Lazarus and the Rich Man

[jmcrae]

That is not the teachings of the church. Hell is total separation from God. Also scripture says people in hell will not see the righteousl both scripture.

Show the verses.

I never said Abraham or lazarus had mercy on him. I said God did.

When and how? It seems to me that at the end of the parable, the rich man is still in his torments. None of his requests were answered.

Show where God has mercy on him, in this parable.

 

[davidv]

To me repentance is 3 or 4. .

OK
Lets put the definitions of penance and repentance together and see if they mean the same thing. This is “penance”:

1. a canonical punishment inflicted according to the earlier discipline of the Church; (4) a work of satisfaction enjoined upon the recipient of the sacrament

And from dictionary.com here is “repent”

re⋅pentcache.lexico.com/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif

**–verb (used without object) 1. to feel sorry, self-reproachful, or contrite for past conduct; regret or be conscience-stricken about a past action, attitude, etc. (often fol. by of): *He repented after his thoughtless act. *2. to feel such sorrow for sin or fault as to be disposed to change one’s life for the better; be penitent.–verb (used with object) **3. to remember or regard with self-reproach or contrition: *to repent one’s injustice to another. *4. to feel sorry for; regret: *to repent an imprudent act. *

#2 is in my estimation the closest to the Church’s definition of repent. Do you agree?

Based on these definitions please show me how “penance” and “repentance” mean the same thing.

 

[davidv]

I totally agree, that is again why I made it clear to repent is not enough, you have to do repentance. Hope we can be on the same page now. Thanks David.

I am afraid we are not on the same page. Not with repect to the terminology nor with repect to how the parable relates to purgatory. A famous quote is in order

What we’ve got here is failure to communicate…
from Cool Hand Luke

and, I am at a loss on how to change that.

 

[rinnie]

OK
Lets put the definitions of penance and repentance together and see if they mean the same thing. This is “penance”:
And from dictionary.com here is “repent”

#2 is in my estimation the closest to the Church’s definition of repent. Do you agree?

Based on these definitions please show me how “penance” and “repentance” mean the same thing.

Okay not go to the dictionary and look up penance. You will be on the same bus with me. I used it the dict. because people who do not understand as well as us will.

 

[rinnie]

Show the verses.

When and how? It seems to me that at the end of the parable, the rich man is still in his torments. None of his requests were answered.

Show where God has mercy on him, in this parable.

Okay go through the posts. you will see what I quoted from the ccc it will show first question.

2nd question I will get to you tommorow. gotta go!

God Bless you all!

 

[rinnie]

I am afraid we are not on the same page. Not with repect to the terminology nor with repect to how the parable relates to purgatory. A famous quote is in order
and, I am at a loss on how to change that.

And we probally always will. and sometime it comes down to we have to agree to disagree. But I will try one more time.

When I was probally 8 or so third grade I believe I made my first Holy Communion. Now before we went we had to go to confession. So we were told we had to examine our conscience and think about our sins. Then we had to confess our sins.

Not to repent is to admit you sinned, and ask Father for forgiveness, and be truely sorry for that sin. When you know that you sin is truely repented is when you quit doing that sin.

Now to repent that sin and be sorry for that sin is one thing. But how can you go confess that sin repent and sin not more. All in one setting. You never had time.

That is why we have penance which is to show REPENTANCE for that sin. Repentance is what is penance. Father forgives you for that sin but now there is a catch, You must SHOW outward signs that you are really sorry and prove it. That is by showing repentance and not repeating that sin. First Father gives you prayers these prayers are to give you Grace to help you in your repentance progress which is to not repeat that sin,

Now it is impossible to repent and sin no more in one setting. Because you need time to show that you sinned no more. Sure you mean what you say, but the proof is in the pudding lets say.

That is why Catholics get the bum deal, I have heard it all my life, you Catholic go out and sin all you want and then go to confession and its all good again.

Thats why I say I am sorry it does not work that way. I wish it did, but it does not. You are forgiven for that sin, Yes at that moment. But theres one catch, You cannot repeat it, to keep that sin forgiven. IT like the teacher that gave you an A on the first day of school. You think oh great I got an A and did not have to do anything to earn it. But then you hear now you have to Keep that A. Then its like oh, this is not as easy as it looks.

Thats the big picture is you are going to go out and sin, and then go ask Father for forgiveness and then go out do the same thing over and over. Whats up with that. And yes if you keep saying you are sorry, and I am sure you really are, but to repent is not enough. Just like that A is harder to keep then it was to get.

That is why it is easier to repent and ask for forgiveness for a sin, then it is to keep repenting and by repenting (which is being in repentance) avoiding that sin and not repeating it is two very different things.

I have no more words, or better way of explaining it to you. That is what the Nuns and Priests have taught me all my life. If I have misled the Faith I beg for forgiveness, but it was not that in my heart I am trying or have tried to do that.

Bottom line you must repent, and then keep repenting until you have finished with that repentance. And when you have a sin that is fully repented then you have quit doing that sin, and you will never repeat it, That is when you know that you have done full repentance.

 

[rinnie]

Okay go through the posts. you will see what I quoted from the ccc it will show first question.

2nd question I will get to you tommorow. gotta go!

God Bless you all!

Where you can see that his was given Mercy is, just like the repentance above he is in the process of doing his repentance.

He is repenting his sin, he is doing his penance. Purgatory is a temporal suffering, no suffering is ever easy or fun. But how we know that he is getting in, (soon who knows) but he’s getting in, because he is sorry, and he is doing his penance. And he is more worried about his brothers not having to go through what he is going through then worring about himself.

A If he was in hell you will not see the righteous. He saw A and L.

b, In hell there is no mercy. He felt mercy, He said if Lazaras can’t help me, help my brothers. Mercy is a grace from God, and anyone in hell could care less about their brothers

C. anyone knows in hell there is no mercy, and his brothers cannot help him. I someone is hell they turned completely away from God, are not sorry for what they did, and could care less about anyone else.

D he is in the netherworld. a place of death. If you look up the netherworld its underworld which is hades. or sheol. All the same place. It was the place where the righteous were either waiting or being purified after death.

e If he was in hell he would not again see A&L and he would not be able to talk to them. He did and he could see them. So it shows they were in the same place. Different levels but If you can see me and I can see you we are in the same place.

I have one more important thing be right back.

 

[rinnie]

THe most important Gehenna. That is hell, that is the most horrible torments. Gehenna is hell.

Not the underworld, sheol or hades.

If you went to gehenna you did not make it to hades, or sheol you were in hell and you would not see or have Mercy on anyone.

That is the best I can show you.

Please pray for anyone that is dead. You have no idea what you prayer can do for them. One set of Rosarys can take them out of purgatory and send them to God.

No matter how good you feel they were, they like us all have sins. Pray they are in heaven, but pray them out of purgatory just to be on the safe side. Never be too sure.

People make fun of RC because we pray for the dead. They have no idea what prayers for the lost souls in purgatory can do. Our prayers are so powerful and can release many many people. And save them much suffering. One prayer right now could be all one soul could need.

And Mickey go ahead and laugh and make fun of me. I am sure you will and do. I do not care. I believe in this as much as I believe in My Jesus Christ.

 

[jmcrae]

That is why we have penance which is to show REPENTANCE for that sin. Repentance is what is penance. Father forgives you for that sin but now there is a catch, You must SHOW outward signs that you are really sorry and prove it. That is by showing repentance and not repeating that sin. First Father gives you prayers these prayers are to give you Grace to help you in your repentance progress which is to not repeat that sin,

You cannot base your adult faith on an eight-year-old’s misunderstanding of repentance.

Again, to repent is to stop (or mean to stop) doing the sinful action, whatever it may be - to turn away, and change direction. (Quit beating up your little brother; quit spreading lies about the neighbor girl, quit sneaking cookies before supper, etc.)

Penance is the prayers, the good deeds, or whatever that the priest gives you to do, or on Fridays, the thing that you give yourself to do, in order to become detached from material things and live more in the way of Christ. Penance is associated with repentance in that it brings us closer to God, but they are still two different things.

 

[rinnie]

You cannot base your adult faith on an eight-year-old’s misunderstanding of repentance.

Again, to repent is to stop (or mean to stop) doing the sinful action, whatever it may be - to turn away, and change direction. (Quit beating up your little brother; quit spreading lies about the neighbor girl, quit sneaking cookies before supper, etc.)

Penance is the prayers, the good deeds, or whatever that the priest gives you to do, or on Fridays, the thing that you give yourself to do, in order to become detached from material things and live more in the way of Christ. Penance is associated with repentance in that it brings us closer to God, but they are still two different things.

Okay then you know more than me and the Catholic school I went to for 12 years. So tell me what is repentance. How do you separate penance with repentance?

 

[jmcrae]

Okay then you know more than me and the Catholic school I went to for 12 years.

If you got straight A’s in Religion, then maybe - but I actually doubt that your Catholic school intended to teach you the stuff that you are presenting here.

So tell me what is repentance. How do you separate penance with repentance?

Repentance is the turning away and getting going in the right direction.

You are repenting when you stop committing a certain sin, and replace it with a virtue. For example, if you had been in the habit of stealing a cookie before dinner in the evening, you would stop doing that, and replace it with doing something nice for your mother, instead. This would be an on-going action, and you would start doing it even before you go to Confession.

Penance is a one-time action that is chosen either by you (on Fridays or during Lent) or the priest (in the Sacrament of Reconciliation), as a kind of token of reparation for sins.

Common penances include: give money to the poor, pray an Our Father, Hail Mary, and Glory Be (or bunches of them), pray the Litany of the Sacred Heart, pray the Penitential Psalms (ie: Psalm 22), pray the Sorrowful Mysteries of the Rosary, abstain from eating meat all day, fast all day, give up television for a period of time, give up chocolate for a period of time, and so on.

 

[rinnie]

If you got straight A’s in Religion, then maybe - but I actually doubt that your Catholic school intended to teach you the stuff that you are presenting here.

Repentance is the turning away and getting going in the right direction.

You are repenting when you stop committing a certain sin, and replace it with a virtue. For example, if you had been in the habit of stealing a cookie before dinner in the evening, you would stop doing that, and replace it with doing something nice for your mother, instead. This would be an on-going action, and you would start doing it even before you go to Confession.

Penance is a one-time action that is chosen either by you (on Fridays or during Lent) or the priest (in the Sacrament of Reconciliation), as a kind of token of reparation for sins.

Common penances include: give money to the poor, pray an Our Father, Hail Mary, and Glory Be (or bunches of them), pray the Litany of the Sacred Heart, pray the Penitential Psalms (ie: Psalm 22), pray the Sorrowful Mysteries of the Rosary, abstain from eating meat all day, fast all day, give up television for a period of time, give up chocolate for a period of time, and so on.

Okay then why did I learn in the Catholic school that you could say that Judas did repent. He was sorry for what he did. He even tried to return the money. But to be sorry Sister said was not enough. He had not repented his sin, he was a coward and killed himself. (results unrepented sin)

Peter on the other hand did also repent. But then he repented his sin. He was sorry, and then he repented his sin here on earth. He did his repentance, He was not just sorry, he never betrayed Jesus again, which showed he did indeed show his repentance. Judas on the other side did repent. was sorry, but never repented his sin.

So again maybe you should have taught us. Maybe you have a better understanding of our faith then Sister.

 

[jmcrae]

Okay then why did I learn in the Catholic school that you could say that Judas did repent.

Are you serious??!! No, Judas did not repent. He died in his sins. He is most likely in Hell.

He was sorry for what he did. He even tried to return the money. But to be sorry Sister said was not enough. He had not repented his sin, he was a coward and killed himself. (results unrepented sin)

This is very confusing. Sister told you that Judas did not repent. This is correct; he did not. Where are you getting in your first sentence that Judas did repent from?

Peter on the other hand did also repent. But then he repented his sin.

What does this even mean? He repented, but then he repented?

He was sorry, and then he repented his sin here on earth. He did his repentance, He was not just sorry, he never betrayed Jesus again, which showed he did indeed show his repentance.

Yes, never doing it again is what the word “repentance” means.

Judas on the other side did repent. was sorry, but never repented his sin.

And again, I have no idea what you are trying to say, here. Either he repented, or he did not repent. He cannot be in both states at the same time.

So again maybe you should have taught us. Maybe you have a better understanding of our faith then Sister.

It sounds to me like Sister had a good understanding of what she was teaching. But your way of conveying it is very confusing.

 

[rinnie]

Are you serious??!! No, Judas did not repent. He died in his sins. He is most likely in Hell.

This is very confusing. Sister told you that Judas did not repent. This is correct; he did not. Where are you getting in your first sentence that Judas did repent from?

What does this even mean? He repented, but then he repented?

Yes, never doing it again is what the word “repentance” means.

And again, I have no idea what you are trying to say, here. Either he repented, or he did not repent. He cannot be in both states at the same time.

It sounds to me like Sister had a good understanding of what she was teaching. But your way of conveying it is very confusing./QUOT

How can you agree with me that repentance is never doing it again. And then turn around and say to repent is the same as repentance.

Again are you saying that Judas did not regret what he did, Since you know more than I why did he give back the money then?

This is getting too deep, and I am grounded from the computer till Monday.

Its Saturday, gotta go get the food, drinks and get ready for the second biggest party of the year. STEEELERS ARE HEADING FOR THE SUPER BOWL. AND MY HUSBAND SAID I CAN NOT TALK RELIGION TILL MONDAY.

SO HUBBY TIME, PARY TIME, STEELER TIME. GOD BLESS SEE YOU MONDAY!

GO STEELERS!

 

[jmcrae]

How can you agree with me that repentance is never doing it again. And then turn around and say to repent is the same as repentance.

Yes, to repent means the same thing as to repent. Repentance, repenting, to repent, he repented, they are repenting, he is repentant. It is the same word, with a different ending to show the different declensions.

The same word means the same thing, every time you use it. That’s why it’s “language” and not just a bunch of grunting - because the same word always means the same thing, every time you use it.

 

[rinnie]

I cannot seem to get you to see the difference so maybe the bible can.

Matthew 3:2 Repent calls for a change of heard and turning ones life from rebellion to obedience toward God.

Rependance Luke 24; 46-47
The Messiah would suffer and rise from the dead and rise from the 3rd day that REPENDANCE for the forgiveness of sins.

Rependance is to SUFFER.

Acts 26:19-21 (sums it up for me) Quote: I preached the need to repent AND turn to GOD and to DO WORKS giving EVIDENCE of REPENDANCE. Unquote

If that does not show the difference nothing will.

John says there can be no true conversion or contrition where mortifying flesh and fruits do no follow.

That is what I was taught. I am sorry that you disagree with it.

Confession is in two acts. THe first is my work and act to repent. TO repent is a Grace from God. It is because of God that I have the conscience to even want to repent or be sorry. Which is what the rich man is doing, he is sorry for what he has done. That being sorry in itself is a grace from God, that is why God is giving him the chance to do rependance.

The second part of confession is when Gods works, he absolves me of my sins, now I MUST WORK ON THE OUTSIDE that is call rependance.

1 cor 3: 13-17 The work of each will come to light, for the day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire and the fire itself will test the quality of each ones work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation that person will receive a wage. But if someones work is burned up that one will suffer loss, the person will be saved, but only as through fire.

That is what was going on with the rich man. He was being saved through the fire because his words were not all good, but he did his rependance through the burning of those works and God saved his soul.

To die in mortal sin again is to deny God, if you deny God you would not repent. Just like the two thiefs on the cross one did repent one did not. The thief that did repent accepted Jesus Chirst. That is why we have until the last minute of our life to accept Jesus Christ. He wants no one to die in everlasting hell. But you must not only repent, you must sufffer for the sin you have done that is called rependance. That is why we have confession, it is better to do our rependance here in this world then to do it it the next.

That is why there is a difference between mortal sin and venial sin.

That is what Sister taught me, and I do understand what I was taught. I have gone to a Catholic School and took Religion classes every single day. I know what I was taught. If you say that to repent and do rependance is the same time, then read the bible, The work of God makes its quite clear.

You must not just repent, you must repent AND SIN NO MORE. The AND SIN NO MORE is doing the work on the outside which is called rependance.

 

[davidv]

I cannot seem to get you to see the difference so maybe the bible can.

Matthew 3:2 Repent calls for a change of heard and turning ones life from rebellion to obedience toward God.

Rependance Luke 24; 46-47
The Messiah would suffer and rise from the dead and rise from the 3rd day that REPENDANCE for the forgiveness of sins.

Rependance is to SUFFER.

Acts 26:19-21 (sums it up for me) Quote: I preached the need to repent AND turn to GOD and to DO WORKS giving EVIDENCE of REPENDANCE. Unquote

If that does not show the difference nothing will.

John says there can be no true conversion or contrition where mortifying flesh and fruits do no follow.

That is what I was taught. I am sorry that you disagree with it.

Confession is in two acts. THe first is my work and act to repent. TO repent is a Grace from God. It is because of God that I have the conscience to even want to repent or be sorry. Which is what the rich man is doing, he is sorry for what he has done. That being sorry in itself is a grace from God, that is why God is giving him the chance to do rependance.

The second part of confession is when Gods works, he absolves me of my sins, now I MUST WORK ON THE OUTSIDE that is call rependance.

1 cor 3: 13-17 The work of each will come to light, for the day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire and the fire itself will test the quality of each ones work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation that person will receive a wage. But if someones work is burned up that one will suffer loss, the person will be saved, but only as through fire.

That is what was going on with the rich man. He was being saved through the fire because his words were not all good, but he did his rependance through the burning of those works and God saved his soul.

To die in mortal sin again is to deny God, if you deny God you would not repent. Just like the two thiefs on the cross one did repent one did not. The thief that did repent accepted Jesus Chirst. That is why we have until the last minute of our life to accept Jesus Christ. He wants no one to die in everlasting hell. But you must not only repent, you must sufffer for the sin you have done that is called rependance. That is why we have confession, it is better to do our rependance here in this world then to do it it the next.

That is why there is a difference between mortal sin and venial sin.

That is what Sister taught me, and I do understand what I was taught. I have gone to a Catholic School and took Religion classes every single day. I know what I was taught. If you say that to repent and do rependance is the same time, then read the bible, The work of God makes its quite clear.

You must not just repent, you must repent AND SIN NO MORE. The AND SIN NO MORE is doing the work on the outside which is called rependance.

None of the verses you cite show the difference that you seem to believe exists between repent and repentance. Both words speak to the that same thing, a change of heart that leads to a change in behavior. Repent is a verb. Repentance is the noun form of repent.

 

[rinnie]

None of the verses you cite show the difference that you seem to believe exists between repent and repentance. Both words speak to the that same thing, a change of heart that leads to a change in behavior. Repent is a verb. Repentance is the noun form of repent.

Well I am sorry but there is a difference. To repent is what I have told you in the beginning is to regret and want to take back and be sorry for something you have done. It is a feeling of sorrow. To repent is to admit your sin and ask for forgiveness.

To do Penance is to do the very act, which is call repentance. Read the bible verse I quoted and then explain it to me then.

 

[rinnie]

Tell me David what is penance?

 

[davidv]

Tell me David what is penance?

The word penance can mean several things.

1. It is the Sacrament by which our sins are forgiven. When used this way it is usually capitalized.
2. It is an act of self sacrifice, such as fasting and almgiving.
3. It is the assignment given during the Sacrament of Penance (or Reconciliation) which is meant as “satisfaction” for the wrongs against our neighbor our sins may have produced.

When you have used this word , I have thought that you use it in the sense of definition 3.