rite
Syro-Malabar Rite

Byzantine (Constantinopolitan) liturgical tradition; 1 liturgical rite
Byzantine Rite
Latin (Western) liturgical rites

Roman Rite, whose historical forms are usually classified as follows
Tridentine Mass
Mass of Paul VI (1970–present)
Anglican Use (restricted to formerly Anglican congregations)
Ambrosian Rite (Milan, Italy and neighbouring areas)
Rite of Braga (Braga, Portugal)
Mozarabic Rite (Toledo and Salamanca, Spain)

 

[SWolf]

There are people who attend the TLM out of an ego-identity attachment to the religion, not for the sake of growing closer to Jesus Christ. If getting closer to Jesus Christ was the real agenda, they would have no problem attending Mass in their home parish, regardless of the format.

Jim

So if your home parish switched all of their masses to the Extraordinary Form, you would have no problem with it? If so, why the animosity towards the EF?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

So if your home parish switched all of their masses to the Extraordinary Form, you would have no problem with it? If so, why the animosity towards the EF?

If my home parish switched to the TLM, I would prefer that they stayed with the OF, but I would stay in my home parish, for Jesus is as much there as he is in the OF of the Eucharist.

Anyway. in talking about the TLM with my pastor, there is no chance of it coming into my parish. He said he’d retire first for he has no training in Latin and feels too old to begin.

Jim

 

[Sirach2]

You’ve misunderstood my post about disordered attachment.

I’ll repeat again, unless the reason you attend TLM is to grow closer to Jesus Christ, you’re attachment to the TLM is disordered.

St John of the Cross spoke of the need for detachment from things that are not of Jesus Christ, and this includes attachments to religious things.

From the Ascent of Mt. Carmel by this Holy Doctor:

They place more reliance upon these methods and** kinds of ceremony than upon the reality of their prayer**, and herein they greatly offend and displease God.

I refer, for example, to a Mass at which there must be so many candles, neither more nor fewer; which has to be said by the priest in such or such a way; and must be at such or such an hour, and neither sooner nor later; and must be after a certain day, neither sooner nor later; and the prayers and stations must be made at such and such times, with such or such ceremonies, and neither sooner nor later nor in any other manner; and the person who makes them must have such or such qualities or qualifications. And there are those who think that, if any of these details which they have laid down be wanting, nothing is accomplished.

This is nothing less than to tempt God and to anger Him greatly, so much so that He sometimes gives leave to the devil to deceive them …

 

[JimR-OCDS]

From the Ascent of Mt. Carmel by this Holy Doctor:

They place more reliance upon these methods and** kinds of ceremony than upon the reality of their prayer**, and herein they greatly offend and displease God.

I refer, for example, to a Mass at which there must be so many candles, neither more nor fewer; which has to be said by the priest in such or such a way; and must be at such or such an hour, and neither sooner nor later; and must be after a certain day, neither sooner nor later; and the prayers and stations must be made at such and such times, with such or such ceremonies, and neither sooner nor later nor in any other manner; and the person who makes them must have such or such qualities or qualifications. And there are those who think that, if any of these details which they have laid down be wanting, nothing is accomplished.

This is nothing less than to tempt God and to anger Him greatly, so much so that He sometimes gives leave to the devil to deceive them …

My point exactly

Jim

 

[ProVobis]

And I grew up with the Latin Mass. It doesn’t work for me. :tiphat:

Each to his own. That’s the point. God bless.

Not to deviate too much from the OP, but if I were a professional musician (and I was once an aspiring church organist), I’d welcome any opportunity to play where there is demand for me, including Protestant churches. I discussed such possibilities with a friend and AFAIK, that is no sin so long as I meet my obligation at a Catholic Mass.

 

[ProVobis]

That, and a new generation who think Latin mass is just retro-chic…either way it’s unhealthy.

But flash mobs and polka Masses to get crowds to come to church once or twice are healthy?

 

[ProVobis]

If getting closer to Jesus Christ was the real agenda, they would have no problem attending Mass in their home parish, regardless of the format.

Then why are bishops and pastors setting up personal parishes for Polish and Spanish communities? I know of one such Polish mission locally which brings in people from distances further than I have to drive for an EF. And I can tell you from experience they are far more devotional than those of my local territorial parish, many of whom don’t want to be bothered to come to church on a Holy Day.

 

[ringil]

It’s sad and unnecessary to see division between OF and EF worshipers. I can’t help but feel that the Devil revels in such dynamics in the Church.

There’s just no point in it.

Both the OF and EF celebrate the same sacrifice and capture the same truths of our faith. I like the EF but I usually attend my local OF. Both are fine with me.

Neither is superior and to believe such is against Church teaching.

 

[Neofight]

But flash mobs and polka Masses to get crowds to come to church once or twice are healthy?

Really? And how many flash mob and polka masses have you actually seen or heard of, in comparison to the rote following of the EF because its “cool”?

 

[Neofight]

Actually, with each additional post trying to counter Jim’s observations, his very points are reinforced, more and more.

 

[ProVobis]

Really? And how many flash mob and polka masses have you actually seen or heard of

Let’s see now. Detroit and my local parish for starters. You think I’m making this up?

As far as “coolness” goes, you may be right about that. But have you seen the percentage of parishes that even mention the EF?

 

[ProVobis]

Actually, with each additional post trying to counter Jim’s observations, his very points are reinforced, more and more.

Why? Simply because one chooses to reply? Your statement does not demonstrate anything more than a thumbs up.

 

[johnnyc176]

It’s sad and unnecessary to see division between OF and EF worshipers. I can’t help but feel that the Devil revels in such dynamics in the Church.

There’s just no point in it.

Both the OF and EF celebrate the same sacrifice and capture the same truths of our faith. I like the EF but I usually attend my local OF. Both are fine with me.

Neither is superior and to believe such is against Church teaching.

Both are fine with me also. Yes there are many who think the OF is superior to the EF. I think it is a mindset that is from the ‘spirit’ of Vatican II crowd when liberals willfully misinterpreted the documents with the intent on ‘changing’ the Catholic Church to more progressive ideology, one of the ways being the suppression of the TLM. Thankfully Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI righted the wrongs and freed up the celebration of the TLM with Summorum Pontificum. As the TLM gains in popularity there will naturally be some angst from those who have a bias against it but eventually the vision of Benedict XVI will prove to be correct as shown with an increase of attitudes like yours.

 

[JackVk]

some here say that OF parishes frequently have parishioners who openly embrace heresy. Well, is that necessarily the parish’s fault for not having the TLM? Correlation does not equal causation.

Anti-semitism and conspiracy theories aside, the TLM crowd still doesn’t seem like the kind of people I want to be around. They seem to treat anyone not a part of their inner circle as scheming Modernists and clones of Judas, often using the pejoratives “neo-Catholic” or “AmChurch”.

What they don’t realize is that the TLM is not a luxury everyone has easily available, and that many OF attendees are repelled from the EF not by the Latin or the traditional aspect of it, but the supercilious elitism of EF attendees. But neither of those seem to matter to the latter tribe; in their eyes, OF attendees are all heretics and Modernists, despite evidence to the contrary. To the TLM crowd, if you go the OF, you go to happy-clappy folk services or clown Masses. A beautiful Novus Ordo, to them, is an oxymoron.

(Believe me, I know “litter-gy” when I see it. The most Modernist, liturgically-abusive Mass I’ve ever been to was, ironically, at a parish called St. Pius X.)

 

[Neofight]

Why? Simply because one chooses to reply? Your statement does not demonstrate anything more than a thumbs up.

No, its what is said, and not simply that it is said, and by what is said, even “anything more than a thumbs up” isn’t required.