Lazarus and the Rich Man

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Mickey said:
I think not. LOL!
  1. Christ is telling a parable
  2. Christ wanted him to see.
    But it is an unbridgeable gap.
wink, wink nod, nod. 😉
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No, you cannot have it both ways Mickey. You just said Christ wanted him to see. But then you said the un-just will not see paradise. Now which one is it? Now who’s wrong here?:o
 
By using the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, St Clement of Alexandria warned the wealthy of the danger for their salvation.
 
dranzal said:
Please explain how the rich man is being selfish in this specific passage.
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Like Cain, the first thing he exbits if self-pity

8 Cain said to his brother Abel, “Let us go out in the field.” When they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him. 9 Then the LORD asked Cain, “Where is your brother Abel?” He answered, “I do not know. Am I my brother’s keeper?” 10 The LORD then said: “What have you done! Listen: your brother’s blood cries out to me from the soil! 11 Therefore you shall be banned from the soil that opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. 12 If you till the soil, it shall no longer give you its produce. You shall become a restless wanderer on the earth.” 13 Cain said to the LORD: "My punishment is too great to bear

22 When the poor man died, he was carried away by angels to the bosom of Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and from the netherworld, 14 where he was in torment, he raised his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he cried out, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me. Send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am suffering torment in these flames.’

Self-pity is a tale-tell sign that the party is guilty and not a saint. Come on people!
 
Chaldean_Rite said:
Like Cain, the first thing he exbits if self-pity

8 Cain said to his brother Abel, “Let us go out in the field.” When they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him. 9 Then the LORD asked Cain, “Where is your brother Abel?” He answered, “I do not know. Am I my brother’s keeper?” 10 The LORD then said: “What have you done! Listen: your brother’s blood cries out to me from the soil! 11 Therefore you shall be banned from the soil that opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. 12 If you till the soil, it shall no longer give you its produce. You shall become a restless wanderer on the earth.” 13 Cain said to the LORD: "My punishment is too great to bear

22 When the poor man died, he was carried away by angels to the bosom of Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and from the netherworld, 14 where he was in torment, he raised his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he cried out, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me. Send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am suffering torment in these flames.’

Self-pity is a tale-tell sign that the party is guilty and not a saint. Come on people!
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Thank you Chaldean. Like you, I cannot understand why this is so difficult for people. :confused:
 
Even the most virtuous occasionally engage in self pity. Hopefully we eventually and quickly see the bigger picture.

They don’t always then plead for mercy for those remaining.

I don’t misunderstand your point; I simply don’t think it is strong enough for us to assert with certainty his eternal status.
 
Even Jesus, prior to praying that the Father’s will be done, prayed, “let this cup pass from me.”
 
dranzal said:
Even the most virtuous occasionally engage in self pity.
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The rich man had no virtues. He was suffering in torments and looking for pity. Is that clear enough for you?
dranzal said:
They don’t always then plead for mercy for those remaining.
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Once you die, it is too late to plead for mercy and/or repent. That is why his request was not answered.
dranzal said:
I simply don’t think it is strong enough for us to assert with certainty his eternal status.
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It is extremely strong.
 
Mickey said:
Once you die, it is too late to plead for mercy and/or repent. That is why his request was not answered.
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But, for those who are still alive, it is possible to pray for a dead person so that at the moment of their death, their guardian angel could have touched their heart and seen the truth (of course this is praying for someone who you may think have been fallen, but not limited to them). And the only reason we can pray this way is because since the Cross is forever united to Jesus’ humanity and Divinity (one person), it extends backwards and fowards in time. In fact, that is the only real reason any of the prophets of old were even able to do any of the things they did without sanctifying grace being readily available.
 
Mickey said:
The rich man had no virtues. He was suffering in torments and looking for pity. Is that clear enough for you?
Once you die, it is too late to plead for mercy and/or repent. That is why his request was not answered.

It is extremely strong.
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No need to be insulting.

The story does not detail that he had no virtues. Most people at some point look for pity. That is completely clear to me.

To my knowledge, the damned do not concern themselves with the welfare of others.

Your assertion that the argument is extremely strong does not make it so, but congrats on your confidence.

The RCC, as far as I know, does not engage in recognition of the damned. Therefore, I doubt she has clearly and formally stated that the “rich man” is among them.
 
To dranzal:

I am so sorry about the loss of your beautiful angel Gabriel. He truly resembled an angel on this earth. I am saddened to tears that you have lost him and my humble prayers are with him and your family. I will light a candle at Church in front of the Icon of the Mother of God for all of you. I am certain that he is resting in the arms of our Saviour Jesus Christ.

God bless you.
 
Thank you.

I, too, have joy in the certainty that he is at home with our Father.
 
dranzal said:
No need to be insulting.
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It was not my intention. Forgive me if it came off that way. Church Tradition heavily favors the interpretation of the rich man asking for pity due to a situation he can do nothing about in the after-life. He lost his chance to repent or ask for mercy.

You are free to hold counter opinions.

God bless.
 
dranzal said:
The RCC, as far as I know, does not engage in recognition of the damned. Therefore, I doubt she has clearly and formally stated that the “rich man” is among them.
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True, we do not cannoize people in Hell.
 
rinnie said:
I asked Mickey he never did answer me. He never does just insults me really. But thats okay. MY point why did Jesus go for 3 days?

After his death on the cross, he went to release many of the souls held in the Bosom of Abraham. Since the creation of the world. This place of PURGATION was a place of waiting and cleansing. Entrance into heaven could not take place until the sacrificial death of Jesus opened the gates of heaven.

to redeem means to buy back and Jesus did that on the cross. He bought us means of salvation.

Purgatory is a part of Gods salvation.

Notice the rich man is tormented in this flame but he desires to be merciful to his brothers.

Again the soul in torments of the hell of the damned does not have mercy for those who are still alive on earth.

THE RICH MAN MUST BE IN SOME OTHER LOCATION BECAUSE WHERE DIVINE MERCY IS PRACTICED, BECAUSE THERE IS NO MERCY IN THE HELL OF THE DAMNED.

THE RICH MAN IS SUFFERING MANY SEVERE TORMENTS THIS IS CALLED PURGATION THE CLEANSING OF IMPURITY AND SIN IN PURGATORY.

INTERCESSORY PRAYER IS HOLY.

Purgation is found in the book of hebrews, Isaias 1:25
Luke 3:17
John 15:2
1 corithians 5:7
Proverbs My favorite one. BY MERCY AND FAITH SINS ARE PURGED AWAY AND BY THE FEAR OF THE LORD EVERYONE DECLINETH FROM EVIL.
TOBIAS 12:9
MARK 7;19
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Again may I repeat the souls of the damned do not show Mercy on people on earth. To say that it does goes against scripture. To have Gods Mercy means you have Grace. Grace is what gave him the Mercy he was showing. .
 
One thing we can all agree on is that, through this story, Jesus is also telling us something about our mental abilities after death.

Some people think we cease to be individuals with personalities and memories. They think we lose all sense of ourselves in relation to each other and become mindless members of the Beatific Vision. They make it sound almost like the Borg (star trek).

In this story, we see strong evidence of post death individuality including memories.
 
I was taught that no one can judge another. We are not God and no one can say what God will or will not do. Only God knows the heart of a man. We are taught as Roman Catholics to always pray for the dead, because no one know Gods Mercy. Except Mickey of course:D
 
Chaldean_Rite said:
True, we do not cannoize people in Hell.
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Then again, this is not a specific person so I doubt that rule applies. He is nameless because he has lost his identity in Hell, whereas in Heaven, we are each given a new name.
 
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