Lazarus and the Rich Man

[rinnie]

yes rinnie, I better understand. what you’ve written has brought to mind the fundamental diference of the afterlife before and after Christ. I hope it helps in understanding why there is a problem when a middle state is given boundaries before christ’s decent.
It’s the same reason why knowing good and evil while in a state of becoming made the eternal life unavailable to us untill salvation is complete.

Before Christ the afterlife is defined by the state of human souls.
Abraham is the soul that certain union with God for humanity can be found. There is no other certain boundaries.

After Christ the afterlife is defined by God and human souls have a new boundary established by the necessity to perfect the unbaptized children of Abraham stained by forgiven sin.

Before Christ the afterlife consisted of souls seperated from flesh in various states of disposition in relation to God. These states of existence experienced by souls seperated from bodies defined the boundaries within what we call sheol hades the bosom of Abraham. There indeed is a lowest and most tormented state and a highest most relatively blissfull state. There is only one state we can be certain about that is not condemned and that is those in a state of disposition that places them amongst the ‘dust of the earth’ that Abraham counts as children of his faith. All other souls are suffering condemnation albeit in every shade from light to darkest black. A defined boundary among the condemned only complicates and confuses our understanding because it requires a kind of judgement that we can’t make. ‘If’ there were some sort of transformation of soul among souls not counted among Abrahams children it couldn’t be change that could define a boundary that one could say 'these souls are experiencing condemnation but are bound for Abrahams bosom. If it could then they could expect heaven and experience the bliss of knowing their eternal destiny and be said to be in Abrahams bosom.

May the angels of the Lord protect you.

Thank you and I am seeing now how you are saying the middle state was given degrees and how one was more or less at the highest and one was at the lowest. But getting back to really the main point, do you agree that the middle state did indeed exist then, and there is a middle state that does indeed exist today. That is the whole point of this is to prove that the state indeed exists. And do you believe that again to my point that when we die if we die with venial sin, that we can still go to purgatory, which is still the middle state and be cleansed thru the fires to be freed from our sin. Which is a middle state which we call purgatory, and we can indeed pray our loved ones out of it. Or do you like Mickey agree that Purgatory is again just in my mind.

 

[Mickey]

The Blessed Virgin Mary revealed to the children that those in hell rejoice when other souls fall to their doom and join them in hell.

This has nothing to do with the parable. And as I have already informed you, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has stated many times that these apparitions have been private revelations and belief in them is subject to personal choice and/or devotion.

This means that the concept of those in hell rejoicing when other souls fall to their doom and join them in hell does NOT conflict with church teaching.

Is this an infallible statement? Does Fatima expand on Catholic doctrine? Show me.

Therefore he can not be in hell.

Wrong. He is condemned.

If he is, then Church teaching is wrong and they errored in saying that the message from Our Lady was worthy of belief.

What strange logic you have. You are saying that the Catholic Church has erred if they do not adhere to the odd interpretation of sir knight?

 

[Mickey]

The Catechism explains:
Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell”—Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek—because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”: “It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell.” Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him (CCC 633; cf. Roman Catechism I, 6, 3).

Amen Randy. Now we have some Catholic Church teaching here. What say you sir knight. Will you brush off the CCC as a fallible opinion?

 

[Mickey]

**Hi Mickey, **

I find my self in complete agreement with you against Sir Knight! Hmmm, And I am a cradle Catholic! I also believe that Sir Knight has twisted the meaning to fit his odd little interpretation of the parable.

God Bless

Thank you my brother in Christ. God bless you.

P.S.–I love Fr John Corapi, and I’ll bet you he says that the rich man is condemned.

 

[Mickey]

I am perplexed that a Catholic would reject outright reasonable explanations and so many others here, sound catholic views from famous doctors , fathers , mystics and posters here in favor of an opinion of what the visionaries of Fatima saw.

I am perplexed also. I have met so many knowledegeable Catholics here over the years, but I have never encountered the outright rejection of saints and Church fathers.

 

[Mickey]

That of the Rich Man expressing concern over his brothers and compassion being a grace from God and those in hell being forever cut off from God’s graces.

Do not confuse the rich man’s self-pity for grace filled compassion. :nope:

 

[rinnie]

No offense Ben, but if you are going to try to convince me Purgatory does not exist, like Mickey you will never do it. I believe as I always have that we can die with venial sins and get into heaven.

Again I was so caught up in proving the holding place that I let the degrees lets say pass over me. But I also believe that Purgatory has also the same degrees, The only difference would be of course Hell, it would not be in Purgatory. But I still believe that when we die we all have some kind of sin. Unless we just came back from confession. And I am in no way and Sir Knight never in any way ever said we do not have to live according to the ways of Christ to get into heaven. But I was taught that we had to live right, and confess our sins and yes do our penance here. But I was also taught that in the end, we could mess up and still rely on Gods Mercy and thats what purgatory was all about.

I was also taught that of course we could not be evil all of our life and then when we meet God and get judged say Hey Im real sorry about that, because it would not work anyway. Because first God knows we would be telling a lie, and second if we were evil all our life and never accepted Jesus and turned away from him we would do it here also.

And sorry but too many questions but another one. Why in the OT would they pray for their loved ones, unless of course you agree that there were degrees that could be prayed out of (venial sin) as we also believe today.

Sorry more questions but at least you are helping me and not calling me names like here earlier. I will admit I do not know all I need to know of my faith either, I can get confused, but I hope you don’t call me a anti-catholic for not quite understanding the difference between the state then and today if you do agree that purgatory exist.

I still have some things that I can’t see yet but we will start there.

 

[Mickey]

For those who are following the patristic nature of this thread I have more (this is not for sir knight since he does not accept patristiics).

I will start with the great Orthodox saint once again, St Nikolai Velimirovic, who states that the rich man has been removed from the book of life:

By this omission of the rich man’s name, He (the Lord) revealed a heavenly mystery. The name of such a rich man will be unknown in heaven. It will not be mentioned among the angels and saints; it will be blotted out of the Book of Life.
St Nikolai Velimirovic

Now let us look at the comments of two great pre-schism saints:

**“We must observe also, that among the heathen the names of poor men are more likely to be known than of rich. Now our Lord mentions the name of the poor, but not the name of the rich, because God knows and approves the humble, but not the proud.” **
**(St Gregory the Great, Pope of **Rome-on Lazarus and the Rich Man)

"The Lord gave no name to the rich man in this parable because such a man is not worthy to be remembered by God by name. As the Lord says, through the prophet, 'nor will I make remembrance of their names through My lips." (Psalm 15:3) But the Lord mentions the poor man by name, for the names of the righteous are inscribed in the book of life"
**(Blessed Theophylact) **

 

[Mickey]

Ah, here is a superb one!

**"This discourse concerning the rich man and Lazarus was written after the manner of a comparison in a parable, to declare that they who abound in earthly riches, unless they will relieve the necessities of the poor, shall meet with a heavy condemnation.” **
**(St Cyril of **Jerusalem)

 

[rinnie]

Do not confuse the rich man’s self-pity for grace filled compassion. :nope:

Randy I have this question for you. How could anyone make a statement as such. Would only our Lord be able to make such a comment. How could any of us know if the rich man was indeed honest in this statement or was not. What my point is would this not be making a judgement of another’s conscience. And even thought this is indeed a parable would that not be playing God?

What I am saying I see now that indeed there are levels, but do you feel that you could indeed make a comment like that?

 

[Mickey]

How could anyone make a statement as such. Would only our Lord be able to make such a comment. How could any of us know if the rich man was indeed honest in this statement or was not. What my point is would this not be making a judgement of another’s conscience. And even thought this is indeed a parable would that not be playing God?

I have been informed privately that you were accusing me of being judgemental, so I had to take you off my ignore list to defend myself. Did you not say that you were leaving this thread until after the superbowl?

Who am I judging, rinnie? The rich man? Are you accusing me of judging the rich man? He has a thirst that cannot be quenched. He cannot cross the chasm. Abraham and Lazarus cannot help him. He is condemned rinnie!!! Do you understand? He is condemned!!! It is obvious from the parable that he is left only with self-pity by attempting to get help for his brothers. But does he get help? No, no, no! He is condemned!

Saints, Church Fathers, Popes, and the CCC indicate that he is condemned. Are they being judgemental? Are they “playing God”?

Please stop with your accusations–it is not very becoming.

May God forgive you for accusing people of “playing God”.

The rich man’s thirst is never quenched and points to the wretched state of the unrighteous in Hell, “where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.” **(Mark 9:48) **

 

[Realcatholicgk]

I have been informed privately that you were accusing me of being judgemental, so I had to take you off my ignore list to defend myself. Did you not say that you were leaving this thread until after the superbowl?
** Hi Mickey,

Don’t ignore rinnie, she means well. Just hot headed! **

Who am I judging, rinnie? The rich man? Are you accusing me of judging the rich man? He has a thirst that cannot be quenched. He cannot cross the chasm. Abraham and Lazarus cannot help him. He is condemned rinnie!!! Do you understand? He is condemned!!! It is obvious from the parable that he is left only with self-pity by attempting to get help for his brothers. But does he get help? No, no, no! He is condemned!

**What she doesn’t see is she “judged” you just because you didn’t say IMO. Then she turns around and does the exact same thing to you. **

Saints, Church Fathers, Popes, and the CCC indicate that he is condemned. Are they being judgemental? Are they “playing God”?

Please stop with your accusations–it is not very becoming.

May God forgive you for accusing people of “playing God”.

**She does have a temper

God Bless**

The rich man’s thirst is never quenched and points to the wretched state of the unrighteous in Hell, “where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.” **(Mark 9:48) **

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Thank you my brother in Christ. God bless you.

P.S.–I love Fr John Corapi, and I’ll bet you he says that the rich man is condemned.

**Hi Mickey,

I know what he would tell Sir Knight
’
“You need to know your faith. You cannot give what you do not have.” - Ft Corapi (On the need for Catholics to study and learn Sacred Scripture and the Catechism of the Catholic Church)

To rinnie, Everything we are taugh isn’t necessary for salvation. Small things aren’t important. Even when our sins are forgiven. There is still a “price that must be paid” we will still enter Purgatory to be made clean. Read the CCC it may help you understand the truth. Remember as a Catholic, you must, by faith, accept the teachings of our church. Not what you have been taught. I do hope your team wins! **

 

[Mickey]

**“You need to know your faith. You cannot give what you do not have.” - Fr Corapi **

 

[rinnie]

Realcatholicgk:
Hi RC. No come on give me a break here. I am really trying to see, and trying to learn alot here. And am getting alot of great responses. I have alot of questions and hope to find the answers.

But how is asking a question, you can read it again, making a judgement.

Let me state my case, be fair. Let me rephrase it another way. Because if I say one single word wrong God forbid.

Here is my question of many, you can answer me, Do you feel that you or I could say that even if the rich man is indeed in hell, and never getting out, that he was not sincere in his plea for his brothers.

Now go back and read the statement, to be on the safe side, thats all I ask?

 

[Mickey]

Do you feel that you or I could say that even if the rich man is indeed in hell, and never getting out, that he was not sincere in his plea for his brothers.

Yes. Because he is in hell and never getting out. His plea was unanswered and his thirst is unquenchable.

Now that was easy wasn’t it?

 

[rinnie]

**Hi Mickey,

I know what he would tell Sir Knight
’
“You need to know your faith. You cannot give what you do not have.” - Ft Corapi (On the need for Catholics to study and learn Sacred Scripture and the Catechism of the Catholic Church)

To rinnie, Everything we are taugh isn’t necessary for salvation. Small things aren’t important. Even when our sins are forgiven. There is still a “price that must be paid” we will still enter Purgatory to be made clean. Read the CCC it may help you understand the truth. Remember as a Catholic, you must, by faith, accept the teachings of our church. Not what you have been taught. I do hope your team wins! **

I know you do Love, but I swear to you RC its not about winning it is really about the truth. ANd the truth no matter what, and the whole point leads back to one road. Purgatory. And why we pray for our loved ones.

 

[Mickey]

and the whole point leads back to one road. Purgatory.

The parable has nothing to do with purgatory.

 

[Mickey]

I found another quote from the great Church Father St John Chrysostom:

"He (the rich man) died then indeed in body, but his soul was dead before. For he did none of the works of the soul. All that warmth which issues from the love of our neighbor had fled, and he was more dead than his body. But no one is spoken of as having ministered to the rich man’s burial as to that of Lazarus. Because when he lived pleasantly in the broad road, he had many busy flatterers; when he came to his end, all forsook him. For it simply follows, and was buried in hell. But his soul also when living was buried, enshrined in its body as it were in a tomb."
**(St John Chrysostom) **

 

[paul_c]

Hi RC. No come on give me a break here. I am really trying to see, and trying to learn alot here. And am getting alot of great responses. I have alot of questions and hope to find the answers.

But how is asking a question, you can read it again, making a judgement.

Let me state my case, be fair. Let me rephrase it another way. Because if I say one single word wrong God forbid.

Here is my question of many, you can answer me, Do you feel that you or I could say that even if the rich man is indeed in hell, and never getting out, that he was not sincere in his plea for his brothers.

Now go back and read the statement, to be on the safe side, thats all I ask?

I think the problem here is that you seem to think that just because the Rich man was sincere in his plea for his brothers that he was not deserving of Hell. Where is it taught that the condemned have no redeeming features? In fact, everyone I’ve ever met has some redeeming qualities, but in the end they probably all will not be saved. In fact, Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount that you must love your enemies, explaining that even the tax collectors loved those that loved them, so why should that be credited as righteous? This is all the rich man did after all, loved those that loved him.