Latin returning to Mass

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maklavan:
Dream on, my dears. This is yet another of these apocryphal stories propagated by the desperate elements in the Church who have never accepted the work of the Church since 1962. Let’s have a look at the facts, for a change. There are 1.1 billion Catholics in the world.** 99.9% use the vernacular**. The vast majority do not know or care about latin. Do you really think they are going to rush to embrace the dead language? Those who push for a return of latin belong to the Lefebvrist cult or other dissenting elements. They are a tiny group of no consequence except on some Catholic forums. Gregorian chant? excellent! The use of the great music written with latin words? why not? A return to latin as the universal language of the Mass? forget it.
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actuall a higher and higher percentage are using all-inclusive, or self-innovative language… may they all be properly trained some day.

Even in latin, your opinion is of no consequence and quite offensive… get up on the wrong side of the bed today? ? ?

Stay alert… perhaps B16 will need your approval to correct some of the disciplines in the liturgy.:nope:
 
Joe Gloor:
An excellent article, indeed.
Unfortunately, your priest must be a “Traditional Mass hater” since he brings up the “many sat in the pews praying their rosaries”.
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Also, the writer states quite clearly that he was not alive in the Pre vatican II era, so he would obviously have no first hand knowledge of what it was like.

Would he? Now I on the other hand was alive and often served Mass in those woe be gotten unenlightened pre Vatican II days. I will not say there were not people who prayed their rosaries during Mass. I’m sure there were, especially during the meditative silent aspects of it. But you didn’t see a sea of rosaries fluttering in the wind, the clacking drowning out all sounds, and those not engrossed in their rosaries either totally confused or sound asleep

Nope, it wasn’t that way at all. Hate to bust your bubble.
 
I grew up with the Tridentine mass (but barely remember it). I attended my first Tridentine mass as an adult last Sunday (FSSP). I had forgotten how different it is. It’s not just the Latin. The whole focus, rubrics, and reverance are radically different. It really hammers home that the mass is a Holy Sacrifice, not a Protestant worship service (of which I have attended many). I think when we focus only on the Latin, we miss a lot of the point. I agree that the Latin is important, however, if catholics used to attending the N.O. were to attend a Tridentine mass said with the english translation in the Missal (I’m NOT suggesting that), they would still be shocked (pleasantly) at the difference. But you have to be there to really appreciate it. It was a revelation for me, and all I would hope for is just a choice of NO vs. Trindentine. A city the size of Sacramento with just one Tridetine church offering mass is absurd. I believe if people had the opportunity that I do, they would flock back to the church in droves.
 
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dljl:
I grew up with the Tridentine mass (but barely remember it). I attended my first Tridentine mass as an adult last Sunday (FSSP). I had forgotten how different it is. It’s not just the Latin. The whole focus, rubrics, and reverance are radically different. It really hammers home that the mass is a Holy Sacrifice, not a Protestant worship service (of which I have attended many). I think when we focus only on the Latin, we miss a lot of the point. I agree that the Latin is important, however, if catholics used to attending the N.O. were to attend a Tridentine mass said with the english translation in the Missal (I’m NOT suggesting that), they would still be shocked (pleasantly) at the difference. But you have to be there to really appreciate it. It was a revelation for me, and all I would hope for is just a choice of NO vs. Trindentine. A city the size of Sacramento with just one Tridetine church offering mass is absurd. I believe if people had the opportunity that I do, they would flock back to the church in droves.
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Absolutely… and thank you for saying so.
 
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palmas85:
Hi Joe 🙂 I did not say you were a Traditional Mass hater. I said they always bring up the same arguments that you did. I just built a shoe so to speak. Now if you want put it on and loudly proclaim that it fits, go ahead. The truth is that haters of the Traditional Mass DO always bring up those same tired worn out arguments over and over and over again. To me it is a wonder that the Mass survived at all with everyone being so miserable, uninformed, out of touch with God, downtroddeen and only knowing how to say a rosary for comfort. It must have been a horrific and tragic time being kept in bondage by the saintly priest class and the chains of Rome.

Sorry Joe. I don’t happen to adhere to the adage charity at all costs. I believe in the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Some people don’t like the truth because it hurts.

Doesn’t it Joe 🙂
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I guess I’ll just have to say it since if I don’t you will all think otherwise. I am not a “Traditional Mass hater”. That’s the truth and it doesn’t hurt a bit! :nope:
And I found it disconcerting that you would think I was based on anything I had written.
That said, I’m sure there was a lot of misery as you sarcastically suggest. (Watch out for netmil(name removed by moderator) on that sarcasm - she doesn’t like it.)
I thought the letter from the preist in the bulletin referred to above put it quite well.

MrS said:
www3.catholicweb.com/bulletins/27402/Feb-05-2006.pdf

Before the Council of Vatican II in the early 1960s, many Catholics felt they had no personal connection with God. The Mass was a distant exercise carried out by the priest while many sat in the pews praying their rosaries. Today the Mass is easier — more “userfriendly”. I consent that there is more than a little truth to this picture.
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I still contend that the reason “they always bring up the same arguments” is because they are valid arguments. You aren’t really refuting them by calling the authors “Traditional Mass haters”, you’re just name-calling.
 
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palmas85:
Also, the writer states quite clearly that he was not alive in the Pre vatican II era, so he would obviously have no first hand knowledge of what it was like.

Would he? Now I on the other hand was alive and often served Mass in those woe be gotten unenlightened pre Vatican II days. I will not say there were not people who prayed their rosaries during Mass. I’m sure there were, especially during the meditative silent aspects of it. But you didn’t see a sea of rosaries fluttering in the wind, the clacking drowning out all sounds, and those not engrossed in their rosaries either totally confused or sound asleep

Nope, it wasn’t that way at all. Hate to bust your bubble.
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No you don’t - but alas you haven’t. I recall the Tridentine Mass myself and found it wanting. And you still haven’t explained why V2 would change something that didn’t need changing.
 
Let’s not overlook this observation from the bulletin either:

No matter what, a great
deal of our experience of
liturgy depends on our effort,
education and degree
of intimacy with God. (This intimacy
with God is something that can ebb and
flow depending on a person’s situation.
Some times are better than others.) A
person whose prayer life is stagnant or
non-existent at home, will very likely
not find the liturgy vibrant unless it appears
to be something more like entertainment
than a contemplation of the
Infinite Divine.
Prayer requires a personal dedication
to God. Like communicating with a
spouse, often it takes work for clarity
and union to be achieved.

Perhaps the Latin prevented some of the entertainment from replacing the reverence.
 
Joe Gloor:
No you don’t - but alas you haven’t. I recall the Tridentine Mass myself and found it wanting. And you still haven’t explained why V2 would change something that didn’t need changing.
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VII didn’t… the changes that I find objectionable are those that have come from “litergists” who did not comprehend what “active participation” realy meant.
 
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MrS:
Perhaps the Latin prevented some of the entertainment from replacing the reverence.
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And perhaps the Latin prevents some of the reverence by replacing it with confusion, division and false sanctimony.
 
Joe Gloor:
And perhaps the Latin prevents some of the reverence by replacing it with confusion, division and false sanctimony.
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That’s an odd thing to say about the offical language of your church.
We have a Latin NO every Wednesday at our parish. When we use Latin responses, it is announced before the mass starts (along with the alert to turn off cell phones and pagers) that the responses can be found in the blue inserts at the back of the Missals.

Why would you think that this is confusing, it divides us or that it shows a false sanctimony?

If anything, I think that hearing the five year olds in the choir sing Latin gives an interest to all who hear it.

My girls know what they are singing and it gives them a leg up to the roots of many common English words. When one becomes a Doctor and the other a Botanist, I will trust that they will have an easier time because of the Latin they learned in church.
 
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MrS:
I opt for what ever has more reverence attached.
I would rather have “too much” reverence and be wrong…
than too much entertainment and be wrong.
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I just don’t think Latin is any more reverent than English, or any other language.
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
Why would you think that this is confusing, it divides us or that it shows a false sanctimony?
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If you don’t know what the Latin means, it is confusing.
If everybody else is speaking Latin and your not, it separates you.
If you notice that the poor shmuck next to you isn’t following the Latin, you get the feeling that your so much more ‘holy’ than he, which is false sanctimony.
 
Joe Gloor:
If you don’t know what the Latin means, it is confusing.
If everybody else is speaking Latin and your not, it separates you.
If you notice that the poor shmuck next to you isn’t following the Latin, you get the feeling that your so much more ‘holy’ than he, which is false sanctimony.
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If the person doesn’t know what the Latin means there are two reasons, either 1) he has not attended many Masses. (the words in Latin at the Gloria have the same meaning as the Gloria in English) or 2) He can’t read (the English is written right next to the Latin in the inserts)

If the person is not speaking the words it doesn’t mean that he is not following along. Point in fact, my Presbyterian hubby follows the Latin at Mass. If he can do it, if my five year old can do it, if my eight year old can do it, anyone who can read can do it too.

If I notice that the poor person next to me (do you know what that word you used MEANS? Hint, don’t call any Jewish friends by that name) I feel that he has not been there long. I don’t feel better about myself, cause I was there too a year ago when I joined this parish.

My thought is, if you want the vernacular, good on ya.
But please don’t think that I am any kind of elitist for enjoying prayer as my Grandparents did.
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
do you know what that word you used MEANS?
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According to the first dictionary I found on line:
Slang A clumsy or stupid person; an oaf.
Which is what I meant.
They did provide the etymology, though… :whistle:
 
I don’t think we should force latin on anyone, however the Holy Father created a mechanism for the offering of the indult Tridentine mass, but the reality is that the choice does not exist for most Catholics. Why is this?
 
Joe Gloor:
If you notice that the poor shmuck next to you isn’t following the Latin, you get the feeling that your so much more ‘holy’ than he, which is false sanctimony.
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That seems quite a leap.

And what feeling ought I expect when I notice the poor fellow next to me not following the vernacular? :confused:

tee
 
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dljl:
I don’t think we should force latin on anyone, however the Holy Father created a mechanism for the offering of the indult Tridentine mass, but the reality is that the choice does not exist for most Catholics. Why is this?
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Most Catholics aren’t interested.
 
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