Lazarus and the Rich Man

[rinnie]

Newsflash for you: the people of the Old Testament did not go to Heaven until after Jesus rose from the dead.

There was no need of Purgatory at that time, because nobody was going to Heaven, yet.

Instead, they went to the Limbo of the Fathers (also called Sheol, Abraham’s Bosom, Hades, etc.) This was not a place of purification; it was a place of waiting.

Time out. Where in scripture or in SS does it say that there was no need for a final cleansing?

And did Jesus not go to release the many souls held in the bosom of Abraham, and since the creation of the world this place of waiting and cleansing was a place of purgation.

 

[Sir_Knight]

I don’t know of anything in any teaching of the Church to say that people lose their natural affections when they go to Hell.

Are you saying that those in hell are still receiving grace from God? I don’t know of any teaching of the Church that says that.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Hey rinnie, good to see ya

 

[jmcrae]

Newsflash: they also went to Purgatory!

So they didn’t need to be purified? Or did they just hang out waiting for Jesus to rise from the dead and then entered Purgatory? Please provide references to support either opinion.

We have been over this earlier in the thread. If they needed purification, this happened when Heaven was opened up to them. But they were under the requirements of the Old Covenant, so their keeping of Old Covenant law should have been sufficient for them - they should not have needed Purgatory.

 

[jmcrae]

Are you saying that those in hell are still receiving grace from God? I don’t know of any teaching of the Church that says that.

They are still alive, are they not? (You can’t experience pain, if you are not alive.) Life comes from God. So, yes, they could very well still retain the natural gifts that they have received from God, including, quite probably, their natural affections.

 

[Sir_Knight]

We have been over this earlier in the thread. If they needed purification, this happened when Heaven was opened up to them. But they were under the requirements of the Old Covenant, so their keeping of Old Covenant law should have been sufficient for them - they should not have needed Purgatory.

I know that we went over it before but you clearly didn’t catch it the first time around.

And why did the Jews pray for the dead? If there was no purification, what was the point of praying for them?

And NOWHERE does it say that purgatory was suddenly created.

 

[Sir_Knight]

They are still alive, are they not? (You can’t experience pain, if you are not alive.) Life comes from God. So, yes, they could very well still retain the natural gifts that they have received from God, including, quite probably, their natural affections.

They COULD but they don’t because the saints have told us that those who are in hell become a part of hell.

 

[jmcrae]

Then why did the Jews pray for the dead? If there was no purification, what was the point of praying for them?

And NOWHERE does it say that purgatory was suddenly created.

Purgatory is a region of Heaven to which people go to be purified before entering into the Beatific Vision.

People could not go to Heaven (not even any outer region of it) before Jesus rose from the dead.

Therefore, logically, it was not possible for people to go to Purgatory (a region of Heaven) before Jesus rose from the dead.

Were they being purified in Sheol? Maybe. But even if they were, this does not cause Sheol/Hades/whatever to be Purgatory. They are two different places.

 

[jmcrae]

They COULD but they don’t because the saints have told us that those who are in hell become a part of hell.

This sounds heretical, to me. The souls in Hell are still human souls, with their human knowledge and understanding and natural affections, etc. They don’t metamorphose into something else.

 

[rinnie]

We have been over this earlier in the thread. If they needed purification, this happened when Heaven was opened up to them. But they were under the requirements of the Old Covenant, so their keeping of Old Covenant law should have been sufficient for them - they should not have needed Purgatory.

But I thought Jesus fullfilled the OT. Hi Sir Knight.

 

[jmcrae]

But I thought Jesus fullfilled the OT. Hi Sir Knight.

YES, that’s why they went straight to Heaven as soon as He rose from the dead, on the basis of their keeping of the OT Law. Because He fulfilled it!

 

[rinnie]

YES, that’s why they went straight to Heaven as soon as He rose from the dead, on the basis of their keeping of the OT Law. Because He fulfilled it!

Oh so they skipped judgement?

 

[jmcrae]

Oh so they skipped judgement?

They were judged when they died, in the Particular Judgment. Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant on the Cross. Remember? Then, Jesus went down to Sheol for three days (40 hours, really, from the Hour of Mercy until Matins of Easter)

Then, He rose from the dead, Heaven was opened up to the human race, and they went to Heaven.

 

[rinnie]

No. They experienced Judgment at the Cross. Remember? Then, Jesus went down to Sheol for three days (40 hours, really, from the Hour of Mercy until Matins of Easter)

Then, He rose from the dead, Heaven was opened up to the human race, and they went to Heaven.

No you lost me completely. They Lazarus, the rich man and Abraham. Who experienced Judgement on the Cross?

 

[jmcrae]

No you lost me completely. They Lazarus, the rich man and Abraham.

Particular judgment happens at the moment of death. Lazarus was in Sheol with Abraham, waiting for Jesus. The rich man was across the great impassible divide that no one can cross over - he was in Hell.

Who experienced Judgement on the Cross?

Forget it; I phrased that wrong. The Cross was the fulfillment of the Old Covenant; it was not a judgment.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Purgatory is a region of Heaven to which people go to be purified before entering into the Beatific Vision.

People could not go to Heaven (not even any outer region of it) before Jesus rose from the dead.

Therefore, logically, it was not possible for people to go to Purgatory (a region of Heaven) before Jesus rose from the dead.

Were they being purified in Sheol? Maybe. But even if they were, this does not cause Sheol/Hades/whatever to be Purgatory. They are two different places.

So you say and so you obviously believe but nowhere does it say that Purgatory is part of heaven. Purgatory is purgatory. It is not heaven.

 

[Sir_Knight]

This sounds heretical, to me. The souls in Hell are still human souls, with their human knowledge and understanding and natural affections, etc. They don’t metamorphose into something else.

Then why has the church APPROVED these private revelations saying that they contain NOTHING which conflicts with church teaching?

 

[rinnie]

And no offense but how could you even begin to know what type of Mercy God had. The whole reason for this thread was to prove how the Rich Man was in a Place of Purgation which was what we today call Purgatory.

We believe that the rich man was indeed in that place. We believe that because of his Mercy that is why he was there. And the rich man did indeed have Grace, Grace that is a gift from God.

We have been all through this. That Grace is what I believe saved the rich man.

I have said before and ironically Mickey agreed. Abraham and Lazarus were righteous, People in hell will never see the righteous. What are you trying to say?

 

[Benadam]

YES, that’s why they went straight to Heaven as soon as He rose from the dead, on the basis of their keeping of the OT Law. Because He fulfilled it!

Ok, I’m not exactly sure of the proper catechesis about this but it has been my understanding that the law was not able to perfect the soul. It was able to permitt entrance to heaven through obedience to it as Jesus taught the rich young man who asked how to get to heaven but Jesus followed that with what he must do if he wished to be perfect.

I thought that when Jesus decended to sheol that it was divided by the etrnality(?) of His Divine nature into eternal hell for those who remained and Purgatory for those who would follow Him and become perfect.

Pardon my intrusion.

 

[Sir_Knight]

The rich man was across the great impassible divide that no one can cross over - he was in Hell.

The Rich Man expressed concern for his brothers. Compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are forever cut off from God’s graces. Therefore, he was NOT in hell. He was in purgatory.

See? I can repeat things too!