Lazarus and the Rich Man

[rinnie]

I asked Mickey he never did answer me. He never does just insults me really. But thats okay. MY point why did Jesus go for 3 days?

After his death on the cross, he went to release many of the souls held in the Bosom of Abraham. Since the creation of the world. This place of PURGATION was a place of waiting and cleansing. Entrance into heaven could not take place until the sacrificial death of Jesus opened the gates of heaven.

to redeem means to buy back and Jesus did that on the cross. He bought us means of salvation.

Purgatory is a part of Gods salvation.

Notice the rich man is tormented in this flame but he desires to be merciful to his brothers.

Again the soul in torments of the hell of the damned does not have mercy for those who are still alive on earth.

THE RICH MAN MUST BE IN SOME OTHER LOCATION BECAUSE WHERE DIVINE MERCY IS PRACTICED, BECAUSE THERE IS NO MERCY IN THE HELL OF THE DAMNED.

THE RICH MAN IS SUFFERING MANY SEVERE TORMENTS THIS IS CALLED PURGATION THE CLEANSING OF IMPURITY AND SIN IN PURGATORY.

INTERCESSORY PRAYER IS HOLY.

Purgation is found in the book of hebrews, Isaias 1:25
Luke 3:17
John 15:2
1 corithians 5:7
Proverbs My favorite one. BY MERCY AND FAITH SINS ARE PURGED AWAY AND BY THE FEAR OF THE LORD EVERYONE DECLINETH FROM EVIL.
TOBIAS 12:9
MARK 7;19

 

[Mickey]

What I really think is that you are simply wrong

You are entitled to your opinion.

God bless!

 

[Mickey]

If it is literal, then the Catholics here are correct that it supports the idea of purgatory.

Nah.

The real deal is that you had your hat handed to you pretty quickly in this thread, and you don’t want to admit it.

LOL! I have shown nothing but patristic interpretation. You have come here with your odd theology with some strange narcisism to pit Catholics and Orthodox against one another. It is easy to see through your little games.

 

[Mickey]

The following comes from the Catholic Haydock Bible Commentary:

Ver. 19. There was a certain rich man, &c. By this history of the rich man and Lazarus, he declares that those who are placed in affluent circumstances, draw upon themselves a sentence of condemnation, if seeing their neighbour in want, they neglect to succour him. (St. Cyril, in Cat. Græc. patrum.) — He that hath the substance of this world, and shall see his brother in need, and shut up his bowels against him, how doth the charity of God abide in him? (1 John iii. 17.) A received tradition of the Jews informs us, that this Lazarus was a beggar, then at Jerusalem, suffering in the most wretched condition of poverty, and infirmity: him our Saviour introduces, to manifest more plainly the truth of what he had been saying (St. Cyril, in Cat. Græc. patrum.) — By this, we are not to understand that all poverty is holy, and the possession of riches criminal; but, as luxury is the disgrace of riches, so holiness of life is the ornament of poverty. (St. Ambrose) — A man may be reserved and modest in the midst of riches and honours, as he may be proud and avaricious in the obscurity of a poor and wretched life. — Divers interpreters have looked upon this as a true history; but what is said of the rich man seeing Lazarus, of his tongue, of his finger, cannot be literal: souls having no such parts. (Witham) — In this parable, which St. Ambrose takes to be a real fact, we have the name of the poor mendicant; but our Lord suppresses the name of the rich man, to signify that his name is blotted out of the book of life: besides, the rich man tells Abraham, that he has five brothers, who were probably still living; wherefore, to save their honour, our Lord named not their reprobated brother.

Ver. 22. Abraham’s bosom.[3] The place of rest, where the souls of the saints resided, till Christ had opened heaven by his death. (Challoner) — It was an ancient tradition of the Jews, that the souls of the just were conducted by angels into paradise. The bosom of Abraham (the common Father of all the faithful) was the place where the souls of the saints, and departed patriarchs, waited the arrival of their Deliverer. It was thither the Jesus went after his death; as it is said in the Creed, “he descended into hell,” to deliver those who were detained there, and who might at Christ’s ascension enter into heaven. (Calmet) See 1 Peter iii. 19. — “Many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham.” (Matthew viii. 11.)

Ver. 25. It appears from Philo, (de Execrat. p. 9, 37 b.) that the Jews not only acknowledged the existence of souls, and their state of happiness or misery after this life, but also that the souls of the saints and patriarchs interceded with God for their descendants, and obtained from them the succour they stood in need of. (Calmet)

Ver. 26. Between us and you is fixed a great chaos, or gulf; i.e. God’s justice has decreed, that the bad should forever be separated from the good. We may here take notice that the Latin and Greek word, (ver. 22) translated hell, even in the Protestant translation, cannot signify only the grave. (Witham)

Ver. 27. In this parable we are taught an important truth, viz. that we must not expect to learn our duty from the dead returning to life, nor by any other extraordinary or miraculous means, but from the revelation of truths, which have already been made known to us in the Scriptures, and from those to whom the tradition of the Church has been committed, as a most sacred deposit. These, say the Fathers, are the masters from whom we are to learn what we are to believe, and what to practise. (Calmet)

Sounds like hell to me.

God Bless,
Michael

Thank you Michael! Bravo!!!

 

[Mickey]

It doesn’t actually show the existence of Purgatory.

Correct.

 

[Mickey]

Letting you teach the Catholic faith to people

The need to ask the knowledgeable Catholics here to teach it to you. It is in line with Holy Orthodoxy.

 

[Mickey]

Now purgatory is really the reason that this was started.

I have been repeating over and over that this thread is not about purgatory. But it is you who insists that it is.

 

[Mickey]

I suspect if he really understood the Catholic faith he never would’ve left.

LOL! This is your best response?!?

 

[rinnie]

The need to ask the knowledgeable Catholics here to teach it to you. It is in line with Holy Orthodoxy.

Well then thats the big difference between us Mickey. I do not see where you are that knowledgeable. When I asked you a question you said you did not know. You saw my last post. Show me one thing in it that goes against the teaching of the Church. You were pretty quick to rag on me in the start of the Post. Show me where I did not prove my point. If they were not in Purgatory where was Abraham and Lazarus?

 

[dranzal]

Consider that this is the only “parable” in which Jesus specifically names a character.

There is a possibility that this was a real event, not a “parable”.

 

[Mickey]

The rich man isn’t exactly wailing and grinding his teeth described as gehenna.

When a man is a little hungry, he seeks meat and fish to satisfy his hunger; when a man is near to dying of hunger, he is thankful to get a handful of acorns to hold body and soul together. How indescribably terrible was the hell-fire in which this rich man was burning is clearly shown by the fact that he did not seek an ice-cube, or a bucket or even a cup of water, but only a dampened finger-tip! Only a drop of water on his finger-tip for his burning tongue!
St Nicholai of Ochrid

I would suggest based on the few words spoken by him, the rch man exibits faith, hope & Charity, virtues I always thought are absent in hell.

Come on steve! You know better than this. There is no faith, hope, or charity in this evil man. Are you kidding me? He is selfish because he knows that he is condemned. He is trying to save his own skin when it is too late.

I don’t have the sense the rich man is condemned.

He is condemned steve.

 

[Mickey]

I do not see where you are that knowledgeable.

Indeed, I am not. That is why a turn to the saints and church fathers.

You were pretty quick to rag on me in the start of the Post.

Rag? Settle down rinnie.

 

[Mickey]

I see the complete opposite.

Me too.

 

[rinnie]

When a man is a little hungry, he seeks meat and fish to satisfy his hunger; when a man is near to dying of hunger, he is thankful to get a handful of acorns to hold body and soul together. How indescribably terrible was the hell-fire in which this rich man was burning is clearly shown by the fact that he did not seek an ice-cube, or a bucket or even a cup of water, but only a dampened finger-tip! Only a drop of water on his finger-tip for his burning tongue!
St Nicholai of Ochrid

Come on steve! You know better than this. There is no faith, hope, or charity in this evil man. Are you kidding me? He is selfish because he knows that he is condemned. He is trying to save his own skin when it is too late.
He is condemned steve.

Then you tell me Mickey, Why did he want to warn his brothers?

That was for what reason to be mean. You are saying to want to warn his brothers not to make the mistakes he made, made the rich man evil. You are saying that was an evil act. Please show me your reasoning?

 

[dranzal]

27 He said, 'Then I beg you, father, send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they too come to this place of torment
I see no indication of selfishness in this request. Please explain where the rich man is being selfish here.

 

[rinnie]

Whatever you say kempy. I have saints and church fathers supporting my stance.

You have rinnie.

That was a nice thing to say. Show me Mickey where is one thing I am saying go against the belief of the Church and Saints?

 

[Mickey]

I read St. Nicholai’s commentary in your post #9. It gives his personal rationale regarding the rich man’s motivation in seeking help for his brothers.

And you give yours. I’ll go with St Nicholai.

But that’s all it is - his personal thoughts.

I read Scripture and commentary from this great saint and St John Chrysostom and the Melodist–and it becomes quite clear. On the other hand, your opinion stands alone and unsupported.

I can find nothing in the parable text to imply that motivation on the rich man’s part. However, if one holds that the rich man is in hell, it becomes necessary to find/propose an uncharitable motivation to explain the rich man’s concern.

Hello? He watched Lazarus slowly starve to death covered with sores for a lifetime. Do think that he is suddenly a charitable man with virtues as his tongue burns and he is tormented. Be serious.

I don’t have any problem with St. Nicholai giving that as an interpretation.

Thank you. And when taken with other support. It is quite convincing.

that to hold a contrary opinion would mean one was in error.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion.

We call it praying to the saints.

The rich man had his chance to pray and repent and do charitable and virtuous acts in the name of God by the grace of God. But now he is condemned. We cannot repent after we die.

 

[Mickey]

INotice the rich man is tormented in this flame but he desires to be merciful to his brothers.

There is no mercy involved here on the part of the rich man.

Again the soul in torments of the hell of the damned does not have mercy for those who are still alive on earth.

And neither does the rich man.

THE RICH MAN MUST BE IN SOME OTHER LOCATION

Yes–a place of torment.

THE RICH MAN IS SUFFERING MANY SEVERE TORMENTS THIS IS CALLED PURGATION

Are you sure that the RC doctrine of purgatory states that it is a place of severe torments? I do not think so. I am bouncing this statement back to the purgatory thread for comments by other Latin Catholics.

 

[rinnie]

I have been repeating over and over that this thread is not about purgatory. But it is you who insists that it is.

Mickey why should we argue about this. When the truth is at our hand. Simply go back to the Purgatory thread, it will show where I told you this Parable leads to purgatory. You said it does not. I said I would prove it. You said start a new thread. We did, it was all to prove this related to purgatory. Why are you denying this?

 

[rinnie]

There is no mercy involved here on the part of the rich man.
And neither does the rich man.
Yes–a place of torment.

Are you sure that the RC doctrine of purgatory states that it is a place of severe torments? I do not think so. I am bouncing this statement back to the purgatory thread for comments by other Latin Catholics.

Yes I am positive. Purgatory is not by any means heaven. The bible tells you it is a cleansing fire. It is not a fun place to be. But it is a CLEANSING FIRE. Not a ETERNAL FIRE. Big fat difference. Eternal means forever. Cleansing means until the soul is cleaned. No one has ever said how long that could be. For some very very little time. For other very very Long. That is why we pray for souls in purgatory constantly. We are taught as RC never to assume your loved one has made it completely. To always pray just in case. And pray for ALL SOULS IN PURGATORY. WHY ELSE WOULD WE PRAY FOR THE SOULS MICKEY IF THEY ARE IN HEAVEN. we have been through this Mickey time after time. Remember when I said this, you wanted to put me on your ignore list.