Lazarus and the Rich Man

[jmcrae]

We just call the in between place purgatory from what I understand.

No, we don’t. We go to Purgatory after the Particular Judgement (we have been judged, by this time - we are no longer in the “in-between place”) if we have been judged righteous, and are going to go to Heaven.

People who are going to Hell do not enter into Purgatory; they just go straight to Hell.

 

[rinnie]

No, it had nothing to do with purification or cleansing. It was simply a place where the dead were. It is a somewhat depraved existence. P. Benedict speaks of it as a place where the LORD was not (according to the understanding of the Jews). On the contrary, purgatory is understood to be after the resurrection. The resurrection is a statement that God has power even over sheol, or the place of the dead. The RC doesn’t make any comparrison between Purgatory and Sheol. The RC speaks of it as the Limbo of the Fathers, a holding place for those who died before Christ. Just like the concept of limbo of infants is not a place of purification neither is that of the fathers.

After his death Jesus went to release many of the souls held in the bosom of Abraham. since the creation of the world. This place of purgation was a place of waiting and cleansing. Entrance into heaven could not take place until Jesus. But I was told that the rich man and Abraham and Lazarus was in the place. Again cleansing and waiting.

 

[jimmy]

After his death Jesus went to release many of the souls held in the bosom of Abraham. since the creation of the world. This place of purgation was a place of waiting and cleansing. Entrance into heaven could not take place until Jesus. But I was told that the rich man and Abraham and Lazarus was in the place. Again cleansing and waiting.

Wrong, Jesus did not go to purgatory. Why would He go to purgatory to preach to the people who were there considering that the concept of purgatory says that those who are in purgatory end up in heaven? No, it was simply a holding place. Purgation has nothing to do with it.

Atleast we can agree that the steelers will win the superbowl.:yup:

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

But I was told that the rich man and Abraham and Lazarus was in the place.

sorry, you were told wrong. The rich man, nameless man is not a model of charity, temperance, love or anything. why are you cannozing him?

 

[rinnie]

sorry, you were told wrong. The rich man, nameless man is not a model of charity, temperance, love or anything. why are you cannozing him?

What are you talking about. Where and how could I ever do that.

 

[jmcrae]

What are you talking about. Where and how could I ever do that.

He is referring to your constant attempts to say that the rich man went to Heaven (thus, “canonizing” him, since the only people we know are in Heaven are the canonized Saints).

 

[rinnie]

He is referring to your constant attempts to say that the rich man went to Heaven (thus, “canonizing” him, since the only people we know are in Heaven are the canonized Saints).

I don’t believe I ever said he went to heaven. I just said I did not believe he was in hell, so could be prayed into heaven.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

I don’t believe I ever said he went to heaven. I just said I did not believe he was in hell, so could be prayed into heaven.

lol, its binary my friend. either heaven or hell. If he’s not in Hell then me would be in…

 

[rinnie]

Wrong, Jesus did not go to purgatory. Why would He go to purgatory to preach to the people who were there considering that the concept of purgatory says that those who are in purgatory end up in heaven? No, it was simply a holding place. Purgation has nothing to do with it.

Atleast we can agree that the steelers will win the superbowl.:yup:

I agree it was called Hades then, Could you show me where I could find that info on them being different places from today though. I would like to read up on it.

Oh and Football what a game huh. What a interception huh. He is alway praying, If you watch him you will see he is always blessing himself. I wasn’t aloud on pc. Had to have family time. But when he intercepted the ball I said that is intercession. God used him to answer all of our prayers. Huh Huh.

Hope we have a better game in 2 weeks. We killed one raven now we have to go after the redbird the cardinal!

 

[jmcrae]

I don’t believe I ever said he went to heaven. I just said I did not believe he was in hell, so could be prayed into heaven.

You were saying that he was in Purgatory.

Purgatory is on the way to Heaven. People who are going to Hell cannot ever end up in Purgatory. You can’t get to Purgatory until after you have been judged to be righteous.

 

[rinnie]

You were saying that he was in Purgatory.

Purgatory is on the way to Heaven. People who are going to Hell cannot ever end up in Purgatory. You can’t get to Purgatory until after you have been judged to be righteous.

yes hades, hades is tempory abode for the dead. Which is what I understand purgatory to be.

 

[jimmy]

I agree it was called Hades then, Could you show me where I could find that info on them being different places from today though. I would like to read up on it.

Oh and Football what a game huh. What a interception huh. He is alway praying, If you watch him you will see he is always blessing himself. I wasn’t aloud on pc. Had to have family time. But when he intercepted the ball I said that is intercession. God used him to answer all of our prayers. Huh Huh.

Hope we have a better game in 2 weeks. We killed one raven now we have to go after the redbird the cardinal!

I think Pope Benedict discusses it a little in his book on Eschatology. I can’t think of any sources that are specifically about this issue.

Polamalu is awesome. He is always a threat; the play where it was 4th and 1 for Baltimore and he jumped over the linemen to get the quarterback was great. I noticed him crossing himself as well. It was a great game and I am looking forward to them beating up on the Cardinals.

 

[rinnie]

I think Pope Benedict discusses it a little in his book on Eschatology. I can’t think of any sources that are specifically about this issue.

Polamalu is awesome. He is always a threat; the play where it was 4th and 1 for Baltimore and he jumped over the linemen to get the quarterback was great. I noticed him crossing himself as well. It was a great game and I am looking forward to them beating up on the Cardinals.

Thanks Jimmy, I will try to get the book this week, its just so cold here, I live out in the country and our roads are still bad.

I also see your point that it could not be the purgatory we call purgatory today because yes, they have not been judged.

But what I guess I am saying it is not hell, and it is holding place for the dead, and according to the OT this place of purgation was a place of Waiting And Cleansing. And purgatory today is still a place of cleansing.

But I do agree that there is one difference, the purgatory of today I understand you are not going to hell. But you died with sins you need to be cleansed of. And the Hades of the OT did not mean you were in the final stage. But My point was in this whole thread is that hades was proof that there was a place that you could die with venial sin and still be purged just like purgatory is to us today.

Again I never said that he was getting in, I said we rely on the Mercy of God. And from what I was taught the only sin God would not forgive you for is to no believe. And if you refuse to believe in God then you will be in hell, and I was told hell is total separation from God. And that is mortal sin, to not accept God.

But thank you for at least talking to me about this instead of calling me an Anti-Catholic, I have been pretty much accused of it all. Just for trying to make a point. Which is that this story can indeed prove that there is another place other than Heaven and Hell. And we can be cleansed of venial sin.

 

[Mickey]

But the rich man never quit doing his sin. He never stopped ignoring Lazarus’ cries for help. He died in his sins. He never repented of them.

He felt sorry for himself because he went to Hell, but during his lifetime he never lifted even one finger to help Lazarus.

Bravo! I am giving the A+ back to you.

 

[Mickey]

The whole point of the parable is that being sorry after death is of no avail - we have to repent before we die.

 

[Mickey]

You cannot base your adult faith on an eight-year-old’s misunderstanding of repentance.

Good point.

Again, to repent is to stop (or mean to stop) doing the sinful action, whatever it may be - to turn away, and change direction.

Yes. Metanoia.

Penance is the prayers, the good deeds, or whatever that the priest gives you to do, or on Fridays, the thing that you give yourself to do, in order to become detached from material things and live more in the way of Christ. Penance is associated with repentance in that it brings us closer to God, but they are still two different things.

Correct.

 

[Mickey]

Yes, to repent means the same thing as to repent. Repentance, repenting, to repent, he repented, they are repenting, he is repentant. It is the same word, with a different ending to show the different declensions.

The same word means the same thing, every time you use it. That’s why it’s “language” and not just a bunch of grunting - because the same word always means the same thing, every time you use it.

 

[Mickey]

Polamalu is awesome.

He is Greek Orthodox!

 

[rinnie]

Boy Mickey, you are back. Full of laughs, energy, Now maybe you can define that scripture for me now.

And while you are at it explain this to me.

The Bosom of Abraham was a place and waiting of cleansing. Entrance could not take place until the Sacrificial Death of our Lord Jesus Christ had opened the gates of heaven.

What does it mean to redeem Mickey? Does it not mean to buy back. Did our Lord Jesus Christ not purchase for us the means of Eternal Salvation. Does our Lord Jesus not make that choice if we are going to heaven or hell? Does our Lord not have mercy on us at the moment of our death if we have sins that are unrepented. Guess not. Not according to the wisdom of you Mickey. So what you are saying Mickey is what you have always said we say we are sorry and that is that . No penance needed.

Well like I said Mickey I have never understood what a difference there ever was between the Roman Catholic until you. But much I will say that, very much.

I as a Roman Catholic believe in the teachings of the CHurch and I believe in Purgatory. I believe that there was indeed a place in between in the OT, the only difference is they had not been judged. But I believe that there is still a inbetween place.

But it was still a place of purgation and it has been from the beginning of time. It is in the OT and it is also carried through and still believed in the new,

Well Mickey go back and define the scripture. I am still waiting.

Oh I forgot was you answer to the scripture is I don’t know? Thats right. Thats why you will not defend yourself, you cannot.

Hey Mickey here is a new one. Answer this.

In 1 Cor 15:29-30 Paul mentions people being baptised on the behalf of the dead, so they can be freed for their sins. These people cannot be in heaven because they are still in sin. and not hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. Where are they Mickey.

Tell me this Mickey In 2 tim 1:16-18 Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him on that day. Of course there is no mercy in heaven and no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus Mickey.

Well probally will not hear from Mickey again.

Also Mickey where did Jesus go after he died on the cross?

 

[Mickey]

Show the verses.

Hello jmcrae,

Slava Isusu Christu!

I am sorry to say that rinnie will never show you the verses–or anything else for that matter. She is stubbornly locked into a circular pattern of false understanding and she tries to set it forth on this forum as legitimate Catholic teaching. I hope that the protestants and lurkers on this forum do not adhere to what she proclaims. Many knowledgeable Catholics here have attempted to gently correct her, but she will not retreat from her false beliefs. Personally, I will not respond to her any longer because of her continuing pattern of insults and failure to understand the charitable corrections that are offered to her. I have placed her on my ignore list, but perhaps you and the other good Catholics here can set her straight.

Peace and blessings,
Mickey