Lazarus and the Rich Man

[rinnie]

A new stage of the Churchs teaching was brought about by the dogmatic bull Bendictus Deus whch Pope Benddict XII promulgated on 29 January 1336. In this bull the Pope taught that in the time after Christ’s passion death and ascension into heaven the souls of those departed persons who stand in no further need of purification do no have to linger in the INTERMEDIATE STATE.

The intermediate State back then was called Hades, Where the dead waited resurrection.

I knew I would find it and tie it into Lazarus and the rich man!

Pope John Paul ll calls the Treasury of Souls, or WAITING beneath the throne of God AND the throne of God and of the just and especially martyrs being received into Abrahams Bosom, the thought of tarryng of souls beneath the throne of God all these are Present in the NT TRADITION.

In Lazarus and the rich man Lazarus was received into the Bosom of Abraham. ( intermediate State, now Purgatory.)

I knew it, the only different is When Jesus came he opened heaven and the Souls could be released.

Mickey Please push the ignore button and leave me on it. I am not going to argue with you. The first paragraph I wrote was a quote from the book. I am sorry you have a problem with it.

I will find the quote also about penance and purgatory for you. Give me some time. I will give you the quote and the page number.

 

[rinnie]

You may want to add Father Corapi to your ignore button also.

Last week on Catholic TV

Quote: Purgatory is full admission to TEMPORAL SIN. : You can pay me now, or pay me later. Pay until the last penny is spent! Unquote. He said but you will pay me! This is what I have been taught all of my life, and it sure has not changed yet!

 

[Mickey]

Mickey Please push the ignore button and leave me on it. I am not going to argue with you. The first paragraph I wrote was a quote from the book. I am sorry you have a problem with it.

I will find the quote also about penance and purgatory for you. Give me some time. I will give you the quote and the page number.

Which book are you referring to? I quoted the actual papal bull.

I am going to recommend this thread be closed because it has served its purpose.

 

[Mickey]

You may want to add Father Corapi to your ignore button also.

Last week on Catholic TV

Quote: Purgatory is full admission to TEMPORAL SIN. : You can pay me now, or pay me later. Pay until the last penny is spent! Unquote. He said but you will pay me! This is what I have been taught all of my life, and it sure has not changed yet!

Clamp down on your ego please. I listen to Fr Corapi often. He has never said that the parable of Lazarus and the rich man proves the doctrine of purgatory. Of course he believes in purgatory–he is a Catholic priest. I will say it for the 1000th time–I am not here to disprove the doctrine of purgatory, but you just can’t seem to get that through your head.

 

[rinnie]

You said there is no penance after death. I said yes there is purgatory.

Page 124 quote: As far as the story of Lazarus is concerned we may admit that the parables doctrinal content lies in its moral, a warning against the danger of wealth rather then in the decriptions of Lazarus in Abrahams bosom and dives in hell. AND YET manifestly the teller DOES regard these evocations as appropriate IMAGES OF THE REAL FUTURE OF MAN. In fact the text CLEARLY TESTIFIES to the fact that the earliest Christianity shared in the faith of contemportary Judiasm about the beyond. unquote.

Then on page125 Quote Perhaps we may remind oursleves in this CONNECTION of the new use of the image of BOSOM which we find in St Johns Gospel Unquote.

Mickey why are you saying this is my ego. Everything I said on this post was what I was taught. Its from my great leaders. I am only learning like everyone else. My point was then and still stands there is a middle place and Lazarus and the rich man were there. So indeed this parable ties into purgatory. We still share the faith of Judiasm about the beyond. We just believe that some people that already have been cleansed from their sin were released to heaven. We still believe in the state of being cleansed from our sins the way the Judiasm did. It existed then, which was my point, and purgatory still exists now, which is still my point.

 

[Mickey]

You said there is no penance after death. I said yes there is purgatory.

Purgatory talks of a purification. We cannot repent or do pennance after we die. Must I quote you the CCC for the umpteenth time?

Page 124 quote: As far as the story of Lazarus is concerned we may admit that the parables doctrinal content lies in its moral, a warning against the danger of wealth rather then in the decriptions of Lazarus in Abrahams bosom and dives in hell. AND YET manifestly the teller DOES regard these evocations as appropriate IMAGES OF THE REAL FUTURE OF MAN. In fact the text CLEARLY TESTIFIES to the fact that the earliest Christianity shared in the faith of contemportary Judiasm about the beyond. unquote.

This says nothing of the doctrine of purgatory in relation to the parable.

Then on page125 Quote Perhaps we may remind oursleves in this CONNECTION of the new use of the image of BOSOM which we find in St Johns Gospel Unquote.

Nothing about purgatory in relation to the parable.

Mickey why are you saying this is my ego.

For some reason, you are so adamant on this parable being about purgatory and the ability to repent after death, that you are reading things into various sources that are not there. We all suffer from ego.

Its from my great leaders.

Your great teachers are the Church Fathers. And I have already shown you in abundance what they taught–yet you ignore them.

I am only learning like everyone else.

Amen, my sister in Christ. Learning is a life long process.

So indeed this parable ties into purgatory…

It does not. No where is that taught by Scripture or Sacred Tradition.

 

[rinnie]

Purgatory talks of a purification. We cannot repent or do pennance after we die. Must I quote you the CCC for the umpteenth time?
This says nothing of the doctrine of purgatory in relation to the parable.
Nothing about purgatory in relation to the parable.
For some reason, you are so adamant on this parable being about purgatory and the ability to repent after death, that you are reading things into various sources that are not there. We all suffer from ego.

Your great teachers are the Church Fathers. And I have already shown you in abundance what they taught–yet you ignore them.
Amen, my sister in Christ. Learning is a life long process.
It does not. No where is that taught by Scripture or Sacred Tradition.

I am going to try one more time. Please read carefully. The Ot and the NT talks of a state of cleansing. We still believe in that STATE OF CLEANSING. Hades was a place of WAITING AND CLEANSING. Purgatory is also a state of cleansing. Purgatory is final cleansing, hades was what the OT referred to as final cleansing. See the connection. We pray for our dead the same as the OT did. Why because we still feel they have a chance. If they are in Heaven they do not need our prayers, If they are in hell we cannot help them. In the OT they also prayed for their dead. They also felt that they could have been in the middle place. See again how it ties in again.

Middle place, Middle State, regardless what you want to call it there is a middle stage in the game. That is how they are both connected. Do you understand it now. The parable of Lazarus proves there is a middle state. He was there, Abraham was there. I am not even going to touch on the rich man right now. ITs not worth it. If I am wrong where was Lazarus and Abraham before Jesus opened Heaven?

 

[rinnie]

The identification of purgatory with the Churchs penance in Cyprian and Clement is important for drawing our attention to the fact that the root of the Christian doctrine of Purgatory is the christological GRACE OF PENANCE.

It is not my teaching Mickey. It is the teaching of the Church.

 

[Mickey]

I am going to try one more time.

You have never one time responded to the Church Fathres or the quotes of Pope John Paul II, yet you continue to try to prove a point that is non-existent.

 

[paul_c]

Mickey,
I do need to take exception to this statement:

Purgatory talks of a purification. We cannot repent or do pennance after we die. Must I quote you the CCC for the umpteenth time?

The church clearly teaches that you can do pennance after death. Here is the CCC discussion on Purgatory:

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God. The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.

 

[Mickey]

The identification of purgatory with the Churchs penance in Cyprian and Clement is important for drawing our attention to the fact that the root of the Christian doctrine of Purgatory is the christological GRACE OF PENANCE.

Dear dear rinnie. If you think that St Cyprian and St Clement write in support of the doctrine of purgatory–God bless you. There is an ongoing vibrant thread about purgatory on this forum.

These two great Church Fathers certainly do not say that the parable of discussion is a proof for purgatory.

 

[rinnie]

Dear dear rinnie. If you think that St Cyprian and St Clement write in support of the doctrine of purgatory–God bless you. There is an ongoing vibrant thread about purgatory on this forum.

These two great Church Fathers certainly do not say that the parable of discussion is a proof for purgatory.

Sorry Mickey just repeating what the book of our Pope said. You can take it for what You want.

But back to the point of this discussion I feel I have showed where Lazarus is indeed in the middle state. Still waiting for your reply on that one. Where do you say he is?

 

[Mickey]

Mickey,
I do need to take exception to this statement:

The church clearly teaches that you can do pennance after death. Here is the CCC discussion on Purgatory:

Wrong. Nothing you have quoted states your exception. The Church teaches that those still alive can pray for the dead and that sins can be forgiven, but it most certainly does not say that you can repent and do pennance after you have died. No other Catholic here (except perhaps rinnie) would agree with you.

CCC
[393](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/393.htm’) It is the *irrevocable *character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgivable. “There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, **just as there is no repentance for men after death.”**272

 

[Mickey]

Sorry Mickey just repeating what the book of our Pope said.

And it does not say what you think it is trying to say.

You can take it for what You want.

Here is what Pope John Paul II says: For the umpteenth time:
**Today’s Gospel offers the parable of the “rich man” and poor Lazarus (cf. Lk 16: 19-31). The rich man lives in opulence and luxury oblivious of the beggar lying at his door. But after they die their fate is reversed, **Lazarus is carried away to heaven, whilst the rich man falls into the netherworld of torments.
Pope John Paul II

Where do you say he is?

Here is what Pope John Paul II says: For the umpteenth time:
**Today’s Gospel offers the parable of the “rich man” and poor Lazarus (cf. Lk 16: 19-31). The rich man lives in opulence and luxury oblivious of the beggar lying at his door. But after they die their fate is reversed, **Lazarus is carried away to heaven, whilst the rich man falls into the netherworld of torments.
Pope John Paul II

 

[rinnie]

Wrong. Nothing you have quoted states your exception. The Church teaches that those still alive can pray for the dead and that sins can be forgiven, but it most certainly does not say that you can repent and do pennance after you have died. No other Catholic here (except perhaps rinnie) would agree with you.

CCC
[393](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/393.htm’) It is the *irrevocable *character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgivable. “There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, **just as there is no repentance for men after death.”**272

Please read the first line, They would not accept Jesus Christ. It was their choice. The Angels were full aware of the sin they were doing. They had full knowledge. They sinned against the Holy Spirit. ITs over. Irrevocable means thet would not take it back. they made their choice. It was not a DEFECT in DIVINE MERCY. IT was their DEFECT.

 

[rinnie]

Here is what Pope John Paul II says: For the umpteenth time:
Today’s Gospel offers the parable of the “rich man” and poor Lazarus (cf. Lk 16: 19**-31). The rich man lives in opulence and luxury oblivious of the beggar lying at his door. But after they die their fate is reversed, **Lazarus is carried away to heaven, whilst the rich man falls into the netherworld of torments.
Pope John Paul II

Here is what Pope John Paul II says: For the umpteenth time:
Today’s Gospel offers the parable of the “rich man” and poor Lazarus (cf. Lk 16: 19**-31). The rich man lives in opulence and luxury oblivious of the beggar lying at his door. But after they die their fate is reversed, **Lazarus is carried away to heaven, whilst the rich man falls into the netherworld of torments.
Pope John Paul II

I am not saying Lazaus was not carried away to heaven. I am asking you before Jesus opened up heaven where was Lazarus. The Pope did not say where Lazarus was at that moment did he. We all know that Jesus when died that Lazarus was getting in. For goodness sakes no one said Lazarus was not getting in. Where was Lazarus before Jesus opened up heaven? Quit by passing the question. We call this the middle state. The Pope says so himself. Pope John Paul II also believes in the middle state. Please show me again where Pope John Paul II says that there was no middle state then and also in not one now?

 

[Mickey]

Please read the first line, They would not accept Jesus Christ. It was their choice. The Angels were full aware of the sin they were doing. They had full knowledge. They sinned against the Holy Spirit. ITs over. Irrevocable means thet would not take it back. they made their choice. It was not a DEFECT in DIVINE MERCY. IT was their DEFECT.

Oh please rinnie. We have been through this before. Read it all in context: What does this mean to you? just as there is no repentance for men after death."

---

It is cut and dry. No where else in the CCC or Scripture or Holy Tradition can you show that man can repent after he dies. Nowhere!

 

[Mickey]

I am not saying Lazaus was not carried away to heaven.

Good then you agree with Sacred Tradition.

Where was Lazarus before Jesus opened up heaven?

** …Lazarus is carried away to heaven, whilst the rich man falls into the netherworld of torments.**
Pope John Paul II

 

[rinnie]

Good then you agree with Sacred Tradition.

** …Lazarus is carried away to heaven, whilst the rich man falls into the netherworld of torments.**
Pope John Paul II

The Pope made that comment after Jesus opened up heaven. That is why he says heaven and not the bosom of Abraham.

Now show me where does the Pope John Paul II say that we deny the bosom of Abraham, and where does the Pope say we deny Purgatory.

And Does Pope Benedict not say that there was a place of purgation in the OT and Still is today in the NT and ties the parable as proof?

 

[rinnie]

Let me make this easier for you. Where is the Bosom of Abraham?