Lazarus and the Rich Man

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Are you looking to learn the truth, or not? This is not about purity of threads…
 
paul_c said:
Yes, it may be a foretaste but we all know that Heaven wasn’t opened until Jesus opened it after his death.

**Hi Paul c, 👋

what we all know is Time doesn’t work for God as It does for us! Who would ever think there was a Non-open sign on heaven when God was there? God is eternal so is heaven. You really have to stop thinking “this world” when talking about God and His ways! **

That means that Lazarus could not have been in Heaven proper. Since he is most definitely not in hell, he has to be in a third place. Whether that place is the same as Purgatory may not be ours to know, but I would guess that it is.

In a story it doesn’t matter it is a parable to teach a lesson. I don’t think that lesson was where they were.

By the way, I am quite sure that the Church fathers are correct in that the rich man is in Hell. It makes perfect sense, since he clearly is condemned and clearly has been told that he can’t cross over to where Lazarus is.

**Good you agree with some of the church fathers, PJPII wa a Church father also, wasn’t he? Well Lazarus was lifted by angels and that he was comforted. sounds like heaven to me! 😃 **
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Realcatholicgk:
RC you are going to get it. :slapfight: Just kidding. But here is one thing that is bothering me. Okay now Job prayed for his kids. And we are taught from Job right that we can pray our kids out of Purgatory. Now is that correct? And you better put me in first place. Even if I lose. 😃 :coolinoff: Did you see the weather channel . Good thing the steelers got out.We just got like 2 inches in a hour. That was supposed to be for the day!:eek:
 
Realcatholicgk said:
**Hi Mickey, 👋

For those who haven’t kept up! Benadam is head to head with RealC,Mickey had droped to second place, rinnie stays in 3rd Place, Paul c is now in 4th place 😃 **
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You may be in danger of the passion of pride if you put yourself in the lead. 😃

Benadam is good.

I’ll take second. :o
 
what we all know is Time doesn’t work for God as It does for us! Who would ever think there was a Non-open sign on heaven when God was there? God is eternal so is heaven. You really have to stop thinking “this world” when talking about God and His ways
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!
This is a good point. God is outside of time so perhaps there was always a heaven, hell, and Purgatory available. This leads into a question for which I have been struggling to find a satisfying answer . At death, we are told we will be given particular (individual) judgment. But then we are also told that at the end of time, there will be a general judgement, where our bodies are reunited with our souls and that the damned will go to the everlasting fire and the righteous into heaven. So do you think these are one in the same, since time no longer applies?
That means that Lazarus could not have been in Heaven proper. Since he is most definitely not in hell, he has to be in a third place. Whether that place is the same as Purgatory may not be ours to know, but I would guess that it is
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.

In a story it doesn’t matter it is a parable to teach a lesson. I don’t think that lesson was where they were.
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I’m in complete agreement that the discussion of Purgatory is not central to this parable. I think the central point of this parable is that people who couldn;t bring themselves to beleive scripture will not be persuaded by Jesus’ resurrection etiher. The secondary message is that those blessed on earth (the rich man) would not automatically be blessed in the afterlife. The third message is that no one can pass from hell to heaven.
By the way, I am quite sure that the Church fathers are correct in that the rich man is in Hell. It makes perfect sense, since he clearly is condemned and clearly has been told that he can’t cross over to where Lazarus is.
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Good you agree with some of the church fathers, PJPII wa a Church father also, wasn’t he? Well Lazarus was lifted by angels and that he was comforted. sounds like heaven to me!
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I knew my statement didn’t come off correctly because who am I to question the church fathers? However, to be clear. Purgatory, as a gateway to heaven, would also be comforting and since there are only angels and demons, I would think it would be the angels doing the purification.
 
paul_c said:
I think the central point of this parable is that people who couldn;t bring themselves to beleive scripture will not be persuaded by Jesus’ resurrection etiher. The secondary message is that those blessed on earth (the rich man) would not automatically be blessed in the afterlife. The third message is that no one can pass from hell to heaven.
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Here is an edifying perspective:

What excuse, therefore, shall we have if, while this man bore all these excessive evils with such fortitude, we cannot bear even the half of them? for you are unable----you are unable, I say, to show, or even to name, any man who has borne such numerous and heavy evils. For this cause, therefore, Christ brought them before our notice, in order that whensoever we fall into trouble, seeing in his case the exceeding greatness of his affliction, we may, from his wisdom and patience, gain effectual consolation and comfort; for he is set as a general instructor of the whole world, for all who are suffering any kind of distress; enabling all to look to one who surpassed them all in the exceeding greatness of his woes. For all these things, therefore, let us give thanks unto God----the merciful God; let us reap the benefit of this narrative, continually bearing it in mind, in the assembly, at home, in the market, yea everywhere; and let us diligently gain all the wealth of wisdom contained in this parable, in order that we may without grief pass through evils, and that we may attain the good things in store. Which benefits may we all be enabled to gain, by the grace and kindness of our Lord Jesus Christ, to whom, with the Father, together with the Holy Spirit, be praise, honour, adoration, now and ever, even to all eternity. Amen.
St John** Chrysostom**
 
Mickey said:
Here is an edifying perspective:

What excuse, therefore, shall we have if, while this man bore all these excessive evils with such fortitude, we cannot bear even the half of them? for you are unable----you are unable, I say, to show, or even to name, any man who has borne such numerous and heavy evils. For this cause, therefore, Christ brought them before our notice, in order that whensoever we fall into trouble, seeing in his case the exceeding greatness of his affliction, we may, from his wisdom and patience, gain effectual consolation and comfort; for he is set as a general instructor of the whole world, for all who are suffering any kind of distress; enabling all to look to one who surpassed them all in the exceeding greatness of his woes. For all these things, therefore, let us give thanks unto God----the merciful God; let us reap the benefit of this narrative, continually bearing it in mind, in the assembly, at home, in the market, yea everywhere; and let us diligently gain all the wealth of wisdom contained in this parable, in order that we may without grief pass through evils, and that we may attain the good things in store. Which benefits may we all be enabled to gain, by the grace and kindness of our Lord Jesus Christ, to whom, with the Father, together with the Holy Spirit, be praise, honour, adoration, now and ever, even to all eternity. Amen.
St John** Chrysostom**
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Its interesting that he would use this as a teaching point because the parable itself did not mention Lazaru’s fortitude, only the fact that he suffered severely in life. But it does offer hope, even to the most downtroddened. Similarly, I guess, it would drive trepidation into those that have an easy, rich lifestyle without caring for the least of their brothers… this parable does work on many levels.
 
paul_c said:
Could the third place prior to heaven open up, be different and distinct from the one that exists now? Perhaps. But that would make a 4th place… The church isn’t clear on this point and perhaps it is unknowable…
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According to my own Catechism teacher from when I was in RCIA, Lazarus and Abraham were in the Limbo of the Fathers (which indeed is a fourth place) - and according to the same teacher, the Limbo of the Fathers ceased to exist when Purgatory began to exist, at the moment that Jesus rose from the dead and emptied out the Limbo of the Fathers.

So far, that explanation is still the one that makes the most sense, to me. 🙂
 
paul_c said:
Its interesting that he would use this as a teaching point because the parable itself did not mention Lazaru’s fortitude, only the fact that he suffered severely in life. But it does offer hope, even to the most downtroddened. Similarly, I guess, it would drive trepidation into those that have an easy, rich lifestyle without caring for the least of their brothers… this parable does work on many levels.
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I agree with you Paul. And it reminds me of in this life those who finish first will finish last. Which shows us money means nothing in heaven or hell.
 
paul_c said:
Its interesting that he would use this as a teaching point because the parable itself did not mention Lazarus’ fortitude, only the fact that he suffered severely in life.
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Lazarus was carried by angels to the bosom of Abraham. If he had complained and cursed his lot in life, do you think he would have been carried by angels to the bosom of Abraham? No. He bore his suffering with patience, humility and fortitude.
 
Mickey said:
Lazarus was carried by angels to the bosom of Abraham. If he had complained and cursed his lot in life, do you think he would have been carried by angels to the bosom of Abraham? No. He bore his suffering with patience, humility and fortitude.
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Thats a fine assumption but it is NOT explicitly said. If you were arguing with someone who wasn’t willing to harmonize this with the rest of the scripture, they might argue that he was rewarded simply for being poor because that is ALL we are told about him. Don’t read more into it than was said.
 
paul_c said:
Thats a fine assumption but it is NOT explicitly said.
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It doesn’t need to be said. If he did not bear his suffering with fortitutude, he would not have been carried by the angels to the bosom of Abraham. Only the righteous and virtuous are saved. Complaining and grumbling is not virtuous. Furthermore, the Church Fathers have told you of his fortitude.

Do I need to show you teachings on the virtues and the passions now?
 
Mickey said:
It doesn’t need to be said. If he did not bear his suffering with fortitutude, he would not have been carried by the angels to the bosom of Abraham. Only the righteous and virtuous are saved. Complaining and grumbling is not virtuous. Furthermore, the Church Fathers have told you of his fortitude.

Do I need to show you teachings on the virtues and the passions now?
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No you don’t. Focus on the discussion. You said, He went straight to heaven. I said that while this might be true, its not explicitly said in the actual parable, which does not preclude the fact that he could be in Purgatory. The parable never says he didn’t grumble. and complain. You inferred that because you also inferred that he was in heaven. In fact, the parable is silent on all the facts of Lazarus’ life other than the fact that he suffered in poverty. I don’t believe there is enough information to say whether he is in heaven or Purgatory or Limbo, nor do I think that distinction is really the point of the parable. I think there is enough information to say that he will eventually be in Heaven, that is clear.
 
jmcrae said:
According to my own Catechism teacher from when I was in RCIA, Lazarus and Abraham were in the Limbo of the Fathers (which indeed is a fourth place) - and according to the same teacher, the Limbo of the Fathers ceased to exist when Purgatory began to exist, at the moment that Jesus rose from the dead and emptied out the Limbo of the Fathers.

So far, that explanation is still the one that makes the most sense, to me. 🙂
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Hold on, isn’t limbo rejected now. But purgatory still holds true? Or could limbo being cleaned out, be the only difference between limbo and purgatory? Same place, less people?
 
paul_c said:
If you were arguing with someone who wasn’t willing to harmonize this with the rest of the scripture, they might argue that he was rewarded simply for being poor because that is ALL we are told about him. Don’t read more into it than was said.
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Yes, and that would be a position taken by a protestant. But we know better. We have Church Tradition and the Holy Fathers are part of that Tradition.

Are you protestant?
 
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