Lazarus and the Rich Man

[Sir_Knight]

(The Rich Man, however, is clearly either in Hell, or on his way to Hell.)

The Rich Man is CLEARLY not in hell or on his way to hell because he expressed concern about his brothers not having to endure the same type of punishment as he is going through. Compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God’s graces for all eternity. Thus, he can not be in hell and he clearly isn’t in heaven either because there is no suffering in heaven. Therefore, he is CLEARLY in purgatory.

 

[jmcrae]

The Rich Man is CLEARLY not in hell or on his way to hell because he expressed concern about his brothers not having to endure the same type of punishment as he is going through.

We actually have no way of knowing what the state of mind of people in Hell is going to be, or whether they can wish good for others, or not. In any case, his request was denied.

Compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God’s graces for all eternity. Thus, he can not be in hell and he clearly isn’t in heaven either because there is no suffering in heaven. Therefore, he is CLEARLY in purgatory.

Do we have to re-write this whole thread over again?

We have already proven that it cannot be Purgatory, because Purgatory didn’t exist yet in the time period given for the parable (previous to Christ’s Resurrection).

 

[Sir_Knight]

We actually have no way of knowing what the state of mind of people in Hell is going to be, or whether they can wish good for others, or not. In any case, his request was denied.

But we do know that concern for others is a sign of compassion and compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are forever cut off from His graces. Thus, we CAN know that they will not have any concern for those that they left behind.

Do we have to re-write this whole thread over again?

Perhaps since you didn’t understand this concept the first time around.

We have already proven that it cannot be Purgatory, because Purgatory didn’t exist yet in the time period given for the parable (previous to Christ’s Resurrection).

Actually, you haven’t PROVEN it. You expressed an OPINION which I disagree with. When did purgatory come into existence? Where is this documented?

 

[Sir_Knight]

No. The Limbo of the Fathers (sheol, hades, gehenna, or whatever you choose to call it) ceased to exist when Jesus arose from the dead. It was replaced with Purgatory, Heaven, and Hell.

Supporting references, please, for this opinion.

 

[Sir_Knight]

In Wisdom 3:5-6 we see that the dead are tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward – this is the fire of purgatory!

And this was written MANY years before Jesus rose from the dead.

 

[jmcrae]

Actually, you haven’t PROVEN it. You expressed an OPINION which I disagree with. When did purgatory come into existence? Where is this documented?

It did not come into existence until it became possible for human beings to go to Heaven. This happened when Jesus rose from the dead. This is the teaching of the Church. Look under “Four Last Things” in the Catechism of your choice.

 

[jmcrae]

But we do know that concern for others is a sign of compassion and compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are forever cut off from His graces. Thus, we CAN know that they will not have any concern for those that they left behind.

The unbaptized do the same, yet we know that they have no grace from God. It is natural to be concerned about one’s relatives. Notice that he still has no concern for Lazarus; indeed, he wants him to leave his place of repose and be raised from the dead, to carry messages and run errands as if he were a servant boy.

 

[Sir_Knight]

It did not come into existence until it became possible for human beings to go to Heaven. This happened when Jesus rose from the dead.

That doesn’t explain the quote from the book of Wisdom which I provided above which was written many years before Jesus rose from the dead.

This is the teaching of the Church.

Where? When?

Look under “Four Last Things” in the Catechism of your choice.

Please quote it for us and show us how it supports your opinion. Thank you.

 

[Sir_Knight]

The unbaptized do the same, yet we know that they have no grace from God. It is natural to be concerned about one’s relatives. Notice that he still has no concern for Lazarus; indeed, he wants him to leave his place of repose and be raised from the dead, to carry messages and run errands as if he were a servant boy.

The unbaptized have no grace from God? So I guess the angel Gabriel was really off-base when he told Mary that she was “full of grace” since she wasn’t baptized.

 

[jmcrae]

The unbaptized have no grace from God? So I guess the angel Gabriel was really off-base when he told Mary that she was “full of grace” since she wasn’t baptized.

She didn’t need to be baptized. She was immaculately conceived.

 

[Sir_Knight]

She didn’t need to be baptized. She was immaculately conceived.

Still shoots down your incorrect opinion that the unbaptized receive no grace from God.

 

[jmcrae]

That doesn’t explain the quote from the book of Wisdom which I provided above which was written many years before Jesus rose from the dead.

The Book of Wisdom is prophecy about what will happen when Jesus comes.

Where? When?

637 In his human soul united to his divine person, the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened heaven’s gates for the just who had gone before him.

Heaven was not opened up to human beings until Jesus rose from the dead, after preaching to them in Sheol.
**
III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.604 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:605

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.606

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."607 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.608 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.609**

Purgatory is a preparation of the Elect (the baptized who have persevered in grace) for Heaven.

 

[jmcrae]

Still shoots down your incorrect opinion that the unbaptized receive no grace from God.

Okay, I will amend it to say, Those without grace from God (the normal means of grace being Baptism) do not have grace from God.

Happy?

 

[Sir_Knight]

Okay, I will amend it to say, Those without grace from God (the normal means of grace being Baptism) do not have grace from God.

Happy?

No. Because the CCC tells us in a number of places that it is through the grace of God that one is brought to the faith. Thus, unbaptized adults who are wish to become Catholic, do so because they received grace from God.

 

[jmcrae]

No. Because the CCC tells us in a number of places that it is through the grace of God that one is brought to the faith. Thus, unbaptized adults who are wish to become Catholic, do so because they received grace from God.

This is prevenient grace; it is not the grace of the Sacraments, nor the grace of salvation.

 

[Sir_Knight]

The Book of Wisdom is prophecy about what will happen when Jesus comes.

637 In his human soul united to his divine person, the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened heaven’s gates for the just who had gone before him.

Heaven was not opened up to human beings until Jesus rose from the dead, after preaching to them in Sheol.
**
III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.604 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:605

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.606

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."607 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.608 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.609**

Purgatory is a preparation of the Elect (the baptized who have persevered in grace) for Heaven.

You are equating the Elect with baptized as if they were the same thing and while they may be now, they were not back then. Thus a false comparison leads to an incorrect conclusion the purgatory is only for the baptized and did not exist before Christ rose from the dead.

 

[Sir_Knight]

This is prevenient grace; it is not the grace of the Sacraments, nor the grace of salvation.

It is A grace from God and those in hell are forever cut off from God’s graces.

 

[jmcrae]

You are equating the Elect with baptized as if they were the same thing and while they may be now, they were not back then. Thus a false comparison leads to an incorrect conclusion the purgatory is only for the baptized and did not exist before Christ rose from the dead.

Newsflash for you: the people of the Old Testament did not go to Heaven until after Jesus rose from the dead.

There was no need of Purgatory at that time, because nobody was going to Heaven, yet.

Instead, they went to the Limbo of the Fathers (also called Sheol, Abraham’s Bosom, Hades, etc.) This was not a place of purification; it was a place of waiting.

 

[jmcrae]

It is A grace from God and those in hell are forever cut off from God’s graces.

I don’t know of anything in any teaching of the Church to say that people lose their natural affections when they go to Hell.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Newsflash for you: the people of the Old Testament did not go to Heaven until after Jesus rose from the dead.

Newsflash: they also went to Purgatory!

There was no need of Purgatory at that time, because nobody was going to Heaven, yet.

Instead, they went to the Limbo of the Fathers (also called Sheol, Abraham’s Bosom, Hades, etc.) This was not a place of purification; it was a place of waiting.

So they didn’t need to be purified? Or did they just hang out waiting for Jesus to rise from the dead and then entered Purgatory? Please provide references to support either opinion.