Lazarus and the Rich Man

[Chaldean_Rite]

Why do you see all being in heaven and sharing the glory differently. I was always told when you get to heaven we all share the same Glory. The Glory of Christ. Now what you are saying there is a different glory in heaven other than Christ. I sure do not know where you are comming from thats for sure.

Again to say that when we get to heaven to be with the angels and Saints and share in that glory is anti catholic I would sure love to see how.

Where does it say that we all do not share in the same glory in heaven. I would love to see the scripture. Could you show me?

The Catechism of the Council of Trent:

“For in my Father’s house, says our Lord, there are many mansions, in which shall be distributed rewards of greater and of less value according to each one’s deserts. He who soweth sparingly, shall also reap sparingly: and he who soweth in blessings, shall also reap blessings.” - Catechism of Trent, Article XII

 

[rinnie]

Goodness. Buddy, I’m sorry to say it, but what you are saying is anti-Catholic. I only asked this question to see if you would give that response, which unfortuently you did. You got a lot to learn about the the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Saints, what glory is, and much more.

Again what other Glory in heaven is there besides the Glory of Jesus Christ? And what other glory again is there to share but the glory of Jesus Christ?

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

Why do you see all being in heaven and sharing the glory differently. I was always told when you get to heaven we all share the same Glory. The Glory of Christ. Now what you are saying there is a different glory in heaven other than Christ. I sure do not know where you are comming from thats for sure.

Again to say that when we get to heaven to be with the angels and Saints and share in that glory is anti catholic I would sure love to see how.

Where does it say that we all do not share in the same glory in heaven. I would love to see the scripture. Could you show me?

2 Cor 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil.

This one passage destroy pretty much you have suggested. The evil ones who are condemned will be given recompense for their actions, and likewise the holy ones. This is not what you suggest, a communist Heaven and Hell.

 

[rinnie]

The Catechism of the Council of Trent:

“For in my Father’s house, says our Lord, there are many mansions, in which shall be distributed rewards of greater and of less value according to each one’s deserts. He who soweth sparingly, shall also reap sparingly: and he who soweth in blessings, shall also reap blessings.” - Catechism of Trent, Article XII

What does your reward in heaven have to do with sharing Gods Glory? I am still lost?

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

Again what other Glory in heaven is there besides the Glory of Jesus Christ? And what other glory again is there to share but the glory of Jesus Christ?

“No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love Him” (1 Corinthians 2:9).

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

What does your reward in heaven have to do with sharing Gods Glory? I am still lost?

Just as God does not love everyone equally, He does not share His glory equally.

 

[juliamajor]

Gee,guys it’s a PARABLE!! The whole point of a parable is to make you think and not have set answer-and when you think you’ve got the right answer-you’re probably wrong! Don’t sweat over finding the correct interpretation- because there isn’t one.

 

[rinnie]

Just as God does not love everyone equally, He does not share His glory equally.

Oh for goodness sake.

Please read Gal 2:6 God shows no partiality. He loves us all the same. I have no idea what you are talking about.

Just because we are all given our reward in heaven according to our life on earth. Has nothing to do with Gods love for us.

Is this the teachings of your Church? That We all do not share in the Gods Grace in heaven. And God has favorites? What Church do you go to, May I ask?

 

[Mickey]

Whatever happens in purgatory, which is a mystery, must eventually free us from the bonds of sin, no matter how grave or trivial. If you agree that you can die with sins on your soul and still go to Heaven, how can a sin go unrepented yet that person enter Heaven? Anyhow, this is probably off topic. I imagine St. John here is talking about grave sin.

It says repentance–not forgiveness. Did you misread it? Your catechism says the same thing. The rich man cannot repent–it is too late for him. And he is not in the RC understanding of “purgatory”.

 

[rinnie]

It says repentance–not forgiveness. Did you misread it? Your catechism says the same thing. The rich man cannot repent–it is too late for him. And he is not in the RC understanding of “purgatory”.

Tell me Mickey you seem to be good at throwing the stones, but not getting no hits. So go back to all of the Scripture I quoted and define it for us. Proverbs 15:27 etc. Go back and you will find them, Cant wait to hear you answer for them.

 

[rinnie]

It says repentance–not forgiveness. Did you misread it? Your catechism says the same thing. The rich man cannot repent–it is too late for him. And he is not in the RC understanding of “purgatory”.

Also Mickey why then does it say he is in the Bosom of Abraham. What is the bosom of Abraham Mickey? And where is it Mickey? You never answer my questions, Ever.

 

[steve_b]

Dear brother Steve,

IIRC, Latin Catholic doctrine states one does not even need to confess venial sin to a priest.

True.

Marduk:

It’s consequence is only temporal punishment, not eternal punishment,

True again, but as you know, until purged, even venial sin prevents us from entering heaven

Marduk:

and Purgatory by definition remits temporal punishment. According to the Latin doctrine,

True again

Marduk:

Purgatory “automatically” removes any evil inclination.in the soul. Further, the doctrine states that the soul in Purgatory cannot to anything for itself. So it could not possibly repent in Purgatory.

Blessings,
Marduk

Repent and being sorry, to me are synonymous.

Allow me to expand on what you’ve said

Our Memory Intellect, and Will follow us into eternity. God doesn’t give them to us here and work with us here through these powers He gave us, only to take them away in eternity.

They must be purified and reordered before entering heaven but we still have them… After the reorder, they will be perfect and the reorder is permanent… no chance of disorder ever again. And yes it is done to us, we don’t do it ourselves, but we fully participate in the process. We know exactly what’s going on and why.

While venial sin does NOT have to be confessed to a priest, one still needs to be truly sorry for having offended God… Correct?

Either this sorrow for even these minor sins happens on this side of eternity or on the other side. But being sorry goes hand in hand with forgiveness and perfection, … true?

perfectly reordering our memory perfectly reordering our intellect and perfectly understanding how/why we offended God, and the necessity of our willingness to conform our will perfectly to the will of God is what purgatory does ALSO. Without these powers of the soul being fully operational, one couldn’t experience or learn ANYTHING from the process… and after it was over, the soul couldn’t experience the immense love God bathes us in.

Purgatory doesn’t take away our ability to be sorry for our sin, it perfects it. Purgatory doesn’t take away memory, intellect and will, it perfects them…

 

[rinnie]

No, its not rinnie. Your understanding of purgatory is flawed. As St. Thomas teaches, Hell is about torment, where Purgatory is about cleansing.

Where in the bible does it state that purgatory is not being in some kind of torment. The rich man didn’t look real happy to me.

 

[rinnie]

Goodness. Buddy, I’m sorry to say it, but what you are saying is anti-Catholic. I only asked this question to see if you would give that response, which unfortuently you did. You got a lot to learn about the the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Saints, what glory is, and much more.

You sure said some beautiful thing’s about me:wave: and then when I tried to defend myself you took off. I sure hope you will come back and show me how my belief that we all share in the Glory of CHrist is anti-Catholic.

And Mickey I am still waiting for you to show me what those scriptures mean. I answer you, but you must have me on the ignore list. You did warn me if we disagree I am on the list. Guess I made it!

 

[jmcrae]

Again why would he be sorry he was in hell. I thought being sorry was to repent.

No; to repent and to be sorry are two different things. To be sorry is to experience an emotion of sorrow. To repent is to actually change your behaviour.

Simple example: a police officer stops a motorist who is going the wrong way down a one-way street. The motorist has two options; he can argue with the police officer and say, But Officer, I was only going one way!" (he is unrepentant; he does not change direction) or, he can say, “Oh, I am sorry, Officer,” and then he turns his car around and starts to go in the right direction (he is repentant - he changes direction).

But sorrow is only the first step - it must be followed by repentance, or else it cannot be forgiven. If the motorist says, “Oh, I am very sorry, Officer,” but then keeps travelling in the same direction, the officer will be required to write him a ticket for going the wrong way on a one way street - his sorrow is not enough to gain him forgiveness.

I thought when you repent you are admitting you were wrong, and are asking forgiveness for your sins. I thought that if you are truely sorry for a sin you can be forgiven.

Not if you don’t intend to repent - turn around and change your ways.

I was always taught the only way you could not be forgiven for a sin is to truely not be sorry. I always thought to feel remorse was a grace from God, to keep us on the right track.

Yes, this is very true, since the feeling of remorse tells us that something needs to be changed. But it is when we change that we are forgiven. Not just when we feel remorse.

So you are saying that when evil people hurt others they really do feel remorse? But since they are evil they keep doing it anyway, but they are sorry?

I am sure there are situations where people do what they know is wrong, and feel sorry for doing it - but do you think they are forgiven, simply because they feel sorry for what they are continuing to do?

And where did I ever say you can get away with any sin without doing penance. Suffering for your sins is what penance is. Which is what We call Purgatory, you are sorry for your sin, and now you are getting cleansed from that sin. How long you will be punished for that sin, is up to God. That is why we call Purgatory a temportal punishment. God controls Purgatory. The devil controls hell.

Actually, we are told in Psalm 139 that God is also in control of Hell - that God knows us and loves us, even if we are in the seventh circle of Hell.

 

[jmcrae]

It says repentance–not forgiveness. Did you misread it? Your catechism says the same thing. The rich man cannot repent–it is too late for him. And he is not in the RC understanding of “purgatory”.

Correct, on all counts. An A+ for Mickey!

 

[jmcrae]

Also Mickey why then does it say he is in the Bosom of Abraham. What is the bosom of Abraham Mickey? And where is it Mickey? You never answer my questions, Ever.

It is a third state, like the state of Purgatory. But it is not actually Purgatory. It is something else.

 

[rinnie]

It is a third state, like the state of Purgatory. But it is not actually Purgatory. It is something else.

Its something else. You are saying that it is not purgatory it is a third state but that third state could not possibly be purgatory. Prove this point for me. Thanks

 

[davidv]

Its something else. You are saying that it is not purgatory it is a third state but that third state could not possibly be purgatory. Prove this point for me. Thanks

Have your read the “Bosom of Abraham” article in the Catholic Encyclopedia?

My reading of it says that the “bosom of Abrahan” is not what the church currently teaches as “purgatory” and that the place of the rich man is hell.

What do you think?

 

[jmcrae]

Its something else. You are saying that it is not purgatory it is a third state but that third state could not possibly be purgatory. Prove this point for me. Thanks

Jesus is speaking of the time before His resurrection, in this parable, as we see at the end where He says, “but they would not believe, even if someone were to rise from the dead.” So, this parable is taking place before the Resurrection.

At the time of the Resurrection, Jesus unlocked the gates of Heaven and it became possible for human beings to enter in there.

At this time, Purgatory also came into existence, so that those human beings who were going to Heaven could be cleansed of the temporal consequences of their venial sins. But prior to this, there was no need of Purgatory, because no human beings were going to Heaven, yet.

Lazarus is obviously not in Heaven, because he does not see God. He is in the place where Abraham was prior to the Resurrection, which we see in I Peter 3, it was the Limbo of the Fathers, where the Old Testament Saints were waiting for Jesus to come.

Jesus came to them during the 40 hours from when He died on the Cross, until He was raised from the dead, as we see in I Peter 3. This was after the period of time that is indicated in the parable itself, which is a time when Abraham and the other Old Testament Saints were still waiting for Jesus to come to them, before they could yet see God.