Lazarus and the Rich Man

[rinnie]

I think the problem here is that you seem to think that just because the Rich man was sincere in his plea for his brothers that he was not deserving of Hell. Where is it taught that the condemned have no redeeming features? In fact, everyone I’ve ever met has some redeeming qualities, but in the end they probably all will not be saved. In fact, Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount that you must love your enemies, explaining that even the tax collectors loved those that loved them, so why should that be credited as righteous? This is all the rich man did after all, loved those that loved him.

No that is not true. I do not think that he was not deserving of hell. I think that we are all at one time or another in our lives deserving of hell. BUt to go to hell it is willfull and turning away from God is necessary and persistence in it until the end.

Now while I agree that he was in sin, I never denied that, I think that God is who judges our sins.

Now if you could just see where I was comming from. Jesus died for our sins. so we could be forgiven. Now in the parable of the rich man Jesus indeed has not died yet, So there was no forgiveness for sins. I agree with that.

But what is hell. Hell is the state of definitive self-excusion for communion with God and the blessed is called hell.

Now Jesus often speaks of gehenna of the Unquenchable fire reserved for those who refuse to believe and be converted.

Now I agree we all have to go to communion, pray, confession, but it was Jesus comming to save us that made all of these things possible. Where would we be, if Jesus did not come and give us these Graces. Do you see at all, where I am comming from? That is why I think in this parable Jesus did not mean a certain rich man, he was talking to us. We are all the rich man, and we need to change our ways. ANd forget the rich man for a moment the Point of me bringing the parable is it could show there was a other place between heaven and hell. And I believe that middle place still exists. Do you understand what I am saying. Let me say this, Lazarus and Abraham were not in heaven and not in hell, but in a middle place. And I believe this middle place is still in existance. A holding place, but now if you are cleansed from sin, you no longer have to wait for heaven to be opened up. But if you have venial sin, this is still a place to be cleansed. We just call it purgatory now. Do I make any sense to you at all?

 

[Mickey]

We are all the rich man

Let us hope not. It was too late for him.

 

[paul_c]

I pulled up this parable again:

There was a rich man who dressed in purple garments and fine linen and dined sumptuously each day. And lying at his door was a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who would gladly have eaten his fill of the scraps that fell from the rich man’s table. Dogs even used to come and lick his sores.

When the poor man died, he was carried away by angels to the bosom of Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried, and from the netherworld, where he was in torment, he raised his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he cried out, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me. Send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am suffering torment in these flames.’ Abraham replied, ‘My child, remember that you received what was good during your lifetime while Lazarus likewise received what was bad; but now he is comforted here, whereas you are tormented. Moreover, between us and you a great chasm is established to prevent anyone from crossing who might wish to go from our side to yours or from your side to ours.’

He said, ‘Then I beg you, father, send him to my father’s house,
for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they too come to this place of torment.’ But Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the prophets. Let them listen to them.’ 15 He said, ‘Oh no, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ Then Abraham said, ‘If they will not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone should rise from the dead.’"

The first paragraph describes what happened in life. The rich man had all that was Good, the poor man had a miserable life and it is implied that the rich man did nothing to help the poor man at his door.

In the second paragraph, we find that Lazarus is brought by the Angels to a good place (the busom of Abraham) and that the rich man is in torment. We are never really told why this is the case, only that theie situations have switched, with the poor man getting what was good and the richman being tormented. The other message that is clear in this paragraph is that people can’t go from the bad place to the good place or visa versa. This would seem to eliminate the bad place as Purgatory, since all those in Purgatory will be brought to heaven after their purification. It does not preclude, however, the busom of Abraham from being Purgatory. It just isn’t specific in this regard. We know it can’t be heaven because the gates had not been opened.

I think the third paragraph is actually the meat of this parable and that this is the reason it was told… In it , the rich man asks for someone to rise from the Dead to warn his brothers to repent… Abraham’s reply is that even that won’t be enough for people who don’t believe Moses and the Prophets. I think Jesus used this parable not to explain the existence of purgatory but to explain that even his resurrection wouldn’t convince everyone to follow his teachings.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

**
… I think Jesus used this parable not to explain the existence of purgatory but to explain that even his resurrection wouldn’t convince everyone to follow his teachings.**
**
Hi Paul,

I believe you are correct. Protestants prove your point. Even though Jesus died so they can have eternal life, they refuse to follow His true teachings. They rather ignore His 2,000 year old church for Satan “New Age” religion! Feel good, everyone rejoice and drink Grape Juice~! They may not be able to get on the right side of the great chasm established to prevent anyone from crossing who might wish to go from Satan’s side to God’s or from God’s side to Satan’s

God Bless
**

 

[Benadam]

Thank you and I am seeing now how you are saying the middle state was given degrees and how one was more or less at the highest and one was at the lowest. But getting back to really the main point, do you agree that the middle state did indeed exist then, and there is a middle state that does indeed exist today. That is the whole point of this is to prove that the state indeed exists. And do you believe that again to my point that when we die if we die with venial sin, that we can still go to purgatory, which is still the middle state and be cleansed thru the fires to be freed from our sin. Which is a middle state which we call purgatory, and we can indeed pray our loved ones out of it. Or do you like Mickey agree that Purgatory is again just in my mind.

rinnie, I will say there were a multitude of middle states between the most and least condemned and another multitude of middle states between the children of Abraham who were purified during their earthly life and those who’s works will be all burnt up although they will be saved.

Let me make a comparison. Would you be able to say that there is a middle state between the Church and those who appear outside the Church but in the end were members unbeknownst to all and those who are outside the Church and remain outside eternally?

This is the picture of sheol accepting that outside the arms of Abraham there is no salvation but abraham would like the Church have invisible arms that hold children of his unbeknownst to him and those outside the arms of Abraham are condemned.

the picture of souls before we see the face of God

you see the middle ground isn’t subject to observation in sheol any more than a middle ground is on earth. Not that a state of purgation doesn’t exist at all because we know it does on earth but does it constitute a boundary that the Church could define? Nope that is invisible and awaits the light of Our Lord to be seen.
If it exists in sheol it would have to wait till the light of Christ’s soul to expose it as well.

 

[Benadam]

I think the third paragraph is actually the meat of this parable and that this is the reason it was told… In it , the rich man asks for someone to rise from the Dead to warn his brothers to repent… Abraham’s reply is that even that won’t be enough for people who don’t believe Moses and the Prophets. I think Jesus used this parable not to explain the existence of purgatory but to explain that even his resurrection wouldn’t convince everyone to follow his teachings.

I can picture Jesus thinking of the news of His rising from the dead spreading out and how the memory of the moments He told this story would spring forth in the minds that surrounded Him giving the Holy Spirit a doorway for them to receive Grace to know Him and believe.

Thank you paul

 

[Mickey]

Here’s another good one by the great theologian!

**“And here we must remark what fearful sufferings are heaped upon the rich man in flames. For in addition to his punishment, his knowledge and memory are preserved. He knew Lazarus whom he despised, he remembered his brethren whom he left. For that sinners in punishment may be still more punished, they both see the glory of those whom they had despised, and are harassed about the punishment of those whom they have unprofitably loved.” **
**(St Gregory the Great, Pope of Rome) **

 

[rinnie]

rinnie, I will say there were a multitude of middle states between the most and least condemned and another multitude of middle states between the children of Abraham who were purified during their earthly life and those who’s works will be all burnt up although they will be saved.

Let me make a comparison. Would you be able to say that there is a middle state between the Church and those who appear outside the Church but in the end were members unbeknownst to all and those who are outside the Church and remain outside eternally?

This is the picture of sheol accepting that outside the arms of Abraham there is no salvation but abraham would like the Church have invisible arms that hold children of his unbeknownst to him and those outside the arms of Abraham are condemned.

the picture of souls before we see the face of God

you see the middle ground isn’t subject to observation in sheol any more than a middle ground is on earth. Not that a state of purgation doesn’t exist at all because we know it does on earth but does it constitute a boundary that the Church could define? Nope that is invisible and awaits the light of Our Lord to be seen.
If it exists in sheol it would have to wait till the light of Christ’s soul to expose it as well.

Thanks ben, I have alot of questions I still have not got answered yet. But I know in my heart it cannot be on here right now either. So I have to walk away for now. RC is right, he knows me pretty well, and I can get hot headed and I am ashamed of myself. Some people can bring out the best in you and some the worst.

And this is no place for that. So maybe we can start another thread and when you RC, Randy and all of the others who agree with me on purgatory can get together you can show me where I was missing some things in the Parable. But thank-you for the time already all who have helped. And Sir Knight know you have been getting pounded with the weather, like us, and know your schedule is so hard right now, Thank-you from the bottom of my heart.

If so let me know when and where guys and I will be eager to learn. Got alot to ask you guys.

To everyone else God Bless you and Be with you. And may he continue to grant us with his grace.

 

[Mickey]

I am grateful to all who participated in this thread. I think that we all learned something. I have done extensive study on this parable and this thread has allowed me to share much of it. We have heard a consensus of Catholic and Orthodox sources who all agree with the interpretation of this parable. These sources include, but are not limited to:

St Romanos the Melodist
St Theophylact
St Pope Gregory the Great
St Nikolai Velimirovic
St Cyril of Jerusalem
St John Chrysostom
Pope John Paul II (of blessed memory)
The CCC

Thank you one and all for a wonderful discussion!

 

[paul_c]

I am grateful to all who participated in this thread. I think that we all learned something. I have done extensive study on this parable and this thread has allowed me to share much of it. We have heard a consensus of Catholic and Orthodox sources who all agree with the interpretation of this parable. These sources include, but are not limited to:

St Romanos the Melodist
St Theophylact
St Pope Gregory the Great
St Nikolai Velimirovic
St Cyril of Jerusalem
St John Chrysostom
Pope John Paul II (of blessed memory)
The CCC

Thank you one and all for a wonderful discussion!

and for completeness, what do you think is their common interpretation of the parable?

Is it: The rich man is in hell but it is unclear where Lazarus is, whether in purgatory or some other similar place. He can’t be in heaven, since it wasn’t opened yet, right?

 

[Mickey]

Is it: The rich man is in hell but it is unclear where Lazarus is, whether in purgatory or some other similar place. He can’t be in heaven, since it wasn’t opened yet, right?

Well Paul…the parable tells us that Lazarus was lifted by angels and that he was comforted. It also tells us that the rich man was in torment. The Church has interpreted this to mean a foretaste of heaven and a foretaste of hell. The destinations were decided.

God bless.

 

[paul_c]

Well Paul…the parable tells us that Lazarus was lifted by angels and that he was comforted. It also tells us that the rich man was in torment. The Church has interpreted this to mean a foretaste of heaven and a foretaste of hell. The destinations were decided.

God bless.

Yes, it may be a foretaste but we all know that Heaven wasn’t opened until Jesus opened it after his death. That means that Lazarus could not have been in Heaven proper. Since he is most definitely not in hell, he has to be in a third place. Whether that place is the same as Purgatory may not be ours to know, but I would guess that it is.

By the way, I am quite sure that the Church fathers are correct in that the rich man is in Hell. It makes perfect sense, since he clearly is condemned and clearly has been told that he can’t cross over to where Lazarus is.

 

[Mickey]

Whether that place is the same as Purgatory may not be ours to know, but I would guess that it is.

Then you are wrong along with the minority of others who have tried to argue in favor of purgatory. And you are opposing church fathers and popes. Lazarus is in paradise and the rich man is in hell. The parable does not tell us about third places and it certainly does not imply purgatory.

But of course, you are entitled to your opinion.

 

[paul_c]

Then you are wrong along with the minority of others who have tried to argue in favor of purgatory. And you are opposing church fathers and popes. Lazarus is in paradise and the rich man is in hell. The parable does not tell us about third places and it certainly does not imply purgatory.

But of course, you are entitled to your opinion.

How, then do you explain that Lazarus could get into Heaven when Jesus hadn’t opened up the gates? Or do you believe that Jesus’s saving power was not necessary for people to get into Heaven and that he really didn’t need to undergo the Passion?

 

[Mickey]

How, then do you explain that Lazarus could get into Heaven when Jesus hadn’t opened up the gates? Or do you believe that Jesus’s saving power was not necessary for people to get into Heaven and that he really didn’t need to undergo the Passion?

Your angle is interesting. Until now, there have been a few arguing that the rich man was in purgatory. Why? Because the doctrine of purgatory speaks of a state or place of purification–possibly associated with pain. Can you show me where Lazarus was undergoing purification? Was he in any kind of painful purgation? What are the sins that Lazarus must be purified from? No Paul. This parable does not speak of purgatory. It speaks of heaven and hell. It is a parable. Let us look again at this quote from Pope John Paul II: (EMPHASIS MINE)

**Today’s Gospel offers the parable of the “rich man” and poor Lazarus (cf. Lk 16: 19-31). The rich man lives in opulence and luxury oblivious of the beggar lying at his door. But after they die their fate is reversed, **Lazarus is carried away to heaven, whilst the rich man falls into the netherworld of torments.
Pope John Paul II

 

[paul_c]

Your angle is interesting. Until now, there have been a few arguing that the rich man was in purgatory. Why? Because the doctrine of purgatory speaks of a state or place of purification–possibly associated with pain. Can you show me where Lazarus was undergoing purification? Was he in any kind of painful purgation? What are the sins that Lazarus must be purified from? No Paul. This parable does not speak of purgatory. It speaks of heaven and hell. It is a parable. Let us look again at this quote from Pope John Paul II: (EMPHASIS MINE)

Today’s Gospel offers the parable of the “rich man” and poor Lazarus (cf. Lk 16: 19**-31). The rich man lives in opulence and luxury oblivious of the beggar lying at his door. But after they die their fate is reversed, **Lazarus is carried away to heaven, whilst the rich man falls into the netherworld of torments.
Pope John Paul II

The parable is actually not very enlightening or even satisfying as to why Lazarus is rewarded, other than he was poor. Nothing is mentioned about anything he did or said for redemption, other than to suffer in poverty. If this parable was all you had to work with, you might come to the conclusion that the poor will go to heaven and the rich will go to Hell.

I think there are two main points to the Parable. One is that your economic status on earth is not indicative of future dispostion into Heaven or Hell. The second is I think the true lesson of the parable: that people who weren’t predispositioned to believe the scriptures, would not be convinced even with Jesus’ rising from the dead.

So the whole discussion about whether Lazarus is residing in heaven or Purgatory may be beside the point and may be reaching. However, you must admit that Heaven was not available before Jesus’ opened it up. So where did those who were awaiting salvation go before that time? Surely not to hell itself, right? Because we know from this parable that there is a boundary around Hell that can’t be crossed. If they are not in Heaven, or Hell, doesn’t that mean there has to be a third place?

 

[Mickey]

If this parable was all you had to work with, you might come to the conclusion that the poor will go to heaven and the rich will go to Hell.

Obviously we know that our destination is not dependent on monetary status.

that people who weren’t predispositioned to believe the scriptures, would not be convinced even with Jesus’ rising from the dead.

Yes, that is one of the lessons. This parable is very deep and rich in meaning. There are many levels to it. That is why I have decided to study it extensively.

However, you must admit that Heaven was not available before Jesus’ opened it up.

So where did those who were awaiting salvation go before that time?

The bosom of Abraham…
a place of comfort, being ministered to by angels.
Pope John Paul II says “heaven”.

Let me ask you this Paul: The council of Florence mentions purgatorial punishments. Why is Lazarus not going through this process?

It is likewise defined, that, if those truly penitent have departed in the love of God, before they have made satisfaction by worthy fruits of penance for sins of commission and omission, the souls of these are cleansed after death by purgatorial punishments…
Laetentur Coeli**,** Council of Florence (1439)

 

[Mickey]

If this parable was all you had to work with, you might come to the conclusion that the poor will go to heaven and the rich will go to Hell.

**“[T]he soul of Lazarus is neither anxious about present things nor looks ****back to anything that it has left behind. But the rich man. . .even after death is held down by his carnal life. For a person who becomes altogether carnal in his heart is not out of the ****reach of his passions even after he has put off his body.” **
St Gregory of Nyssa

---

---

 

[paul_c]

Let me ask you this Paul: The council of Florence mentions purgatorial punishments. Why is Lazarus not going through this process?

The parable isn’t detailed enough on this point to exclude the fact that he may have indeed gone through punishments or that his punishment was very light and had been completed and he was merely waiting for heaven to open up.

Or maybe, the point of this parable wasn’t really to discuss Purgatory.

But my point still stands. He wasn’t in heaven (which wasn’t open yet) and he wasn’t in hell, so he was clearly in a third place.

We know there is also a third place now that heaven has opened up too, because why else would we pray for the dead. the dead in heaven don’t need our help and the dead in hell are beyond our help. We call this third place Purgatory.

Could the third place prior to heaven open up, be different and distinct from the one that exists now? Perhaps. But that would make a 4th place… The church isn’t clear on this point and perhaps it is unknowable…

 

[Mickey]

The parable isn’t detailed enough on this point to exclude the fact that he may have indeed gone through punishments or that his punishment was very light and had been completed and he was merely waiting for heaven to open up.

That is why we do not imply purgatory to the parable.

Or maybe, the point of this parable wasn’t really to discuss Purgatory.

Correct. But if you think the parable proves purgatory, (which I think you do), then it is applicable. Otherwise, this thread is not about the doctrine itself.

so he was clearly in a third place.

It’s a parable. It’s about heaven and hell. The righteous and the unrighteous. The saved and the condemned. Why are you not getting this?

We know there is also a third place now that heaven has opened up too, because why else would we pray for the dead. the dead in heaven don’t need our help and the dead in hell are beyond our help. We call this third place Purgatory.

This thread is not about the doctrine itself. There is a thread ongoing right now for that discussion. Round and round we go. :whacky:

But that would make a 4th place.

Wha??? :bigyikes: