Latin returning to Mass

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Joe Gloor:
I should spend less time studying the faith and more time studying the language?
“People should want to…” but if they don’t, then what?
Wear hair-shirts, self-flagellate, pray while kneeling on dried kernels of corn?
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Well I guess if you want to you can. It won’t bother me. But you know, I’m not saying learn ALL of Latin, just a few prayers. How is that going to impede your study of the Faith? If they don’t want to learn some things in Latin, then they should have some humility and learn them anyway. It seems to me that one could learn a lot about the Faith by studying the Scriptures in various Sacred languages. 👍
 
I am not opposed to learning Latin - even ‘just a few prayers’.
I’m not even all that opposed to “Latin returning to Mass”, personally, I just don’t understand why it’s more important than, for instance, a solid Homily against abortion or other social ills.
When you start into your litany of what people should want to do, I could give you my own list and learning Latin would probably not be in the top ten.
People should want to attend Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation - but the US Bishops continue to save them from sin by moving the Holy Days to Sunday, because of the poor attendance of Holy Day Masses.
People should want to sing (period!) at Mass - never mind the Gregorian Chant - but it’s usually just a choir performance, isn’t it?
(Oh but, Chant will change all that - sure it will.)
People should wait (at least) until the priest leaves the altar at the end of Mass before running out to the parking lot in order to get immediate seating at the I-HOP before the crowd arrives.
(Latin would probably help here, they won’t know when the Mass is ended if the priest doesn’t say it in the vernacular.)
My only point is that people who sign up with the Catholic Answers forums are not your average Catholics.
You think it’s ‘dumbing down’ the Mass to say it in a language they’ll understand, but I disagree - the Mass is the same in any language - and Mass, like the Sabbath is made for man, not man for the Mass.
 
Joe Gloor:
I hope you aren’t insinuating that because the Mass isn’t in Latin that the true nature of the Mass itself is lost. Any Mass poorly celebrated isn’t going to be as good as a Mass that is celebrated well.
Tying bad theology to the Pauline Mass as if it were some kind of a social movement is a mistake that can’t be blamed on the Mass itself.
Nevertheless, the full and active participation of the people at Mass is the aim of using the vernacular.
I never cease to wonder why the people who are so upset by the ‘performance’ aspect of the Life-Teen Mass don’t see the same aspect in the TLM.

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I never even brought Latin up, you did. I have never advocated a full return to Latin. I’ve never even advocated a full return to the Traditional Mass, although I personally think it a good idea 👍 The true nature of the Mass, the unbloody re-presentation of the sacrifice of Christ at Calvary is lost I think because people don’t want to be reminded of it. They want to feel good about themselves and how much good they are doing. Nobody wants to remember or think about the fact that OUR SINS mine, yours and everybody elses, put Christ on that cross. I don’t really think He wanted to do it, we made it necessary.

No bad theology cannot be blamed on the mass, but the condition of the mass can be blamed on bad theology, because the mass itself is an outgrowth and a representation of that same theology.

I never felt that my participation in the Traditional Mass was anything less than full and active. I prayed along with the Priest, listened to the readings and the homily, prayed the Creed and the Our Father, contemplated on the suffering of Christ, prayed for the forgiveness of my sins, received communion and recited the closing prayers. True, I didn’t run around the church and try to look important and wouldn’t dream of entering the sanctuary, except when serving, old altar boy thing you know, but I think my participation was full and active. You really don’t need the vernacular for full and active participation. You just have to want to do it. Thats all.

I’m not surprised that the life teen statement came up. It usually does in these type of discussions. I haven’t heard it in a while though.
 
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palmas85:
I never even brought Latin up, you did.
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I only brought it up because it is the topic of the thread and you were running down the Mass - I assumed that Latin was one of your ‘problems’ - sorry.
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palmas85:
I’ve never even advocated a full return to the Traditional Mass, although I personally think it a good idea The true nature of the Mass, the unbloody re-presentation of the sacrifice of Christ at Calvary is lost I think because people don’t want to be reminded of it. They want to feel good about themselves and how much good they are doing. Nobody wants to remember or think about the fact that OUR SINS mine, yours and everybody elses, put Christ on that cross. I don’t really think He wanted to do it, we made it necessary.
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I don’t know who the they is that you’re talking about here. And I don’t know how it relates to the subject of Latin returning to the Mass, but it’s an interesting statement, are you talking about yourself or is this your judgement of everybody else?
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palmas85:
No bad theology cannot be blamed on the mass, but the condition of the mass can be blamed on bad theology, because the mass itself is an outgrowth and a representation of that same theology.
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There is nothing wrong with the Mass, other than abuses, which by definition, are not part of the Mass.
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palmas85:
I never felt that my participation in the Traditional Mass was anything less than full and active. I prayed along with the Priest, listened to the readings and the homily, prayed the Creed and the Our Father, contemplated on the suffering of Christ, prayed for the forgiveness of my sins, received communion and recited the closing prayers. True, I didn’t run around the church and try to look important and wouldn’t dream of entering the sanctuary, except when serving, old altar boy thing you know, but I think my participation was full and active. You really don’t need the vernacular for full and active participation. You just have to want to do it. Thats all.
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Well, that’s one person. What about the little old ladies who just said the Rosary throughout the Mass? The “condition” of the Tridentine Mass obviously needed work or V2 wouldn’t have changed it.
 
Joe Gloor:
I am not opposed to learning Latin - even ‘just a few prayers’.
I’m not even all that opposed to “Latin returning to Mass”, personally, I just don’t understand why it’s more important than, for instance, a solid Homily against abortion or other social ills.
When you start into your litany of what people should want to do, I could give you my own list and learning Latin would probably not be in the top ten.
People should want to attend Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation - but the US Bishops continue to save them from sin by moving the Holy Days to Sunday, because of the poor attendance of Holy Day Masses.
People should want to sing (period!) at Mass - never mind the Gregorian Chant - but it’s usually just a choir performance, isn’t it?
(Oh but, Chant will change all that - sure it will.)
People should wait (at least) until the priest leaves the altar at the end of Mass before running out to the parking lot in order to get immediate seating at the I-HOP before the crowd arrives.
(Latin would probably help here, they won’t know when the Mass is ended if the priest doesn’t say it in the vernacular.)
My only point is that people who sign up with the Catholic Answers forums are not your average Catholics.
You think it’s ‘dumbing down’ the Mass to say it in a language they’ll understand, but I disagree - the Mass is the same in any language - and Mass, like the Sabbath is made for man, not man for the Mass.
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Well of course abortion should be spoken about in homilies. If you look at how many have viewed this thread, it is over a 1000. You know, in the Dark and Middle ages, the laity chanted. I don’t think it’s dumbing down to have it in the vernacular. But totally -No. Of course its the same (argueably) in every language. As regards to moving holy Days, it seems the bishops just gave in. That’s all this seems to be. Water down everything for the sake of nothing.
 
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Ace86:
As regards to moving holy Days, it seems the bishops just gave in. That’s all this seems to be. Water down everything for the sake of nothing.
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I prefer to be more charitible to the Bishops, that they regarded attending Mass on a Monday as an undue burden upon the ‘work-oriented’ populace of the U.S. Knowing that many would sin by not attending, they relieved us of that burden by changing the day being celebrated up one day on the calendar.
Holy Days are not ‘everything.’
 
Joe Gloor:
I prefer to be more charitible to the Bishops, that they regarded attending Mass on a Monday as an undue burden upon the ‘work-oriented’ populace of the U.S. Knowing that many would sin by not attending, they relieved us of that burden by changing the day being celebrated up one day on the calendar.
Holy Days are not ‘everything.’
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Your view of sin reminds me of an old Bro. Dave Gardner routine. He had the perfect solution to the crime problem; just legalize everthing and there would be no crime. I guess the bishops heard the same routine, since the people won’t attend mass on Monday, just move it to Sunday and walah, no sin.
 
Joe Gloor:
t
You think it’s ‘dumbing down’ the Mass to say it in a language they’ll understand, but I disagree - the Mass is the same in any language - and Mass, like the Sabbath is made for man, not man for the Mass.
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I may be off base totally… but this comment seems wrong.

The Sabbath: on the seventh day HE rested.
The Commandment: we keep the LORD’s DAY holy

The Mass: a re-presentation of what Christ did for us. We attend to honor HIM
 
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AJV:
Do you mean to say that you don’t understand this but understand et ex Patre natum ante omnia saecula. Deum de Deo, Lumen de Lumine, Deum verum de Deo vero, genitum non factum, consubstantialem Patri, per quem omnia facta sunt ? :eek:

You are one strange person Dr. B.! 🙂

Here’s a word for you to ponder that I saw after a long time, on the the EC forum:

Homoousios
It may solve your problem 😃
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Nope. I barely understand anything of spoken Latin, except “locutus” and that’s only because it was in an old episode of that hideous Star Trek program. Sometimes it frightens me the amount of worthless flotsam I have careening around my skull. I can also tell you what 10% of 1.2 billion is, if you’d care to know?

And yes, I’m strange. :whacky:
 
tee_eff_em said:
Bombayens, Bombayensis

What makes you say that?

tee
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Good question… leads to this though process…

if “…mus” means “we”… or the plural… and it does

then perhaps I was subconsciencously thinking the Doc was not a we…
thus “mus” could not be used.

However… since he has expressed a desire to be referred to as a level of royalty

and hierarchy often refer to themselves in the “we”

and since the Doc often posts in the “wee” hours

perhaps the use-of-the-“mus” IS in order.

In any event, he can kissmus his own ringmus,.http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15/15_3_1v.gif
 
Joe Gloor:
.
I’m not even all that opposed to “Latin returning to Mass”, personally, I just don’t understand why it’s more important than, for instance, a solid Homily against abortion or other social ills.
People should want to sing (period!) at Mass - never mind the Gregorian Chant - but it’s usually just a choir performance, isn’t it?
(Oh but, Chant will change all that - sure it will.)
the Mass is the same in any language - and Mass, like the Sabbath is made for man, not man for the Mass.
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Dear Joe, Please do yourself and everyone else a favor by reading (yes, actually reading), the Constitution on the Liturgy (Sacrosanctum Concilium). Incidentally, the priests most inclined toward “solid” homilies on such subjects as abortion are also the ones most open to following the dictates of the Council.

Also: Do watch your paraphrasing. Your last statement sets my teeth on edge.

:tsktsk:

Anna
 
Anna Elizabeth:
Dear Joe, Please do yourself and everyone else a favor by reading (yes, actually reading), the Constitution on the Liturgy (Sacrosanctum Concilium). Incidentally, the priests most inclined toward “solid” homilies on such subjects as abortion are also the ones most open to following the dictates of the Council.

Also: Do watch your paraphrasing. Your last statement sets my teeth on edge.

:tsktsk:

Anna
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Out of curiosity, why does that last statement set your teeth on edge?
 
Joe Gloor:
I only brought it up because it is the topic of the thread and you were running down the Mass - I assumed that Latin was one of your ‘problems’ - sorry.

I don’t know who the they is that you’re talking about here. And I don’t know how it relates to the subject of Latin returning to the Mass, but it’s an interesting statement, are you talking about yourself or is this your judgement of everybody else?

There is nothing wrong with the Mass, other than abuses, which by definition, are not part of the Mass.

Well, that’s one person. What about the little old ladies who just said the Rosary throughout the Mass? The “condition” of the Tridentine Mass obviously needed work or V2 wouldn’t have changed it.
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I have never run down the Novus Ordo Mass. I attend the Novus Ordo Mass almost daily. Heck I stayed with it through all of the unbelievable experimentation and anything goes mentality of the 70’s. I didn’t even let the liberation theology and outright communist ideas of the Sisters of the Most Precious Blood :bigyikes: drive me away. When the late Holy Father John Paul II, of blessed memory authorized the indult I was grateful that I could once again attend what I have always considered to be the highest form of worship possible.

As far as they I am speaking of the majority of the people that I see at Mass.

I was wondering how long it would take you to bring up little old ladies saying ther rosaries during the Mass. It is always brought up, often with people complaining about the clacking of beads being a big distraction… However you did forget to bring up the hastily muttered Latin prayers, droning on in an incomprehensible language, 7 minute masses and nobody knowing what was going on. Traditional Mass haters always bring up the same arguments. So very very predictable. Oh and by the way, when I am at a Novus Ordo Mass would you believe that I hold my rosary in my hand :eek: Imagine what people might think! I do it for the same reason I did it years ago and the same reason most others did it then, since it is blessed it is a sacramental, and I feel that it helps bring me closer to Christ. A whole lot closer than holding hands with a perfect stranger who happens to be sitting next to me I might add.

As far as me being one person, you are right, but believe it or not, I was one of many, and still am. Most people did exactly what I did. Believe it or not.

And equally obviously the Novus Ordo needs work, or the Vatican wouldn’t be looking so hard at changing aspects of it. 🙂

It would be very interesting to see what all the Traditional Mass haters do if the Holy Father did mandate some form of return to that style of mass, very interesting indeed.
 
Joe Gloor:
I just don’t care for it’s use in the Liturgy - and I don’t see the point of it. Maybe as I read through the rest of the posts someone will explain to me why Latin is ‘better’ than English.
Furthermore, I am not ignorant of Latin - I just don’t think God really cares if we speak Latin or not - especially if we’re thinking in English anyway and have to translate " In Nomine Pater, et Filius, et Sanctus Spiritus" into “In the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit”.
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Joe, I am 43 and I absolutely love the Latin - enough so, that I am compelled to learn it so that I can read it and understand it thoroughly (and will follow through with that goal).

I have an uncle who is in his 70’s, who is very, very pious, devout, and traditional in his preference and he too, does not care for Latin. It does nothing for him and does not move him the way that it moves me. He prefers the vernacular. It would be judgmental to say that his lack of love for Latin some how affects his level of piety or humlity, so I think we all need to be careful here.

I don’t know that age has anything to do with it, but my perception is that more people who were never exposed to it, are flexible to it and intrigued by it (maybe in part, because it is different). With those who grew up with it, they either were nostalgic for it and loved it, or absolutely hated it. My sister hates it and she is 55, having started her life out with it.

You may fall into the pre-V2 or post-V2 era in terms of when you were raised in the Church. I’d be interested, just out of curiousity to know in which category you fall (sorry if you mentioned it earlier - I don’t have time to pour through all the posts right now).

I must say based on my experience that things like piety can’t depend on whether one prefers Latin or the Vernacular. We have to be careful here. There could be some reasons why God inspires some of us to learn Latin or to enjoy it, while others do not.

One thing we cannot deny, is that the Church has never called for complete elimination of Latin, and she has asked us to learn some of the basics in Latin. Whether we like Latin or not, it is part of our heritage, and one that Holy Mother Church wants to retain, by all indication. It’s not the end of the world to learn a few of the common responses and prayers in Latin. If, as a child, my mother asks me to do a particular chore, it is respectful to do so, without complaining. In the same manner, those who hate Latin, may need to do as mother is asking, out of respect for her. It may be in this context that “Ace” suggested humility. I don’t think you’ll see a time in the Church when the vernacular is not available in the broadest terms. However, what people are seeking is that more Latin be made available to those wanting it. Look at my parish - only one weekend Mass out of 4 is in Latin. That is not much and yet it makes those happy, who wish to partake in the Latin liturgy.

One reason Pope Benedict gave for this is he recalled how, in years past, when there were large international gatherings, where dozens of languages were present in the people, when they all prayed the Our Father, there was no language barrier. When you have a translation on a facing page, line for line, in time the understanding comes. But some use those pages indefinitely just to remind them what they are saying.

Aside from that, to me, it is a beautiful language and I like the sound of it (when it is not Americanized a-la “Domeenay Yayzooo Kwreeeestoooo” instead of proper “Domeeneh Yehzoo Kdreestoo”). In the proper manner, with European pronunciation, it is a gorgeous language to my ears.

And, I know when I pray in Latin, the words are identical to those used by many Catholics who came centuries before us, especially the saints.

Those are just some of the reasons I like Latin.
 
Anna Elizabeth:
Dear Joe, Please do yourself and everyone else a favor by reading (yes, actually reading), the Constitution on the Liturgy (Sacrosanctum Concilium). Incidentally, the priests most inclined toward “solid” homilies on such subjects as abortion are also the ones most open to following the dictates of the Council.

Also: Do watch your paraphrasing. Your last statement sets my teeth on edge.

:tsktsk:

Anna
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I have witnessed this pattern as well. The most orthodox of priests who leave no subject untouched are the very ones I see willing to offer Latin.
 
Joe Gloor:
I prefer to be more charitible to the Bishops, that they regarded attending Mass on a Monday as an undue burden upon the ‘work-oriented’ populace of the U.S. Knowing that many would sin by not attending, they relieved us of that burden by changing the day being celebrated up one day on the calendar.
Holy Days are not ‘everything.’
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Maybe they can eliminate the undue burden of making us go to Sunday Mass as well, since most Catholics create grave sin by not going (statistically fewer don’t go weekly than go). Afterall, a precept of the Church - to go each Sunday, can certainly be changed by Holy Mother Church, right?

The bishops should be challenging us to unbusy ourselves to spend some time with the Creator who gave us the TV we can’t get away from, the long work hours required to pay the bills for a house that is so much bigger than the ones our parents raised us in (and all the toys that go with it), the children that we wish to adore at some activity to forego Mass for, the very bed we sleep in and the roof over our head. I mean, it’s only God that we are called to worship on Sundays and Holy Days.

He gives us each and every breath we take in. How little we are asked to give back in the form of worship considering all that he gives us.

I find your commentary very sad, but all too common.

The Mass is a Sacrifice, not where we gather to celebrate each other. It’s only fitting that we should make sacrifices to be there - to get up when we want to sleep, to turn down an evening of overtime to get to a rare Holy Day Mass (and to even sacrifice buying things that would drive us to have to work that overtime to the exlusion of worship), to miss the first half of a football game on TV, or to go to a later movie, or head to the St. Mall of America later.

In fact, now that I think of it, for some, it is even a sacrifice to learn some prayers in Latin. What an opportunity to offer something up to God, and with a smile on one’s face.
 
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palmas85:
As far as they I am speaking of the majority of the people that I see at Mass.
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You should worry about yourself instead of everybody else.
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palmas85:
It would be very interesting to see what all the Traditional Mass haters do if the Holy Father did mandate some form of return to that style of mass, very interesting indeed.
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Is this a club at your Church?
 
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