R
- Status
R
Realcatholicgk
Guest
**Why do you avoid this question. Where was Lazarus being carried away from. Where was Abraham. I know I know I just made it to the ignore list again.
Rinnie,
You say that like it is a bad thing! I am on many ignore lists.
I am hoping to break a record if there is one! I am going to ignore myself and see if it works!God Bless**
R
rinnie
Guest
What I quoted you on Pope Benedict Mickey.
R
rinnie
Guest
Its okay paul, He ignores it anyway, He know what the Catholic site says also about how when Jesus opened Heaven it changed what heaven is today. Its okay. You know and I know what Pope John Paul II meant,
You did good buddy, and if you get that Book it explains it all from Pope Benedict. Its shows us everything, and explains the parable pretty well. Well for now so long.
R
rinnie
Guest
I would never ignore you my Love. You are still my favorite!**
Rinnie,
You say that like it is a bad thing! I am on many ignore lists.
God Bless**
M
Mickey
Guest
This has been offered before Paul. Where have you been? Pope Benedict is not saying that this parable is a proof of purgatory. He does relate it to a different middle state as taught in early Judaism. However, he seems to be at odds with the teaching of Pope John Paul II and the Church Fathers. Is this encyclical considered to be infallible?
Nevertheless, he is not saying that the parable is a proof for purgatory.
M
Mickey
Guest
Pope John Paul II meant what he said and I agree with him. Pope Benedict may allude to a development of the RC doctrine of purgatory, but he does not state that this parable is showing said doctrine. So you are back to square one. If you would like to use Pope Benendict XVI to further your argument, that is okay. I am still using John Paul II and a myriad of Church Fathers to which you will not respond. All you keep saying is that Pope John Paul II meant something else. LOL!
R
rinnie
Guest
Paul, I feel I do have to explain it to you though, the way it was explained to me. Also the Catholic site has it.
But here it is, The Jewish belief is that the departed go back to the Lord they do not share our CONCEPT of heaven.
Lazarus was at the spiritual place reserved for Israel after physical death before heaven. But with the Lord at some level,
You must remember the Jewish still reject Jesus, so of course do not believe in the Ressurrection.
So that is why Pope John Paul II was explaining to us Lazarus was indeed in Heaven, but of course not the heaven we know that Jesus opened up to us.
I really don’t know about the Jewish faith, but they would never except this idea of Jesus opening up heaven and to release the souls because they again do not believe he was the Son of God. Hope I explained it okay to you. If you have any other questions I can show you someone who can really help you better than I.
And again RC my Love, Behave yourself
P.S, I am heading for you joke site. Got to do Mother and Daughter day today so probally tommorow. Figured since I can’t torture Mickey today got to get her.
See Ya Mickey! My little Mouse
But here it is, The Jewish belief is that the departed go back to the Lord they do not share our CONCEPT of heaven.
Lazarus was at the spiritual place reserved for Israel after physical death before heaven. But with the Lord at some level,
You must remember the Jewish still reject Jesus, so of course do not believe in the Ressurrection.
So that is why Pope John Paul II was explaining to us Lazarus was indeed in Heaven, but of course not the heaven we know that Jesus opened up to us.
I really don’t know about the Jewish faith, but they would never except this idea of Jesus opening up heaven and to release the souls because they again do not believe he was the Son of God. Hope I explained it okay to you. If you have any other questions I can show you someone who can really help you better than I.
And again RC my Love, Behave yourself
P.S, I am heading for you joke site. Got to do Mother and Daughter day today so probally tommorow. Figured since I can’t torture Mickey today got to get her.See Ya Mickey! My little Mouse
M
Mickey
Guest
Yes. It is called the Bosom of Abraham, paradise, or heaven.
I see. You are his interpreter now. John Paul II was talking about that different heaven. ROFL!
You do not torture me Rin. Once I began to understand you, I realized that I kinda like you.
M
Mickey
Guest
One of the most graphic parables of Christ (Luke 16), describing the beggar at the rich man’s table. The name Lazarus (Hebrew: God hath helped) has become synonymous the world over and for all time with misery in any form. The rich man is not named because, as Saint Cyril remarks, God’s way of treating the rich who are heartless is: “nor will I be mindful of their names by my lips” (Psalm 15). The rich man feasts sumptuously every day, Lazarus gets scarcely enough scraps from the table to satisfy hunger; the dogs, a name for filthy animals, lick his sores. Lazarus dies and is carried by angels into Abraham’s bosom, a name for heaven; the rich man dies and was buried, in hell, as the text implies. Then come the pleadings of the rich man to Father Abraham to send Lazarus to cool hIs tongue with a fingertip dipped in water. He is refused. He pleads that his five brethren may be warned by sending Lazarus to tell them of his torment. He is reminded they have ample warning in Moses and the prophets. He insists on a message from the dead. He is told: “If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead.” The parable is a lesson on the enormity of injustice, the evils of inequality in the distribution of this world’s goods, the heartlessness that too often develops from the acquisition of wealth, and the assumption of the rich man that money can command anything, even a special revelation if necessary.
New Catholic Dictionary
New Catholic Dictionary
P
paul_c
Guest
Mickey,
what we have clearly established is that there is debate among theologians on whether this parable is referencing heaven, hell, purgatory or some other third state. Benedict XVI says it refers to a third place that came to be know as Purgatory. Your most recent quote from the Catholic Dictionary suggest that they are in heaven and hell. So what are we to make of this? I think it means that we really don’t have full understanding of the third place, although we know it exists, as does heaven and hell.
We also know is that it doesn’t really matter in terms of the main teaching of the parable. We know that Rich man is condemned for his lack of love for his neighbor, who is now in relative bliss, regardless of the definition of their current resting places. We also know that the those who don’t believe in the prophets won’t beleive someone who rises from the dead.
what we have clearly established is that there is debate among theologians on whether this parable is referencing heaven, hell, purgatory or some other third state. Benedict XVI says it refers to a third place that came to be know as Purgatory. Your most recent quote from the Catholic Dictionary suggest that they are in heaven and hell. So what are we to make of this? I think it means that we really don’t have full understanding of the third place, although we know it exists, as does heaven and hell.
We also know is that it doesn’t really matter in terms of the main teaching of the parable. We know that Rich man is condemned for his lack of love for his neighbor, who is now in relative bliss, regardless of the definition of their current resting places. We also know that the those who don’t believe in the prophets won’t beleive someone who rises from the dead.
M
Mickey
Guest
Paul,
What we have is consistent teaching that the parable has nothing to do with purgatory. After hundreds of posts, the closest implication is an encyclical by Pope Benedict XVII which makes a comparison of Hebraic middle states to the post schism RC doctrine of purgatory. This is very far from showing that the parable is telling us about “purgatory”. However, there is a vast amount of patristic support that tells us otherwise. And of course, as we have pointed out, the parable has many other lessons.
If you are inclined to believe that the parable is showing you a glimpse of purgatory, you are free to believe whatever your conscience dictates to you.
I have enjoyed our discussion.
God bless,
Mickey
P
paul_c
Guest
I agree with you on these points. I think this is one of those cases that people try to stretch scripture a little too far to make their cases. I don’t think this parable was meant to teach about Purgatory either. .
J
jmcrae
Guest
Actually no - it is we who do penance, on their behalf, when we collect Indulgences for them. It is by means of our penances that we do on their behalf, that they are purified. They cannot do their own penances in Purgatory.
That’s why we have Indulgences.
M
Mickey
Guest
Yes. That is what I was taught as a Roman Catholic.
P
paul_c
Guest
That’s not how I understand it at all. Their time in purgatory is actually their pennance. Our prayers and indulgences reduce the pennance they need to do themselves. We are sharing their pennance, in effect.
M
Mickey
Guest
I have asked different people for references on this. Do you have any?
M
Mickey
Guest
It seems that jmcrae is correct on this one:
CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH (PURGATORY)
1032
This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:
S
steve_b
Guest
If it did it would have been over 400 posts ago. http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4703718&postcount=401Hi Paul,
**Well I guess that ends this Thread! :compcoff: **
**
Bottomline, Parables have multiple layers. JPII took a post resurrection view. In a short homily he gave, a view which has broad applicable today.
Benedict XVI took the position of how the Jew would have understood the parable, based on THEIR definitions of terms when Jesus gave the parable. Therefore, there is no contradiction between JPII and Benedict XVI view as Mickey is suggesting.
Benedict reflects on this in his encyclical Spe Salvi. Jews understand Gehenna, as a place of torment AND purification but It is temporary NOT permanent which lasts no more than 1 year. That’s why Jews pray for the dead for 1 year after they die, even for the wicked to help them…
The link to Jewish terms was given 500 posts ago.
http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4677632&postcount=301
if one continues to look up terms in the Jewish encyclopedia they find the Kaddish to further explain that Jews pray for 1 year for the dead .
Kaddish (emphasis mine)
Kaddish is commonly known as a mourner’s prayer, but in fact, variations on the Kaddish prayer are routinely recited at many other times, and the prayer itself has nothing to do with death or mourning. The prayer begins “May His great Name grow exalted and sanctified in the world that He created as He willed. May He give reign to His kingship in your lifetimes and in your days …” and continues in much that vein. The real mourner’s prayer is El Molai Rachamim, which is recited at grave sites and during funerals.
Why, then, is Kaddish recited by mourners?
After a great loss like the death of a parent, you might expect a person to lose faith in G-d, or to cry out against G-d’s injustice. Instead, Judaism requires a mourner to stand up every day, publicly (i.e., in front of a minyan, a quorum of 10 adult men), and reaffirm faith in G-d despite this loss. To do so inures to the merit of the deceased in the eyes of G-d, because the deceased must have been a very good parent to raise a child who could express such faith in the face of personal loss.
Then why is Kaddish recited for only 11 months, when the mourning period is 12 months? According to Jewish tradition, the soul must spend some time purifying itself before it can enter the World to Come. The maximum time required for purification is 12 months, for the most evil person. To recite Kaddish for 12 months would imply that the parent was the type who needed 12 months of purification! To avoid this implication, the Sages decreed that a son should recite Kaddish for only eleven months.
A person is permitted to recite Kaddish for other close relatives as well as parents, but only if his parents are dead. See Mourners’ Kaddish for the full text of the Mourners’ Kaddish.
BTW,
The Kaddish would have been prayed at the last supper (passover meal) that Jesus celebrated.
I only bring this up because
- Catholics didn’t invent purgatory, or Mickey’s totally inappropriate “post schism” invention comment, Jews believe in purgatory as well. They just don’t call it that.
- the wicked according to Jewish tradition spend no more than 12 months in torment and purification. But souls go though purification after death in Jewish tradition.
As an aside, Jews use the word torment in their definition of purification of the wicked. So when one sees torment, in the language, even though it is gehinnom, to the Jew it lasts no longer than 1 year.
Paul doesn’t deny a purification occurs after we die, he confirms it. And Paul notes there is suffering that can go along with the purification. The parallels are very clear.
P
paul_c
Guest
Actually, I don’ thing so, Here is another part of the Catechism:
Here’s where it harmonizes. The dead in Purgatory are “expiating their sins”. If you look up expiation, it is synonymous with atonement and pennance. so the dead in Purgatory are surely undergoing pennance for their sins. however, as is also clear from both these CCC paragraphs, their pennance can be reduced by prayer and indulgences. Also, the prayers of those in Purgatory and in Heaven can help those on earth…
- Status