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wintersnow
Guest
Where does the Pope say the the rich man is condemned to hell?
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Mickey
Guest
Yes. And you twisted it to fit into your strange little interpretation of the rich man being in purgatory.
None of the Church fathers agree with you.
The CCC does not agree with you…
Very few of the Catholic posters here agree with you.
Pope Benedict is not saying what you want him to say–and if he is–then he is directly contradicting the great Pope John Paul II.
But in your incurable obstinacy, you continue in your errors.
Lord have mercy.
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Mickey
Guest
Read post 414.
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Mickey
Guest
By the way rinnie, I know it is you and I am putting you on my ignore list again. You are the first one to make it on the ignore list twice under two different names. :tiphat:
I knew you would not be able to refrain yourself. :nope:
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paul_c
Guest
I don’t know why you two are arguing so vehemently about this because I don’t think the church is fully clear about what happens after death. I would be interested in your opinions on the following
I think we can agree
If you understand catholic teaching you know that there are three distinct periods of time involving salvation as well.
Period 1: before Jesus: heaven was not an option
Period 2: Now : when people die they will be judged immediately but stay as souls
Period 3: the final judgment: People are reunited with their bodies and placed in heaven or hell.
Everything else seems to be conjecture, with no firm position.
So the question at hand seems to be where do the dead go in the first period of time when heaven was not an option? Is there a fourth place, a holding area for souls that is neither heaven, hell or purgatory. Or perhaps, there really was only 3 places all along, and that prior to Jesus, the only options were Hell or Purgatory and that some areas of purgatory were actually pleasant. Or maybe, there is only one place at this point: Purgatory with a wide range of conditions.
And what about the second time period (now), prior to the last judgment. Did that 4th place disappear or be replaced by Purgatory? there seems to be no reason to have 2 holdng places, right? but its also clear that some of the dead are not in heaven or in hell, because we are taught to pray for the dead and they can not benefit in hell and need no help in heaven.
After the last judgment, does purgatory cease to exist as well? It would seem to be irrelevant.
I would be very interested in opinions on this.
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Mickey
Guest
No kidding!
Is that what this is about? Because I am Orthodox and reject the doctrine of purgatory, you are trying to prove the doctrine of purgatory using this parable? You are a real hoot!
Of course I reject purgatory!
But for the purposes of this thread, I am putting aside my personal view of the doctrine itself and saying that the rich man is not in the RC understanding of purgatory. And it is not taught by your Church that the rich man is in purgatory (as understood by the RCC).
Notice how very few Catholics, (except rinnie/wintersnow), have come to your defense.
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Mickey
Guest
I would just like to stick to the parable. Thank you.
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paul_c
Guest
It is also not taught that he is not in Prugatory. the church isn’t clear on this.No kidding!
Is that what this is about? Because I am Orthodox and reject the doctrine of purgatory, you are trying to prove the doctrine of purgatory using this parable? You are a real hoot!
Of course I reject purgatory!
But for the purposes of this thread, I am putting aside my personal view of the doctrine itself and saying that the rich man is not in the RC understanding of purgatory. And it is not taught by your Church that the rich man is in purgatory (as understood by the RCC).
Notice how very few Catholics, (except rinnie/wintersnow), have come to your defense.
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steve_b
Guest
I don’t know why you two are arguing so vehemently about this because I don’t think the church is fully clear about what happens after death. I would be interested in your opinions on the following
I think we can agree
Hi Paul
Thanks for joining in
Mickey isn’t Catholic and he rejects Purgatory.There’s the big disagreement
Paul:
Jews apparantly have the latter view
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4704142&postcount=409
Paul:
Exactly
Paul:
Correct.
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Jerry-Jet
Guest
Sorry to just pop in without reading the whole thread just answer this:
Was the rich man in Hell or purgatory?
I’ve heard Catholics who sound like they know what they’re talking about argue it both ways.
What’s the answer?
Was Abraham’s bosom that part of Sheol that was the abode of the righteous dead before Christ?
Would Adam and all the righteous been there awaiting Jesus to open the gates of heaven?
When Jesus 'preached to the spirits in prison" as one of St. Peter’s letters in the New Testament states would it have been to people like Lazarus or was there a further division of sheol–the righteous–those who after Christ would have needed to be in purgatory–and those who would have been in Sheol awaiting Hell?
Or is the parable of lazarus illustrative of the chasm between good and evil and not necessarily indicating sheol and purgatory per se but idnicating Heaven and Hell?
Was the rich man in Hell or purgatory?
I’ve heard Catholics who sound like they know what they’re talking about argue it both ways.
What’s the answer?
Was Abraham’s bosom that part of Sheol that was the abode of the righteous dead before Christ?
Would Adam and all the righteous been there awaiting Jesus to open the gates of heaven?
When Jesus 'preached to the spirits in prison" as one of St. Peter’s letters in the New Testament states would it have been to people like Lazarus or was there a further division of sheol–the righteous–those who after Christ would have needed to be in purgatory–and those who would have been in Sheol awaiting Hell?
Or is the parable of lazarus illustrative of the chasm between good and evil and not necessarily indicating sheol and purgatory per se but idnicating Heaven and Hell?
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steve_b
Guest
You’re the OP not me. You’re the one who edited my post and brought my post over here. You set the tone of the thread. You’re the one with the agenda.No kidding!
Is that what this is about? Because I am Orthodox and reject the doctrine of purgatory, you are trying to prove the doctrine of purgatory using this parable? You are a real hoot!
Of course I reject purgatory!
oh quit, I can’t even breathe
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Mickey
Guest
St John Chrysostom, St Romanos, St Ambrose, St Nikolai (Orthodox), and Pope John Paul II, are very clear.
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Mickey
Guest
Of course.
But this thread is not about the doctrine of purgatory.
You have been proven wrong about your false understanding of this parable, and now you attempt to continuously derail this thread.
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Mickey
Guest
The moderators granted my request and removed the post. You can stop whining now.
If you would like to discuss my views on purgatory, take it to the relevant thread.
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rinnie
Guest
I can see now steve whats going on. It was Mickey that started this thread because this thread was a parable and a way of showing that the waiting place for the dead and purgatory could indeed be the same place.You’re the OP not me. You’re the one who edited my post and brought my post over here. You set the tone of the thread. You’re the one with the agenda.
How could we possibly talk about this parable and not compare it to purgatory. Its impossible thats why this thread was started.
Mickey would not let us talk about this thread because it very may indeed prove purgatory. So he made us bring the parable over here. Why ? if we cannot talk about purgatory thats what the parable is about. How in the world can we show how this parable could be purgatory if we cannot talk about purgatory.
You have to quit because Mickey will make sure that no one can have an opinion but him. Well Mickey you never showed me anything. All you ever showed me is that no one can have a shot to prove their point because it somehow upsets you so bad.
So its not worth this awful game you are playing so I am out. But all you did was show me how awful and mean people can treat someone when they disagree with you.
And go on and turn me in because if telling the truth gets me thrown off the site so be it. If anyone disgreed with Mickey he would say horrible mean un- Christian things.
I will pray for you Mickey that you somehow find peace in your life. You are unbelievable. And this is not normal I am sorry!
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Mickey
Guest
Wow! I took you off the ignore list because I thought you were bowing out of this thread and now I see this! How very sad. I feel bad for you–that you have to stoop to telling lies. How dare you accuse me of saying “horrible mean un-Christian things”. Perahps you are upset because I proved that the Christian world, including the RCC, does not view the parable of Lazarus and the rich man as a proof for the RC doctrine of purgatory. Whatever the reason, it is always a sad thing when someone must falsely accuse and lie with the uttermost lack of charity.
Thank you rinnie. I need many prayers. And as it stands right now–I have wonderful peace in my life–I pray that it continues by the grace of God.
No. It certainly is not. You are back on the ignore list.
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Mickey
Guest
The rich man was condemned to hell,** not for the evils he committed, the lies he told, the blasphemies and bad words he uttered, but for failing to do what he should have done. “I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink… Lord, when did we see you hungry, thirsty, naked, homeless, sick or imprisoned?.. As long as you did not do this to the least of my brothers, you did not do it to me… These will go to eternal damnation, while the just to eternal life” (cf. Mt 25:31-46).**
Fr Sebastian Vazhakala, M.C.
**Co-founder and Superior General of the Missionaries of Charity – Contemplative of Mother Teresa of **Calcutta
ewtn.com/library/MARY/JP2ANMTR.HTM
Fr Sebastian Vazhakala, M.C.
**Co-founder and Superior General of the Missionaries of Charity – Contemplative of Mother Teresa of **Calcutta
ewtn.com/library/MARY/JP2ANMTR.HTM
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jmcrae
Guest
If you mean to convert Mickey to your point of view, you are going about it in the wrong way.
First, if you want to prove the existence of Purgatory, the role of this particular parable in that argument is simply to show that third states are possible. There is no indication that either the Rich Man or Lazarus are in Purgatory; however, Lazarus (since he is neither in Heaven, since he can’t see God, nor in Hell, since he is enjoying the company of Abraham, our father in faith) is in some kind of a third state. (The Rich Man, however, is clearly either in Hell, or on his way to Hell.)
Once you have proven the existence or the possibility of third states, you then move on to other Scripture verses and other evidence, to show the existence of Purgatory. You don’t wind around and around and around on this parable, nor beat it completely to death.
Second, if you want to have a civilized discussion, you start with what you have in common with the other person; you don’t attack them or belittle them or make fun of them every time they say something. And you don’t disagree with them merely for the sake of being contrary, when they point out something that is actually true. Truth is always truth, and all truth comes from the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, so there is no harm in admitting that something true is, in fact, true, because it is simply affirming the faith that has been handed down to us from Peter and the Apostles.
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Mickey
Guest
Thank you jmcrae. Your posts exude a wonderful example of Christian love and charity.Second, if you want to have a civilized discussion, you start with what you have in common with the other person; you don’t attack them or belittle them or make fun of them every time they say something. And you don’t disagree with them merely for the sake of being contrary, when they point out something that is actually true. Truth is always truth, and all truth comes from the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, so there is no harm in admitting that something true is, in fact, true, because it is simply affirming the faith that has been handed down to us from Peter and the Apostles.
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Mickey
Guest
Today’s Gospel offers the parable of the “rich man” and poor Lazarus (cf. Lk 16: 19-31). The rich man lives in opulence and luxury oblivious of the beggar lying at his door. But after they die their fate is reversed**, **Lazarus is carried away to heaven, whilst the rich man falls into the netherworld of torments.
Pope John Paul II
Pope John Paul II
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